We ( 2 in our 40s) will be traveling through the Southwest this year for a 2 week period. Our road trip will start in Phoenix and end in Santa Fe (2 or 3 nights in these cities - we go to both places frequently).

We are hoping to visit the Grand Canyon South Rim (have been to the North Rim before) for a few days of hiking, then we will continue on to Canyon de Chelly and Mesa Verde (Durango area) before ending in NM.

We are both in decent shape and enjoy hikes of 3 - 7 miles. How many nights would you recommend in the Grand Canyon area, considering the other places we'll be visiting? Also, is El Tovar the place to stay, or would you recommend any other hotel?

Thanks!

> How many nights would you recommend
> in the Grand Canyon area

I would recommend one full day for below Rim hiking, in which you go down the Bright Angel Trail until you decide to turn back. That might be 1.5 Mile House or it might be Panorama Point, but the advantage of the BrAnTr is that you have great flexibility in where to turn-around.

The hike would involve starting the hike down as early as possible, and staying within the Park after you come back up. This would involve a minimum of two nights within the NP. The day before your hike, I would suggest you view the South Rim from as many overlooks and times of the day as possible.

El Tovar is the best place to stay, but also the most expensive. Its main advantage is that it is so close to the Rim that it takes just a minute to get there. For less the half the price of El Tovar, you can stay in Bright Angel Lodge, which is just as close. *HUGE* disclaimer, however -- the reason BrAn Lodge is so inexpensive is because of shared bathrooms and no more than two people per bedroom. I had no problem with this, but it's not for everyone.

When are you going?

It would be easiest to have at least 2 nights there if you're going to spend one day hiking. Lodging recommendations depend on your comfort level - some people really want to be right on the rim and El Tovar is the most upscale hotel there. If that doesn't matter to you, then any of the other lodges will be OK.

I would disagree with the Bright Angel trail recommendation, especially for people who want to hike only 3-7 miles. BA is in a side canyon and once below the rim, the views are somewhat restricted. At most, you'd make it a little ways past the 3-mile Resthouse and then have to turn back, and you'll be hiking amongst hordes of tourists.

A much better option with far superior views is the South Kaibab Trail. You will need to take a park shuttle to get there, but it's worth it. Far fewer people and after a mile the views really open up. Skeleton Point is 3 miles down and would be a good turnaround spot. There are 3 things to consider for S. Kaibab: 1) it's a bit steeper than Bright Angel, so tougher on your knees and legs, 2) there's little shade past the 1st mile, so in summer you need to start early, and 3) there are no water sources anywhere on the trail, so you need to pack enough for the entire hike.

One correction for PaulRabe---some Bright Angel Lodge rooms do have ensuite bathrooms. A double with bath there is $86, still half the price of a room at El Tovar. Or you could get a cabin (with bath) for $106.

We have stayed at both, and Bright Angel is fine, but we love the lovely and historic El Tovar. They put out coffee and tea in the mezzanine lounge at 7 am (free). We like to grab a cup and head out for a walk along the rim while the sun is coming up.

As for the hikes, we have been up and down both trails a couple of times, and agree with TheWeasel that South Kaibab provides better views. Last April is provided better hiking too, as Bright Angel was badly pitted. But the previous year (2006) SK was the trail with the pits, so it can change.

We have also hiked the Hermit Trail (at the west end of the west rim drive) and part of the Grandview Trail. These are much less crowded and a bit steeper and rougher. Unfortunately one of our group suffered from vertigo and had to turn back on the Grandview Trail, so we had to turn back. But it looked like a nice hike.

You can also walk the west rim trail as far as you like, and take the shuttle back (check the schedule for shuttle stops, as the bus does not stop at every one on the inbound trip).

We just got back from the GC and stayed at both the Thunderbird and Bright Angel. The Thunderbird is one of the worst hotels I've ever stayed in. Luckily, they refunded us all our money. We had a cabin at Bright Angel, and it had a shower and was much better than the Thunderbird next door. You also get a parking spot right in front of your cabin. We went to El Tovar for dinner and it looked very nice. I think 2 nights in the Grand Canyon are more than enough.

