Going back to San Francisco
Jun 20th, 2002, 03:08 PM
#21
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Weep, I won't even get into the SF debate (I live in San Jose, which is great to live in but hardly a tourist destination except in that it's close to other things like SF that people really do want to see) but have you even ever read the Christian Science Monitor? It's very middle of the road, leaning more towards the liberal than not I'd say. It's the only way in this area to get complete coverage of international events. I would tend to believe it's more unbiased than most papers.
Jun 20th, 2002, 03:19 PM
#22
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monica-Thank you for a civil and
non-cut and paste reply. The question to you is do you still go to SF an have a good time? We do all the time. This problem and the people have never bothered us and it's not due to the fact that we ignore them.
I guess it's easier to attempt a backhanded boycott of a city than it is to help solve the problem.
non-cut and paste reply. The question to you is do you still go to SF an have a good time? We do all the time. This problem and the people have never bothered us and it's not due to the fact that we ignore them.
I guess it's easier to attempt a backhanded boycott of a city than it is to help solve the problem.
Jun 20th, 2002, 03:32 PM
#23
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To try to partially answer the original question and as an unbiased Palo Altan who thinks this is an inane argument, The Fairmont was renovated about 4 years ago. We had the pleasure of spending a meeting weekend up there last Spring, and they have really done a gorgeous job. All the old red flocked wall paper is gone and it is done in restful earth tones and gold. Still a wonderful hotel in a wonderful setting. Our group overfilled the ballroom for dinner but staff were professional and caring. Only downside was that I think it cost us $32 a day to park our car.
Jun 20th, 2002, 03:56 PM
#24
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Hi GC:
I think everyone has a dream of winning the lottery. But if you need help finding something nice and affordable, I think I can give you a hand.
Hotel: Either the Fairmont of The Mark Hopkins are great choices. They are just right across from each other and both are four star hotels. I like the M Hopkins for the spectacular views (taller than the Fairmont) and it has a great bar on the top floor of the hotel. You can see the whole city, so if you don't stay there, at least go there for a drink. It's called :Top of the Mark. The Fairmont also has The Tonga Room, where they have great appetizers surrounded by a man made rain forrest.
I would also check out the newly opened Four Seasons Hotel on Market Street and the infamous Ritz-Carlton. The rates might be the same for all four of these hotels. Look out for specials.
Restaurant: I have not been to the Blue Fox or Schroeder's. I like the Carnelian Room for drinks, the food did not impress me. A couple of my favorite restaurants are: Expensive: Aqua, Boulevard, Kokkari, Fifth Floor, Dining Room at Ritz-Carlton, Fleur de Lys (all time fav) Moderate: Delfina, Butterfly, Bix, Chris Steak House, Crustaceans.
City gone downhill: Every city has its ups and downs. Part of the reason would probably be the global problem with the economy. I have lived here all my life and can not imagine living anywhere else. There are definitely certain spots to stay away from, but every city has those spots! Judge for yourself.
If you need additional help, feel free to email me.
Good Luck,
Lucy
I think everyone has a dream of winning the lottery. But if you need help finding something nice and affordable, I think I can give you a hand.
Hotel: Either the Fairmont of The Mark Hopkins are great choices. They are just right across from each other and both are four star hotels. I like the M Hopkins for the spectacular views (taller than the Fairmont) and it has a great bar on the top floor of the hotel. You can see the whole city, so if you don't stay there, at least go there for a drink. It's called :Top of the Mark. The Fairmont also has The Tonga Room, where they have great appetizers surrounded by a man made rain forrest.
I would also check out the newly opened Four Seasons Hotel on Market Street and the infamous Ritz-Carlton. The rates might be the same for all four of these hotels. Look out for specials.
Restaurant: I have not been to the Blue Fox or Schroeder's. I like the Carnelian Room for drinks, the food did not impress me. A couple of my favorite restaurants are: Expensive: Aqua, Boulevard, Kokkari, Fifth Floor, Dining Room at Ritz-Carlton, Fleur de Lys (all time fav) Moderate: Delfina, Butterfly, Bix, Chris Steak House, Crustaceans.
City gone downhill: Every city has its ups and downs. Part of the reason would probably be the global problem with the economy. I have lived here all my life and can not imagine living anywhere else. There are definitely certain spots to stay away from, but every city has those spots! Judge for yourself.
If you need additional help, feel free to email me.
Good Luck,
Lucy
Jun 20th, 2002, 07:58 PM
#25
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Weep: No, we don't go to the City much mostly because we're not too into the late nights and the drive back home is a killer. We did spend our fifth anniversary in SF and my only gripe was that it was impossible to park anywhere--we could have driven home in the time it took us to get where we were going. But that's easily solved by taking public transport, as is wisely advised repeatedly on this forum. We also go to the Zoo frequently with our toddler.
