Frank

Captain Picard it was still annexed in the 40's and considered the way Kuwait was part of Iraq when Sadam Husan invaded in 92. I think we did drag it in as a state when we saw the strategic significance after Pear harbor but we still dragged it.

Rusty

No Pele,

I haven't read the whole thread. I just happened on it now and saw it was long on opinion and emotion and short on facts.

But my understanding is there are no true Hawaiians, even on Ni'ihau. The only way the Hawaiian race survived was by inter-marrying with other races who had immunity from the diseases of that time period.

So how do you differentiate from somebody who has 2% Hawaiian ancestry vs. somebody with 45% vs. somebody with 90%?

Pele

Robinsons,

Certainly by our standards they are living somewhat primitively. No paved roads, etc.

The entire island is privately owned. Native Hawaaian is the predominant language spoken by the Hawaiians...most of whom have vey little(if any) contact) with outsiders.

Niihau is the only island that voted against statehood.

Jim

"Roger the Pirate,"
Easy for you to say. You're telling Puerto Ricans they should put their "independence" ahead of the financial gain they get by being part of the US. I love these people who sit back and tell other people they should make their lives more difficult and less comfortable for some esoteric "independence" from the US. Yeah, in perfect world culture should trump money but if you're the one whose money is on the line I bet your answer would be different.

Interested

Trying to get the thread deleted Jim and Rusty? If you have any kind of knowledge base than share it otherwise this is not a political forum.

Interested

ditto Pele

AlsoInterested

California declared their independence from Mexico in 1846 and was annexed by the U.S. in 1848 nine days after gold was discovered in the territory. Using your rationale, Pele, California should also be independent. And what about the Lone Star Republic? Get real, Pele.

Pele

I never said Hawaii should be independent.

I believe that the choice to be independent or not should have belonged to Hawaiian people.

AlsoInterested

Wasn't this question answered when the residents of the territory of Hawaii voted for statehood. In fact, if I recall correctly (from the book "Shoals of Time"), the people of Hawaii wanted to become a state (and voted several times to do so) long before the U.S. Congress finally approved it. There was more concern in Washington, D.C. about Hawaii becoming a state than there was in Hawaii itself.

There have always been a few activists opposed to union but I understand the people of Hawaii overwhelmingly have always been in favor of being part of the U.S. Like a prior poster mentioned the people of Hawaii live better because of it.

Roger

The Hawaiians of the 1950s may have supported statehood but I bet the Hawaiians of the 1820s or the 1890s did not support statehood. You might say that Hawaii, or those who ran it, took Berthold Brecht to the extreme- if you are having problems with the people you are ruling, elect a new population. American missionaries (mostly Yankee know-it-alls from New England) helped destroy and marginalize the Hawaiian people and American interests destroyed Hawaiian soveriegnty. Ironic, but what goes around, comes around. New England Yankees destroyed the original Hawaiians and relegated them to a tiny segment of their own land. Today, New England Yankees are a tiny, despised minority in southern New England with no political power. Just ask the Lodges and the Saltonstalls.

AlsoInterested

If the present day residents of the islands are in favor of statehood why not leave well enough alone? The old Hawaiians of the 1820's and 1890's are long gone and "kankei ga nai" with the people who live in Hawaii now.