As far as hiking, the South Kaibab has amazing views.

Two nights are "more than enough"? Not if you are a hiker or a photographer.

Another vote for South Kaibab. The views are amazing! The trail was not as difficult as we expected. We made it to the first rest area (Cedar Point I think) but I wish we would have gone further. In my opinions, the views from this trail were more dramatic than Bright Angel.

If you are going in the winter time, I would suggest buying a pair of Yak Trax (crampons). They really made the hike much easier!

I really love those historic Bright Angel cabins. They really add to the National Park experience. I'm guessing as avid hikers you'd like them more than an upscale hotel. I'd say three nights if you want to spend a day hiking along the south rim, as well as taking a day hike as PaulRabe suggested.

It seems clear that I am out-voted as far as which trail to hike down. I won't disagree that the South Kaibab is more scenic, but permit me to explain why I still recommend the Bright Angel for FIRST TIME hiking in a desert canyon.

The major problem you have concerning hiking in The Canyon is that it is so different from any other hiking you might have done in the past. Too many people think they can handle it just because they've done other hiking elsewhere. Unfortunately, this just isn't true -- the combination of steepness, heat, dryness, sun, no shade, and that you end with the worst part of the hike, have left innumerable people failing to properly gauge the ratio of their abilities with the Canyon's challenge. Worse, you can't properly know how well you can handle this combination till you actually take on the task. Worse still, the Canyon is VERY unforgiving of those who miscalculate.

To minimize this risk, I always suggest the Bright Angel for a FIRST hike. It is less steep than the Kaibab, as well having more shade, more water (the SK has none of either), more places to stop, and more hikers to assist you if you do mis-judge. In other words, it's a lot more forgiving of error.

I can't disagree with those who say that this isn't worth what you lose in scenery, and that the risk while hiking on the SK can be minimized by proper preparation or by choosing a reasonable spot to turn around. Indeed, I may be completely wrong in my view -- but I did want to explain how I arrived at it.

PaulRabe, while your cautions are very sensible for an inexperienced hiker, I have looked at LilRicky's "hiking resume", and would not classify them as naive or lacking in mountain AND desert experience.

Here's their response on another thread: "I am a hiker, and have hiked the Alps, the Andes, the Himalayas, Cascades, Rocky Mountain West, US Southwest and Northeast." So it's not like they are "first-timers" at Southwest hiking. And hiking in the Andes, Alps, and Himalayas proves that they understand the effects of altitude and elevation gain.

And I have to disagree that the South Kaibab is more difficult or noticeably steeper than the Bright Angel. The SK loses 4780 feet over 6.4 miles; the BA loses 4450 feet over 7.7 miles (to the river; the remaining 2.6 of the 9.3 mile total traverse above the river to reach the campground). So there's really not much difference in difficulty, especially for someone who is only going partway down as they will.

The main difference is in the lack of water on the SK, but that is, as we say in the legal profession, "a distinction without a difference", because any experienced hiker knows to carry plenty of water and not rely on other sources.

Yes, one will encounter more people on the BA, but that is not necessarily a safety factor. Most of them are non-hikers wearing silly shoes, and would be unable to help if one needed help. You will find more experienced and equipped fellow hikers on the SK. That is also the only trail on which I have ever seen a ranger.

So . . . I know you are the local expert and just being cautious, but in this case I don't think it is necessary. If you agree that the SK is more scenic, I am quite sure they can handle it safely.

<The SK loses 4780 feet over 6.4 miles; the BA loses 4450 feet over 7.7 miles. So there's really not much difference in difficulty, especially for someone who is only going partway down as they will.>

Just a quick comment on this: the numbers are accurate, but the conclusion is not IMO. Pointing out the total mileage and elevation loss is irrelevant for someone hiking only partway. That 330 foot difference in elevation loss doesn't look like much spread out over the total difference, but it all comes in the first 1.5 miles. The upper portion of SK is significantly and noticeably steeper, and since OP is doing a relatively short hike, that steep section is going to comprise much more of the total than for someone going all the way to the river.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses and help!