Jun 21st, 2002, 06:12 AM
#26
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Daria, Kam and Lucy,
Thanks for the input. I wasn't sure if the Tonga room was still there! And, yes, I'm sure I could have looked for it on the website.
This was, and is, a serious question. I'm not sure if and when we're going...if we hit the lottery, we'll probably fly Saturday AM...if we don't, I guess we'll actually have to budget for the trip....bummer.
What is really fascinating is the level of emotion that this city brings up. I guess that means that the SF bashers really love the place, and see it as gone to hell. The SF defenders maybe see it as going from urban paradise to urban "normal", if there is such a thing.
I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Question, where on market is the Four Seasons?
My office used to be suite 1803, Steuart Twoer, One Market Plaza, as a reference point.
Thanks for the input. I wasn't sure if the Tonga room was still there! And, yes, I'm sure I could have looked for it on the website.
This was, and is, a serious question. I'm not sure if and when we're going...if we hit the lottery, we'll probably fly Saturday AM...if we don't, I guess we'll actually have to budget for the trip....bummer.
What is really fascinating is the level of emotion that this city brings up. I guess that means that the SF bashers really love the place, and see it as gone to hell. The SF defenders maybe see it as going from urban paradise to urban "normal", if there is such a thing.
I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Question, where on market is the Four Seasons?
My office used to be suite 1803, Steuart Twoer, One Market Plaza, as a reference point.
Jun 21st, 2002, 07:01 AM
#27
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gc, For some reason, we've been to
SF 4-5 times this year already (sometimes we only go once a year-we live in the Sacto area) and we seem to have more problems with rude tourists than the local drunks, homeless, etc.
And it always seems to be a lot more tourists than homeless, drunks, etc.
Each trip we've had this year has been great. In fact, I really can't recall a bad trip to SF, other than getting stuck in some traffic jams. Especially when the Embarcdero Freeway was around and your car is overheating!
The Carnelian Room still has one of the best views of any restarant in the world. And when I hit the lotto, I intend to eat at every restaurant (will not fly So'west on the way back, tho) in the world and find out if it is true!
Kal
ps-We'll be back in SF for another weekend on 7-27/28 for the Giants/Dodgers series. Park Hyatt or Harbour Court? Hmmmm.
SF 4-5 times this year already (sometimes we only go once a year-we live in the Sacto area) and we seem to have more problems with rude tourists than the local drunks, homeless, etc.
And it always seems to be a lot more tourists than homeless, drunks, etc.
Each trip we've had this year has been great. In fact, I really can't recall a bad trip to SF, other than getting stuck in some traffic jams. Especially when the Embarcdero Freeway was around and your car is overheating!
The Carnelian Room still has one of the best views of any restarant in the world. And when I hit the lotto, I intend to eat at every restaurant (will not fly So'west on the way back, tho) in the world and find out if it is true!
Kal
ps-We'll be back in SF for another weekend on 7-27/28 for the Giants/Dodgers series. Park Hyatt or Harbour Court? Hmmmm.
Jun 21st, 2002, 08:39 AM
#29
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GC-
With regards to places to stay (and money wasn't an issue), I'd look at the Ritz Carlton and Mandarin Oriental. The Omni just opened in the Financial District, across from the BankAmerica Building. It looks beautiful in the lobby, but I haven't seen the rooms.
The Blue Fox closed quite a while ago. I think Alfred's (an old SF steakhouse) moved into the space. Good steaks at Alfred's, by the way. Schroeder's is still around and I think it's the same (food-wise). The Carnelian Room still has the wonderful views.
Lots of great restaurants in the City. Just depends on the types of food you like --> Boulevard, Chaya Brasserie (Asian), Aziza (Moroccan), Ti Couz (crepes), Slanted Door (Vietnamese), Foreign Cinema (great food w/ movies playing on an outdoor screen in the patio), Cafe Bastille (French), Yank Sing (Chinese dim sum). Check out www.sfgate.com for a list of the 100 best restaurants in the Bay Area. The site also lists the best Cheap Eats in the Bay Area.
Have fun.
With regards to places to stay (and money wasn't an issue), I'd look at the Ritz Carlton and Mandarin Oriental. The Omni just opened in the Financial District, across from the BankAmerica Building. It looks beautiful in the lobby, but I haven't seen the rooms.
The Blue Fox closed quite a while ago. I think Alfred's (an old SF steakhouse) moved into the space. Good steaks at Alfred's, by the way. Schroeder's is still around and I think it's the same (food-wise). The Carnelian Room still has the wonderful views.
