ekscrunchy

Florida, thanks so much. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for right now. You have made the Miami Beach area sound enticing! I just may take you up on the GTG idea when I make that scouting trip. What about those other areas that you mentioned--Coral Gables, Coconut Grove--?? Just looking for personal impressions...

Even to make a scouting trip, I need some idea of locations in which to concentrate the search, so please--everyone else--chime in with your ideas about locations....

I don't think I am the Palm Beach type, even beyond the $$ aspect.

Anyone know anything about Tequesta? Or the area north of Jupiter?

All of the points offered above are very helpful--I had never thought of how the foreclosure issue might affect everyone else in the same condo complex, for example.

Florida1

Re: Palm Beach-ha ha! We definitely aren't Palm Beach types either (completely aside from $$)- I'll just say it has been interesting spending time here... Have you read "Madness Under the Royal Palms" by Laurence Leamer? Wow. Highly recommend it!

Coconut Grove-Has more of a neighborhood feel to me. The main area is very walkable, once you park, which can be challenging. There are lots of shops and restaurants-some chain, some independent. Very lively with lots of people out in the evenings. A fun area to spend an afternoon evening in-walking around then eating. I wouldn't want to live too close to that area, as I would think there would be a lot of traffic and noise. There are areas of the Grove that would be quiet, however. I think during the school year lots of University of Miami kids come to the bars there. Not sure though, as we don't do that kind of nightlife, though.

There are waterfront properties in Coconut Grove, but not beachfront, I don't think. You'd have to drive to a beach. Key Biscayne, which is an island near Coconut Grove is very quiet, has nice restaurants and some waterfront/oceanfront condos. It is significantly pricier than Miami Beach. Bill Baggs Cape Florida State Park is on the island too (nice beach, but gets crowded on nice days) and is a fun place to go. You have to go through a toll booth to get onto Key Biscayne. If you are a resident or work there, you can get an automatic electronic pass to go through, though, for about $60 a year.

Coral Gables-further South, I don't think the beach/water is as accessible in this area. This is where the University of Miami is. There are lots of good restaurants in this area too. The Biltmore Hotel is in Coral Gables, built in the 1920s. (It has a legendary Sunday brunch with an incredible seafood buffet-YUM!). It feels more residential to me. There are lots of tree lined streets with lovely homes. I'm not sure about condos in the area, though. I'm sure there are some, just don't know. It isn't a place I'd pick to buy, if I were at all interested in being on/near the water. If you look at condos in this area, I'd be sure to check that they aren't full of college kids-could be noisy!

I know I am biased toward Miami Beach...but I do think it deserves a look in your search. For your scouting trip, you could easily stay on Miami Beach and explore the other areas around Miami and even up into Fort Lauderdale (30 minutes away). The other areas also have hotels, of course.

Hopefully someone can help with Tequesta or Jupiter area...I know very little about those places. If you plan to travel very much while you're down here, the nearest airport of any size from those places would be West Palm Beach, if that is an issue.

EricH

Ah, real estate math. A condo that sold for $32,500 in 1977 and $250,000 in 2010 rose in value by a little less than 6.4% per year. A home that sold for $400,000 in 1990 and $800,000 in 2010 rose by 3.5% a year. Subtract the cost of condo fees, taxes, maintenance, improvements, etc. and you go from mediocre to pretty lousy investments.

NeoPatrick

True, EricH, except that you're leaving out the possibility that it is also your home for those years. What is your suggestion -- rent for those 33 years? Talk about a lousy investment!

EricH

All things considered, maybe not. A renter's cost is rent. An owner's cost includes mortgage, condo fees, taxes, repairs, improvements, assessments and foregone returns on the down payment. If, for example, you had paid cash in 1977 you would have gotten a 6.4% annual return on your investment minus all of those costs other than mortgage. If you'd invested that money in the S&P 500, you'd have gotten 7.9% plus dividends. That adds up. How much? The $32,500 would be worth almost $400,000 today, plus dividends.

SiteC_er

Anytime you double your money you've done good. There's an old saying in the investment world, "The greedy become the needy."

Ackislander

Okay, I'll chime in and suggest Naples. NeoPatrick, I have praised Naples so often on this forum that I am afraid people will think I work for the Chamber of Commerce.

Naples is easy to get to through the Ft Myers (Southwest Florida Regional) Airport. The last 20 miles on the highway may take as long as the flight from the northeast. We made a number of day trips to Miami for museum shows and with visiting friends, though you would want to focus on lunch rather than having dinner and driving back because of wildlife issues.

Naples has property of all types in all price ranges. It has beautiful beaches, not broad like SC but lovely soft sand, and they are accessible to all. There are more golf courses than there are people who want to play golf, so it is probably available and cheap. There is plenty of shopping, thought the economy has hit some places badly according to friends, and there are more good places to eat, from funky to fancy than either your waistline or your pocketbook can afford. Collier County has a really splendid public library system with convenient branches.