When you leave Phoneix it is about 2 hours to Flagstaff and maybe 1/2 hr to 45 minutes past Flagstaff is the left hand turn to the South Rim. At the Grand Canyon, I would suggest you stay at the Cabins on the top first night and then take the mule ride down Bright Angel and spend the night at Phantom Ranch. It's a great way to experience the Canyon. You'll have lunch at Indian Gardens and wind down through Devil's corkscrew and over a suspended bridge and see the Colorado River beneath you. Sitting at the glass dining room at El Tovar will be great when you are too old to experience the canyon by hiking or riding mules down. We called the Park and reserved the cabin, with a wood burning fireplace and just a stone's throw from El Tavor so you have an amazing view watching the sun come up before you head over to the Stone Coral and get paired up with the mule you'll ride down one day and up the next. You're up by noon, as you come up a different and steeper route out(Kaibab). Kaibab is really too steep for mules or humans to hike, down hurts most people's knees) You'll catch the road through Tuba City, Kayenta, and 4 Corners (where Utah, Colorado, Arizona and NM all meet at one spot) and on to Cortez. Cortez is 10 miles from Mesa Verde's entrance. Or you can go on to Durango which is an hour from Cortez and then back track about 40 miles the next day to the entrance to Mesa Verde. In Mesa Verde you will want to make it a point to go to Balcony House which is the most unique ruin in the park. You have to climb up a 50ft ladder to get out and crawl for about 6 feet through a crevice, cave like entrance to get in. They make it sound more streneous than it really is. Then go to the Museum and walk down from there to Spruce Tree House Ruin which has a kiva that you can go down in.(ceremonial room for the Anazasi Indians 800 yrs ago.)My family homesteaded in this area about 90 years ago and so I know and love the southwest. Canyon De Chelly is on the way to Santa Fe. However, while you are in Durango, there are quite a few things in this area that could keep you entertained.

ttt

jsimmons - thanks! I agree that it is best to get out and hike (while we still can). How do we get reservations for the Phantom Ranch excursion?

I also appreciate the Mesa Verde info... so you suggest Canyon de Chelly AFTER Mesa Verde, and on the way to Santa Fe? Should we overnight at Canyon de Chelly?

Go back to the North Rim South Rim way to crowded

There many great hikes in Sedona, if you have the time plan on staying a couple of nights there and hiking, as well as the Grand Canyon.
Travel time from Sedona to Grand Canyon 2.20 hrs. Sedona is 45mins. south of Flagstaff off of Highway 17.

Reposting a bit of my trip report:


We arrived at the Grand Canyon at 3:30 PM or so. From this entrance we were about 25 miles from our hotel. After paying the $25.00 entrance fee (good for a week) we headed to the Watchtower (right at the entrance). This is a 4 level tower and is the highest viewing point. The view was incredible. It went on for miles. It is indescribable and a picture can’t capture what we saw – lots of colors and ranges in height. In the gift shop we learned that the Canyon is 10,000 square miles. The tower itself was unique. The middle was open so that you could look from ceiling to basement. The walls were covered with colorful Indian paintings. There was a telescope on the 4th floor that read, “Focus your camera near the hole and take a picture”. The hole was the size of a dime. I think they did this as a joke to see how many stupid tourists would try it (yes, I tried).

There was a book in the gift shop that outlined all the deaths at the Grand Canyon. It was very thick.

We next stopped at Lipan Point. John got a bit too close to the edge for my liking – we made a pact that he had to stay five feet from the edge (at least while I was looking). Although there is some fencing most of the area is unprotected. The view was great – unobstructed views of some rapids (bring binoculars).

The next stop was Moran Point (named after a landscape painter). As I was exiting the car, there was a giant sized bird on the car hood next to me. He was evil looking. John had to go scare him away before I could exit the car. Here we were able to climb down on some rocks. The view was beautiful (as were all the others).

We then stopped at Grandview Point – home to an old hotel which closed in the early 1900’s. In the 1900’s travel to the hotel consisted of a 12 hour stage coach ride from Flagstaff (it took us less than 2 hours from Flagstaff). There was a sign there that a 24 year old girl who had completed the Boston Marathon in less than three hours died here in 2004 from dehydration. She left for a hike with 1.5 liters of water, an apple and two energy bars. She got lost and didn’t have a map. I am glad that we are going on a guided hike.