Lots of great restaurants in the City. Just depends on the types of food you like --> Boulevard, Chaya Brasserie (Asian), Aziza (Moroccan), Ti Couz (crepes), Slanted Door (Vietnamese), Foreign Cinema (great food w/ movies playing on an outdoor screen in the patio), Cafe Bastille (French), Yank Sing (Chinese dim sum). Check out www.sfgate.com for a list of the 100 best restaurants in the Bay Area. The site also lists the best Cheap Eats in the Bay Area.
Have fun.
Jun 21st, 2002, 08:47 AM
#30
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cg, The Sheraton Palce is still the Palace.
I believe it went thru some major remodeling around 8-10yrs ago and it is, once again, a beautiful hotel!
We stayed there a few months after it was reopened. Very nice, old smallish rooms, high ceilings, tile bathrooms.
Like the Westin-St Francis' old wing.
Some good restaurants too. Must be very nice restaurants since they asked me to leave (kindly "suggested" I go to themore casual bar area) due to my shorts and Hawaiian shirt!
Kal
I believe it went thru some major remodeling around 8-10yrs ago and it is, once again, a beautiful hotel!
We stayed there a few months after it was reopened. Very nice, old smallish rooms, high ceilings, tile bathrooms.
Like the Westin-St Francis' old wing.
Some good restaurants too. Must be very nice restaurants since they asked me to leave (kindly "suggested" I go to themore casual bar area) due to my shorts and Hawaiian shirt!
Kal
Jun 21st, 2002, 08:59 AM
#31
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Hi gc:
As a previous poster pointed out, the Palace is still there. It's no longer the "Sheraton" Palace, but just "The Palace", even the sign changed. It's still a Starwood property, but now part of the Luxury Collection. Not sure if you needed that much info, but there it is.
Secondly, the Four Seasons is very near The Palace, on the south side of Market between Third and Fourth.
If I won the lottery and were visiting SF, I might consider spending a night at the Claremont resort if Berkeley. I've heard the views are to die for. And it's apparently one of the best urban spas in America. I like to promote Berekeley whenever I can
hehe
As a previous poster pointed out, the Palace is still there. It's no longer the "Sheraton" Palace, but just "The Palace", even the sign changed. It's still a Starwood property, but now part of the Luxury Collection. Not sure if you needed that much info, but there it is.
Secondly, the Four Seasons is very near The Palace, on the south side of Market between Third and Fourth.
If I won the lottery and were visiting SF, I might consider spending a night at the Claremont resort if Berkeley. I've heard the views are to die for. And it's apparently one of the best urban spas in America. I like to promote Berekeley whenever I can
hehe
Jun 21st, 2002, 09:16 AM
#32
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GC:
San Francisco is a dysfunctional city, and here is why.
It is ungovernable. The city of cute cable cars has abandoned large swathes of the city center to 5,000 vagrants, mostly alcoholics, drug abusers and the mentally ill. Homeless advocates, taking San Francisco's famed tolerance to ridiculous extremes, defend their lifestyle choice. The mayor, Willie Brown, has given up. Imagine New York, before Rudy Giuliani took office, except more corrupt and lethargic.
Supposedly cosmopolitan, San Francisco is in fact a collection of separatist ghettos. Mexicans live in the Mission, Gays live in the Castro, Chinese out in Sunset, and transient yuppies in the Marina; and they avoid each other as much as possible.
The city is entirely lacking in glamour. The old money is inbred, and the new money is too geeky. The pretty people are in Los Angeles or Miami; the intellectuals are in New York; and the carpetbaggers left as quickly as they came. San Francisco's Clift must be the only Ian Schrager hotel where visitors pitch up with their tradeshow tote bags.
Culturally, the city is still eating out on its reputation as home to Beat writers such as Allen Ginsburg. That was nearly fifty years ago now. In the meantime, San Francisco has produced Danielle Steel, and that is about it. Of the wilder writers I know, most have moved down to Los Angeles, which is warmer and cheaper and, believe it or not, culturally far more vibrant.
The Ballet is world-class, I am told, but there is something cringing about San Francisco's pride in stuffy European arts, as if it were still a raw frontier town hankering after the latest fashions from Paris.
Well, what about the alternative scene? The Yo-Yo man, a 300-pound mound of a man who dazzles with yo-yos. Where else, a San Francisco booster asked, would someone feel so free to express themselves? A typical San Francisco misconception. Personal discovery is rarely interesting and, in most normal cities, robustly ignored.