I assume that the developers have not entirely destroyed the simple virtues of Old Naples (i.e., "Old" means mostly 1960-65)though they were working hard at it, and there are pleasant modest areas in North Naples as well. Unless I were a golfer, I would not want to be east of 41. We owned in Pelican Bay, which is an upscale "community" of many condo complexes and even single family houses at a variety of price points. No matter how modest the condo, you get to use the facilities (restaurants, beaches, trams) of the whole place.

Naples is physically gorgeous when it is not gorgeous in the north, and there are reasonably good cultural opportunities. The museum isn't bad for a community museum, and the Naples Players have an excellent season in a downtown theatre. Music is more problematic. We heard the Emerson Quartet (probably the most distinguished now playing) in a bad room at a Presbyterian Church, while visiting symphonies in the arts complex have to contend with audiences that chatter to each other during the performance, which some of them can't hear.

We made out like bandits on our property, which sold and closed two weeks before Hurricane Wilma, the height of the market. My wife, an investment professional, follows SiteC_er's advice and isn't greedy. When we received an unsolicited offer on the condo for more than we would have asked had it been on the market, she knew from experience in the equities markets that all the good news about Florida real estate had been written. If you are careful about what you buy and not greedy (don't be the bigger fool who is left holding the bag when the smarter players get out) you may find that this is a good time to buy Florida real estate for the long haul.

Judy24

Hey, NeoPatrick, I did mention Naples, even if it was only one line!

Although we loved visiting Naples and have given thought to living there, we keep coming back to the same road block for us--we don't personally know, or know of, a single person who lives in Naples or the vicinity. Everyone in our family, circle of friends, neighbors, and their friends & neighbors are all on the east coast of Fla. If we were more adventurous this probably wouldn't matter, but since we're not, it remains area of concern for us.

ekscrunchy

This is the type of stuff I am looking for. Although I have to admit that I am in the same boat as Judy as far as knowing not a soul, not counting our friend NeoPatrick!

Just to give a bit more info: I care nothing about golf. I also do not care about the actual beach, but I would not turn my nose up at good swimming offshore. A great pool would be a must, so I would either have to have a condo with a great pool, or a place in one of those large, sprawling complexes that has a clubhouse with pool...

Florida1: If you do not mind generalizing--what would you say is a wildly general price range for a 1-bedroom with water view (and requisite pool) in Miami Beach? 2 bedroom?


How would someone go about looking for rentals/sales in either Miami, or Naples, or anywhere else in the state, online?

When I do an online search, I run into blocked pages that require you to give personal info to an agent before allowing you to see the details of a property...this is very different than in my home state (NY) where anyone can browse listings with photos without signing in...
There are few NY agents (Corcoran, etc) that offer properties in Florida but these are generally in the multi-million range.

Florida1

In our building, I believe 1 bedrooms
start in the low 300's, but you might find
Upper 200's. Like I said before, our building is
Older, though, but I think that's probably
A starting point.

I'm on my way to the airport now-to London
But when I return, I'll try to do a little research
for you and find some links to some properties.

SamX100

There are many excellent replies here. I'll add my brief thoughts, having just bought (as a second home) a foreclosed condo in Fort Lauderdale (which is not mentioned much here). First, however, I must say to ekscrunchy that you do not really appear to be anywhere near ready to make such an important financial decision. You said you had not even considered the fact that buildings full of foreclosed or empty condos might have an effect on remaining residents. Forget about the big pool - this is among the first things you need to consider! You really need to educate yourself about financial and real estate matters before even beginning to think about buying.

Although there are many bargains (I got a fantastic one) the irony is that unless you're a cash buyer (I wasn't) you might have a very difficult time getting approved for a loan even if your credit is excellent. Lenders are justifiably strict now. They should be - the failure to adhere to good underwriting of loans is what caused this big bubble to burst. They will look for at least 20% down and will requie full documentation of your income and other debt. Many will also require that the condo building have an owner or second-home owner occupancy rate of 70 to 80%. That's very tough right now since so many buildings contain investor units, or empty ones that have been foreclosed on. Some lenders will not look at this ratio if you increase your down payment to 30% or more. Different lenders will also look at other factors - the amount of reserves the condo association has, for example. Call around to a number of different lenders before you do anything else - this will educate you more than anything. Some reputable lenders won't lend in South Florida at all due to the risk of hurricanes.

I love Fort Lauderdale and it was the only place I really considered. It's large enough to be a proper city with cultural activities and numerous good restaurants, but small enough to have a much more relaxed vibe than Miami. Miami is only 20-25 miles to the south if you want it, however. The condo I bought is in a medium-sized complex (about 60 units), was in pristine condition, and the purchase price was about 65% less than the prior sales price near the height of the market. I agree with the previous writer who believes prices will rise again. Of course they will. I've also lived through a couple of booms and busts. Remember the rule "buy low,sell high?" We humans often do the reverse, foolishly. We buy high, when everyone is in a frenzy thinking prices will go up forever, but when prices are low we are full of fear. Although prices might drop even further, it's foolish to try and time the market. I believe that now, when both prices and interest rates are so low, is a great time to buy. Just make sure you can carry it financially and you'll be fine.

ekscrunchy

Sam: Many thanks. You are correct that I am not ready to buy right now. I am more interested in making a couple of trips to look at various locations with a possible rental in mind. I think that I would certainly rent for a few months or a season before committing to purchasing. But who knows, if I find something ideal---and the price is right..and then I will certainly consider all of the factors that have been mentioned here by you and others.