Kaimi

I was just introduced to this thread by a coworker. I just don't know where to begin. I would begin with other island nations in Oceania look to Hawaii as an example of what not to do in terms of modernization. Also "quality of life" has nothing to do with cable TV, paved roads, candy bars, hot dogs, or potato chips; those luxuries that we use to satisfy our souls with our disposable income do not equate happiness. So please don't say that the quality of life for Native Hawaiians has improved because of the generosity of the US. I also know that you can't reverse time and that we must work with what we have got.
Currently there is a stalled bill in congress that would give Hawaiians recognition as an indegenous people, and with it the rights similiar to that of a Native American/Alaskan. The bill made it through the house only to be crushed in the Senate. Republicans gotta love 'em. There is still hope to get this bill passed. Write to your legislators. More information on the bill at http://akaka.senate.gov/
As for deplorable things the US has done. Look to Micronesia. Due to US nuclear bomb testing in the area they have babies that they call jellyfish, because their skin is transparent, and grapes, because these babies have neither arms nor legs. The US used the population of one island to see if humans could live in a post nuclear fallout environment. Don't read about this kind of stuff in the papers? I know someone who can't call home because he has spoken out on these issues plagueing his homeland due to fear that his family will be punished. Micronesian businessmen which benefit from US dollars and an American control of information keep these stories out of the front pages.
America the beautiful! The illusion of freedom given with one hand while the shackles get the other. Also not all Hawaiians were in favor of Statehood, being outnumbered by the other ethnicities at that time there was really no hope. Also Liliuokalani the last Queen stopped a Hawaiian military reaction to the US overthrow because she trusted that the US government would follow their own constitution and assist in reversing the illegal actions of their citizens.

indigenous

Speaking as a person of indigenous native ancestry in North America
1. Did the U.S. behave badly when it annexed Hawaii and deposed Liliuokalini
- Yes - no doubt about it
2. Was pre U.S. Hawaii a paradise - No - What about incredibly onerous "kapu" (sp?) e.g. If you were a commoner and allowed the shadow of one of the Alii(nobility) to touch you, you could be executed.
3. Can you reverse history? - No
4. Would Hawaii have been better off if the U.S. had not annexed it - who knows?
5. Hawaiians of all ethnic backgrounds have to live in the present and remember the past and try not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
6. Protect your sense of who you are and
dont over romanticize what might have been.

kam

Yes I knew that. Now do I get a gold star? Are there people here who have visited Hawaii and learned nothing of its history? Terrible to think that.

Sarah

Indegenous: Put the shadow law into context it was probably meant as a security measure. It was a time where kings were constantly maintaining there positions by batteling other kings. I am not saying all laws of the time were rational and appropriate I am just saying that you have to consider the time, the economy. Try to remember some equally shocking rules that simulatneously existed on the mainland U.S during the 18th century which is the time of the shadow law. We had slavery for one, lawless wild west 100 years later come to mind.

Kaimi tell us more,I of course like most others here did not grow up learning this stuff. What you wrote about Micronesia is truly horrifying. Thanks for the update on the akaka bill.

Wanted to ask you also if you know anything about the military bombing in the Makua Valley on Oahu, seems like it started right when Koohawalawa (sp) stopped. Is anyone organized around this. Don't wish to turn this into a debate but would love information on what is going on around this issure.

Melissa

Topping for Kaimi!

indigenous

Toarah
Actually I was only using that one example of "Kapu" laws - to point out that Hawaii was not exactly 'paradise' in social terms. There are other examples I could have used e.g. the practice of slaughtering all the losing side (including women and children) after a battle. However (believe it or not), I am not trying to be critical - heaven knows one can come up with numerous examples of hideous practices in all societies - I am just trying to stop the over romanticization of the Hawaiian past. It's been my experience that many people look to the "past" through VERY rosy glasses - seeing only the good and overlooking the bad.
I see this with my own people so much (e.g. "north america was just perfect before the white man came" etc - Well it wasn't "perfect" - just different and we have to live in the present not the past.

Joe

Having just returned from Hawaii, I am struck but all this talk about Hawaiian independence. The "original" hawaiians were from Tahiti, from what history books i've read. They overcame the menehune people who had already lived in the islands and eraditcated them. I am not passing judgement just making a statement. I for one am proud to be an American citizen, the "wrongs " perpetrated on the "hawaiian people" by outsiders is well documented. The facts of history are that one culture overthrows other cultures..... Sad but true. We should be proud (all people of the untied states)to be able to express aour own opinions in a country where it is your right to do so. The "Hawaiians" of the 50's voted to join the union. History is done, live in the present and finds ways to help all help live in a free world...

Lord Covington

To all of you Yanks who think that the terms democracy and monarchy are contradictory terms, you should do more studying on Great Britain, which is a much better example of your uncultured and ungentelmanly republic.

yank

Lord Covington: Speak English please.