The main reason: San Francisco is not a metropolis on the scale of London or New York. San Francisco city is home to fewer than 1m people; and the 5m people in the Bay Area, as a whole are dispersed. And many inhabitants are unsure whether they actually want to be a grown-up city one day: local politics is dominated by neighbourhood groups which oppose new building.
Oh, yes, and the weather isn't that great. People think California, balmy. Evenings in San Francisco, which is closer to the icy ocean, are uniformly chilly; you can never sit out in the evening; and summer days in the city are too often fogbound and miserable.
During the economic boom of the 1990's, the region attracted thousands of highly-educated professionals from the East Coast of the US, and from Europe. And many of them are leaving because they are used to the buzz, wit, and bustle of a big city, and they are bored. San Francisco never quite achieved critical mass.
And those who will be left? The anti-social geeks, and the obsessives for whom the dream of changing the world is compensation for the lack of metropolitan amenities.
San Francisco is a dysfunctional city, and here is why.
It is ungovernable. The city of cute cable cars has abandoned large swathes of the city center to 5,000 vagrants, mostly alcoholics, drug abusers and the mentally ill. Homeless advocates, taking San Francisco's famed tolerance to ridiculous extremes, defend their lifestyle choice. The mayor, Willie Brown, has given up. Imagine New York, before Rudy Giuliani took office, except more corrupt and lethargic.
Supposedly cosmopolitan, San Francisco is in fact a collection of separatist ghettos. Mexicans live in the Mission, Gays live in the Castro, Chinese out in Sunset, and transient yuppies in the Marina; and they avoid each other as much as possible.
The city is entirely lacking in glamour. The old money is inbred, and the new money is too geeky. The pretty people are in Los Angeles or Miami; the intellectuals are in New York; and the carpetbaggers left as quickly as they came. San Francisco's Clift must be the only Ian Schrager hotel where visitors pitch up with their tradeshow tote bags.
Culturally, the city is still eating out on its reputation as home to Beat writers such as Allen Ginsburg. That was nearly fifty years ago now. In the meantime, San Francisco has produced Danielle Steel, and that is about it. Of the wilder writers I know, most have moved down to Los Angeles, which is warmer and cheaper and, believe it or not, culturally far more vibrant.
The Ballet is world-class, I am told, but there is something cringing about San Francisco's pride in stuffy European arts, as if it were still a raw frontier town hankering after the latest fashions from Paris.
Well, what about the alternative scene? The Yo-Yo man, a 300-pound mound of a man who dazzles with yo-yos. Where else, a San Francisco booster asked, would someone feel so free to express themselves? A typical San Francisco misconception. Personal discovery is rarely interesting and, in most normal cities, robustly ignored.
The main reason: San Francisco is not a metropolis on the scale of London or New York. San Francisco city is home to fewer than 1m people; and the 5m people in the Bay Area, as a whole are dispersed. And many inhabitants are unsure whether they actually want to be a grown-up city one day: local politics is dominated by neighbourhood groups which oppose new building.
Oh, yes, and the weather isn't that great. People think California, balmy. Evenings in San Francisco, which is closer to the icy ocean, are uniformly chilly; you can never sit out in the evening; and summer days in the city are too often fogbound and miserable.
During the economic boom of the 1990's, the region attracted thousands of highly-educated professionals from the East Coast of the US, and from Europe. And many of them are leaving because they are used to the buzz, wit, and bustle of a big city, and they are bored. San Francisco never quite achieved critical mass.
And those who will be left? The anti-social geeks, and the obsessives for whom the dream of changing the world is compensation for the lack of metropolitan amenities.
Jun 21st, 2002, 09:22 AM
#33
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James, Great suggestion on the Claremont. We keep forgetting about that place. I have to check out "biddingfortravel" and see if it's been available on P'line, Hotwire, et al.
Unless, of course, we win the lotto tomorrow night!
Last winning ticket was bought about 10 miles away from us. oooooooooh
We hit 5 of 6 numbers a few years back. Missed the 6th number by picking #30 instead of the picked #29. That close.
We still got around $2,000 and it was just a month or two before our trip to Kauai. Rather be lucky than good!
The hotels out on the Berkeley Marina are pretty nice, too.
His Lordship's still there with their great Sunday Brunch?
Kal
Unless, of course, we win the lotto tomorrow night!
Last winning ticket was bought about 10 miles away from us. oooooooooh
We hit 5 of 6 numbers a few years back. Missed the 6th number by picking #30 instead of the picked #29. That close.
We still got around $2,000 and it was just a month or two before our trip to Kauai. Rather be lucky than good!
The hotels out on the Berkeley Marina are pretty nice, too.
His Lordship's still there with their great Sunday Brunch?