So what concerns me right now is selecting a couple of areas in which to begin searching for a property. I would like to then fly down and take a look at a few places. But without a general idea of locations it would be impossible to even do a preliminary search...
Andn I am afraid that the swimming pool is a big factor for me. Without access to a good pool, I would not be remotely interested in renting, or buying, anything..

I never considered Ft. Lauderdale. But then I barely know one location from the next except on a map and from the brief trips I've made over the years..

So I welcome generalizations....for example, people tell me that Boca Raton is overcrowded and that the traffic is terrible. True?

Florida: Thanks for the price info--when you return and have time, I would love to have those links so I can at least begin looking online..and dreaming..

NeoPatrick

Overcrowded and traffic terrible? Why narrow that to Boca? It can be said of nearly anywhere in Florida -- compared to what it used to be, but it's all a comparative thing. Over crowded and terrible traffic? Not compared to LA or NYC or most major cities. And certainly all of Florida would be called "overcrowded" compared to what it was -- say 20 years ago.

I called a friend in Ft. Lauderdale saying I was 10 minutes from his house when I drove over one day. An hour later I arrived. No accidents or anything -- just incredible traffic. But at another time, perhaps it would be 10 minutes. And the same can be said for nearly any community in Florida of any size at all.

ekscrunchy

You have a point there, Neo. I guess that was kind of a silly comment. It seems as if the few people I've spoken to are quick to bash areas where they DO NOT live..."OH, Boca is much too crowded now..it is much nicer further north, etc etc"



I'd just like to get some general ideas about the various locations...I've been to Florida many times but the last time was more than 5 years ago...and even if I plan to take a trip there, I need a starting point...(I even lived for a short time in the Tampa area, but that was so long ago and things have no doubt changed so much since then..)

gordonsumner

I agree with the comments about renting. Florida real estate is toast for many years to come. I was an active real estate investor in Florida from 2003-2005 and regularly saw net profit of 400% on my land investments within a 12 month period. The flip side is what Florida is going through now, land specifically has zero value in many areas that are not already built up. In other areas a lot has lost 90% of it's value since the peak. Condo and assessement fees are going through the roof because owners are walking away and being foreclosed on. Hurricanes are a huge wildcard and insurance premiums are expensive these days from what I understand. Be a renter and avoid the headaches. Florida is a huge state btw. South Florida is congested but much of the state is not densely populated at all.

Florida1

Hi ekscrunchy,

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving!

Here is a website that lets you look at condos in all of South Florida. If you paste this link:

http://southflorida.blockshopper.com/condos

in your browser, it should come up. There is a box with pull down menus in the top left of the page with pull downs for "Select a City" and "Condo." When you pick a city, then the "Condo" one reloads with a pull down of addresses and you can see condos for sale at that particular address. You can always Google map the location to see where it's located. If you keep scrolling down, it also lists condos by name. (At least this is the case for Miami Beach). It lists lots of South Florida cities.

I'll see if I can find other links, but this is one that I have used on occaision. Hope this helps!

SAnParis2

EricH - As usual, you are doing math w/out all the variables (as NeoP mentioned). If you had invested that money elsewhere, you would still need a place to live. So I'm afraid you'll need to subtract the cost of your 'rent' or whatever, from your supposed gains & reduce your initial investment. In addition, you are also assuming NeoP paid cash ($32.5k) when he purchased the Condo. Since that is not probable, where is the $32.5k coming from to invest in the first place ? I'm guessing you're some kind of a broker/sales person of investment vehicles based on your spin on things. Yes ? In addition, waht intrinsic value can you place on your home, it location, its proximity to entertainment, etc. ?Figure all that in & get back to me, will you ?

EricH

Comparing the costs of renting vs. buying involves comparing ALL of the costs. As I said, for a renter, the cost is rent (that’s the cost of your place to live). For a buyer, it is the cost of your down payment plus mortgage, fees, taxes, repairs and maintenance, and insurance (over whatever a renter may pay for the more limited insurance they would carry). I think that’s it, but correct me if I’m omitting something. I used a cash purchase to simplify. If you don’t pay all cash, you have a mortgage to pay, but you still lose the opportunity cost on your down payment.

If you want a nice calculator to make these comparisons, the NYT has one at

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/b...or.html?src=tp

Be sure to use the advanced settings to cover all of the bases.

No, I’m not a broker or anything like that. Nor am I in any area of the real estate business. I’m just someone who can do the economic calculations. What part of these calculations can’t you understand?

SAnParis2

How you can pretend to figure out ROI using 2 or 3 variables whilst leaving out about 100. It is not something you can statistically place a number on, regardless of how you may choose to manipulate them (the numbers). In addition, you made many assumptions but treat the answer as if it is valid regardless. Just calling a spade a spade. You simply can not attach a number or value to everything, particularly in this instance.

EricH

Okay, I forgot to include price appreciation (or depreciation, which Florida residents know well). Anything else? I'm not asking for 100, just a few.