As we arrived into the hotel area we noticed two deer on the railroad tracks. We stopped to take photos. They didn’t seem to be afraid of people.

We checked into the Maswik Hotel and got a room in Willow #6927. It’s nice – a very large bed and a rustic look. It’s the only hotel away from the rim, but it was less than a five minute walk to get to the rim. We immediately headed off to catch the shuttle bus to sunset (no cars allowed). We headed to Hopi Point and just made the last shuttle bus by minutes. The light was perfect – unfortunately we were on the bus during the perfect picture taking light. We met three women from Salem, Lynnfield and Peabody, MA.

We arrived at Hopi Point just in time to see the sunset. We missed the good light by seconds but got some great shots of the sun going down. The place was jam packed with people. It was the funniest thing – the second that the sun set, 99% of them jumped on the bus and headed back to the hotels. The best part of the sunset was after the sunset. The sky went purple/pink to pink to orange. It was beautiful but only about 10 of us saw it. I met a guy who had just vacationed in Lenox at the Kripali Center where the Ultrametabolism writer gives lectures (I just finished reading the book a few weeks ago).

We grabbed a shuttle back and walked to the room. We shared a bottle of Mondavi that I bought earlier then set off for our dinner reservations at the Tovar (the only fine dining around).

The walk to El Tovar was wonderful. It was a perfect fall evening and there were zillion of sparkling stars in the sky, more than I have ever seen. It was quite romantic. The El Tovar itself was a bit of a let down. The food was about the same quality as an Applebees but twice the price. Our waitress had the personality of a rock (or maybe even worse than a rock). The building was old (built in 1901) and looked as though it hadn’t been updated in quite awhile. John had Salmon (with rice that tasted grainy and bland), I had penne with lots of veggies. It was okay but I wouldn’t make a special trip. The wine was very good. Even though we skipped dessert our meal was $70 with tip (and I only left 10% which is very unlike me).

It took about 10 minutes to walk home. We were both beat. John was especially tired as he did a bike ride today and then did all the driving (girls aren’t allowed to drive…).

Today we were up at 6:30 AM and headed over to the hotel for breakfast. We had kind of gross food. I got a breakfast burrito and a bowl of oatmeal that could have fed a family of eight. After seeing my portions John got an English muffin, to eggs and a yogurt. We bought a bunch of water. As we were packing up our guide Madeline found us just as John was complaining that I bought too much. She informed us that we’d need it all.

We headed off in her car for the bus that would take us to the trail head. We were a bit concerned because she got a bit lost in both the car and in figuring out the bus system. She told us not to worry that she knew the trails well. We arrived at the trail head and started off at about 9:00 AM.

We hiked down for three miles to Skeleton Point on the Kaibab Trail. We passed some great scenery and different views. Parts of the hike down were a bit steep but it was all very safe on a wide dirt path. We passed a few groups of mules and lots of smelly mule poop on the trail. We drank lots of water, had snacks and heard some interesting facts about the area and Madeline’s life – she is currently undergoing treatments for breast cancer. Having just had chemo a few weeks ago and she was hiking. It was amazing (she is 56). She is divorced and has 2 kids in their 20’s. Her ex-husband was a priest. He did something bad (not pedophilia) but she didn’t specify what he did.

During our journey, we passed two other people with Red Sox hats. John had a bit of a coughing fit and a few weird chest pains as we started back up. We think he just got some red dust in his throat. The dust covered everything – legs, socks, cameras, face. We arrived back at the top at 2PM. We rested quite a bit on the way up there were lots of areas where it was like walking up steps – tough on the legs. Madeline warned us not to wash our red dust clothes with anything else. She said that the red acts as a dye and turns everything else red (we later found this to be very true!!)

On the way back we spotted a large Elk standing near the road. We stopped to take a few photos. Madeline dropped us off and we headed over to the campground to take showers for $1.50 each. We had no towels so we had to use our clothes. John wanted to go track down some condors. Condors are huge black birds with a wing span of 8+ feet. They are almost extinct as there are only about 40 or so left in the world. We headed over to the spot where they hang out in the afternoons near the El Tovar but didn’t see any. It was kind of a bummer because someone told us that there were lots of them flying around in that spot the prior afternoon.