Kal
Jun 21st, 2002, 09:40 AM
#34
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Marco, Thanks for your input.
I'm curious, tho.
Where do you go on vactions?
Any particular places you'd recommend?
I've see a lot of SF bashing here recently (some warranted-some, I feel not) but I seldom see a suggested alternative...and I don't wish to argue San Jose vs SF.
Thx,
kal
I'm curious, tho.
Where do you go on vactions?
Any particular places you'd recommend?
I've see a lot of SF bashing here recently (some warranted-some, I feel not) but I seldom see a suggested alternative...and I don't wish to argue San Jose vs SF.
Thx,
kal
Jun 21st, 2002, 10:13 AM
#35
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Not sure about the brunch place you mentioned. Maybe you mean the one at the Claremont? I've never actually been, but I've heard great things. Of course, the brunch in the Garden Court in The Palace and the brunch at the Ritz-Carlton always seem like popular choices.
If you are in Berkeley, head to La Note (Shattuck & Durant/Channing), a little french bistro type place. The pancakes are AMAZING. They have:
1) creme fraiche
2) lemon gingerbread with poached pears OR
3) oatmeal raspberry.
My pick are the lemon gingerbread. French toast there is great too (made with cinnamon brioche. YUMMM) The wait can be long and the service very french (hehe), but the coffee, pastries and food are to die for.
Oops, look like I've just been babbling about brunch.. maybe I'm hungry.
If you are in Berkeley, head to La Note (Shattuck & Durant/Channing), a little french bistro type place. The pancakes are AMAZING. They have:
1) creme fraiche
2) lemon gingerbread with poached pears OR
3) oatmeal raspberry.
My pick are the lemon gingerbread. French toast there is great too (made with cinnamon brioche. YUMMM) The wait can be long and the service very french (hehe), but the coffee, pastries and food are to die for.
Oops, look like I've just been babbling about brunch.. maybe I'm hungry.
Jun 21st, 2002, 12:12 PM
#37
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What Marco writes is actually pretty true. But, aside from the homeless problem, these issues probably don't matter to most tourists.
Most visitors go to San Francisco to see the GG Bridge, Fisherman's Wharf, Chinatown, Alcatraz; ride some pretty boats and cable cars, and eat some sourdough bread. Then they go home happy that they've "seen" the city.
Most visitors go to San Francisco to see the GG Bridge, Fisherman's Wharf, Chinatown, Alcatraz; ride some pretty boats and cable cars, and eat some sourdough bread. Then they go home happy that they've "seen" the city.
Jun 21st, 2002, 12:49 PM
#38
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James,
Thanks for the thought. I'd forgotten about the Claremont. I've still got my Cal Berkeley Bear Backer license plate holder!
I used to have business lunches in the Palace...simply elegant. I'm glad it's still there. I went to The Blue Fox infrequently, and attended a truly elegant wedding reception there.
Marco, trust me, the glass is, indeed, half full. Every great city, and SFO is a great city, has its share of problems, and dregs. That's what happens when you put a bunch of people together.
And, btw, the intellectuals are in Boston, the money and power are in NYC, and the lawyers come from Philadelphia. An over simplification? Just barely!
This is very helpful to me, and I hope you all. I'm learning a lot in this string!
Cheers,
gc
Thanks for the thought. I'd forgotten about the Claremont. I've still got my Cal Berkeley Bear Backer license plate holder!
I used to have business lunches in the Palace...simply elegant. I'm glad it's still there. I went to The Blue Fox infrequently, and attended a truly elegant wedding reception there.
Marco, trust me, the glass is, indeed, half full. Every great city, and SFO is a great city, has its share of problems, and dregs. That's what happens when you put a bunch of people together.
And, btw, the intellectuals are in Boston, the money and power are in NYC, and the lawyers come from Philadelphia. An over simplification? Just barely!
This is very helpful to me, and I hope you all. I'm learning a lot in this string!
Cheers,
gc
Jun 21st, 2002, 01:44 PM
#40
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Kal,
For my vacations I usually visit the Reno and Lake Tahoe areas, Las Vegas, and my family in San Jose. I have also been to San Diego, LA, Monterey/Carmel, Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, Montreal, Kohala Coast, Hawaii; Colonial Williamsburg, VA and Washington, DC just to name a few places My favorite City for vacation is, without a doubt New York City.
For my vacations I usually visit the Reno and Lake Tahoe areas, Las Vegas, and my family in San Jose. I have also been to San Diego, LA, Monterey/Carmel, Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, Montreal, Kohala Coast, Hawaii; Colonial Williamsburg, VA and Washington, DC just to name a few places My favorite City for vacation is, without a doubt New York City.