I took a walk down to the gallery to see a photography exhibit of some Grand Canyon photos (about ½ mile past the Tovar) while John kept an eye out for birds. The photography exhibit was great – lots of great photos including lightening, rainbow and snow shots.

When I returned we continued to look for Condors. We met a guy who worked in the Condor program. The birds are all tagged and they are kept track of electronically. He talked to us for awhile about the program. He told us that two condor’s were nearby within a few miles. Some guy walked up and told us that he saw a bobcat just below us. We watched as the bobcat caught a squirrel and had it for dinner. He then started walking along the rim underneath us (about 10 to 20 feet away). We stalked him for over an hour and got some great photos. This was definitely one of our top five experiences thus far on our trip, as was today’s hike. I was having a bit of anxiety though because John was climbing on rocks very close to the edge to get bobcat photos.

We decided to stay for sunset since it was so late. We sat out on the El Tovar deck (which is right on the rim) and ordered Diet Cokes, artichoke dip and nachos. The food was pretty gross (worse than Applebees – soggy nachos and the spinach tasted like it came from a can) but we were hungry. We then took a bunch of sunset photos. The sunset was incredible – lots more pink than last night.

We headed off around 7 PM to Hualapai for tomorrow’s river raft ride. We were both very tired. John did very well driving. It is on historic Route 66. We arrived at exactly 9 PM. When we arrived we found that our reservation had been cancelled sometime in August. At first the receptionist said that she didn’t think that there were any rooms. She then said that she had one smoking room. After checking us in, she told us that they lock the door at 9:00 PM. We were soooooooo lucky. Five more minutes and we would have been sleeping in the mini van. There’s nothing else around here for miles and miles.

The room doesn’t smell like smoke but it’s pretty yucky. The sheets are really old and a grayish white. I found a black hair on my pillow and another on my sheet. The hotel is like a bad Holiday Inn but it’s a place to sleep. This is going to be something to tell stories about later. The train runs about 300 yards behind the hotel. We had been in the room for only 20 minutes and four trains passed. It’s going to be a long night!!

Thursday, September 14, 2006
It was like a scene from a bad movie. The train drove by every 15 to 20 minutes blowing its horn for 30 seconds the entire night. Neither of us slept at all. We headed to the breakfast buffet at 7:00 AM and ate a nice breakfast filled with transfat and saturated fat. After breakfast we noticed the sign at the front desk that warned of the approaching train every 15 to 20 minutes and offered ear plugs.

After breakfast we loaded the big yellow school bus and headed down a bumpy dirt road for the hour ride to the boat launch. Despite John’s lack of sleep he was only a little cynical. We had a really good laugh about how the last 12 hours had gone. John had me in tears I was laughing so hard as he recounted the events. Given the events so far we were a bit worried about the raft ride.

We didn’t need to be. It was a great experience. We were assigned to raft # 5 with a couple from Ohio (who had matching flip flops – they were nice but a bit dorky) and with a couple originally from San Francisco who had just moved to Vegas. They owned a travel adventure company. They were really nice and interesting.

We headed downstream on our motorized raft with our 24 year old Indian guide, Randy. We hit a bunch of rapids (class 3 & 4) during the first 30 minute. The water was cold (45 degrees) but the air was warm so it was fun. We made a stop at a waterfall. We had to hike up using ropes and ladders (not easy in flip flops) but it was well worth it – John stood under it for a quick shower. It was nice – all I had was a throw away camera though 

Soon we stopped for lunch. We had a really large sub with turkey, ham and bacon – very dry (and unhealthy). After lunch we continued down the river just floating. The rapids were done. The views of the west canyon were really beautiful. The river was brown because of all the silt that it carries. At one point we got stuck in a sand bar. We all piled out of the raft and helped push it to a deeper section. We got stuck in a thunder/lightening storm for a few minutes (which scares me) but it passed over quickly. Overall we got a great day it was rainy at some points, overcast and cloudy with some periods of sunshine. It was perfect, not too hot and not too cold. John was a bit cold in his tee shirt and cute red bathing suit (or do I mean he was a fashion disaster). I brought a raincoat so I stayed pretty warm.

As we exited the raft, John was standing in line for the porta potty. A woman went in ahead of him. A few seconds later a helicopter flew directly over the porta potty. The door flew open. The woman stood up and tried to pull her shirt down to hide herself. John and the woman were both very embarrassed.

We took a helicopter out of the canyon. The ride lasted about 5 minutes but it was really great seeing the Colorado River and the Grand Canyon from above. No camera though  I got to sit in the front seat of the helicopter. It was awesome.

We had to wait at the gift shop for the rest of our group. While there we grabbed a brochure about Grand Canyon West. An Indian guy came up to us grabbed our brochure and signed it without telling us who he was. I asked him if he was famous. He responded that he was. It turns out that his father is the chief. He is the guy in the brochure picture (and also has his picture on the tour buses. He told us that they are building a skywalk that will be opening soon. It’s going to be an all glass skywalk that extends 4,000 feet over the Canyon (the Sears Tower is only 1,450 feet high).

We had a 2 ½ hour bus ride back to Peach Springs mostly on dirt roads. John was a bit cranky but overall he did well. We did stop for a bathroom break about ½ way – females behind the bushes and men behind the bus. There was a group on the bus traveling with the “elder hostel”. I have to given them credit for going down the river. Two of the women were in their 80’s. They rafted, took the helicopter and peed behind a bush. It was amazing. I hope I can do that when I am their age!! I felt bad for one of them. When she stopped to pee she took her pants completely off and then had a hard time getting them back on.

On the ride home we passed a Texas Longhorn lying in the road and we saw a road runner.

We arrived home around 6 PM. I had a glass of wine (the stuff we brought with us). The Reservation is dry since there is a real problem with alcoholism. Many of the Indians are obese and there is a diabetes issue. Their expected lifespan is 58 years old. It’s really sad.

The hotel had an Indian band in the lobby. They were cute.

We ate in the hotel restaurant (our only choice). The food was actually excellent and only cost us $34. We split beef flautas with spicy salsa. John had pork chops and I had spaghetti with a meat sauce made with celery, onions & tomato and garlic bread. We also had salads with good dressing. It’s the best meal that we’ve had in a few days.

I did some laundry ($1 wash/.50 dry), we both checked e-mail on the computer in the hotel lobby, we watched some TV, took Benedryl, inserted ear plugs and headed off to bed (at 8 PM). Overall we had a great day.

Thanks to all who have answered my specific questions.

I have been to the North Rim.

I have been to Sedona several times, staying at Enchantment and hiking through out the area and up into Oak Creek Canyon.

TheWeasel----I stand corrected; I found a topo map with waypoint elevations I could read, both at 1.5 mile Resthouse Cedar Ridge. The SK trail does indeed lose much more elevation in the first 1.5 miles---about 1900 feet compared to 1200. With all those steps, it is hard to tell. All I know is we like that trail; it gets you down into the beautiful part of the canyon more quickly. My favorite part is the last traverse and drop to Black Bridge.

LilRicky----you asked about reservations for Phantom Ranch. They are very hard to obtain---people call one year in advance, the day the reservation line opens up, and all the spots fill within the first hour or so. But some people have to cancel later, so openings do show up. The only way to find out is by calling Xanterra (888-297-2757). Hikers generally have to accept a spot in the dorms (separate for men and women). Cabins are first reserved for mule riders, but if the original riders cancel, they may offer the cabins to hikers. Both times we have been there, we have met hikers who lucked into a cancellation by calling a week or two before.

There is information here:

http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/phantom-ranch-427.html

The other way to spend a night or two at the bottom of the canyon is to get a permit to camp at Bright Angel campground, about 1/4 mile from Phantom. The permits are difficult to obtain as well, but depending on when you are going, you may still be able to apply for one. This is backpacking, and you need to provide all your gear---tent, sleeping bag, etc. But if you have the gear, it is the best way to spend a night in the canyon; we find the campground much more pleasant than the dorms at Phantom.