Prop 13 should be rescinded for business property. Why should businesses get a tax break forever? Corporations live forever unlike people.

Barbara, I do agree that all states should get an equal percentage of taxes back and not one state getting 75% and another getting 200%. That is unfair. However, California wouldn't be broke if it didn't have the policies it has had and shouldn't, in my opinion, be bailed out. I have nothing against California. I hold the same opinions for all states ,including my own. If my state goes broke because of irresponsibility, and we do have plenty of it where I am, which is why are taxes are going way up, than my state and myself included, should suffer until we get off our backsides and rise up and demand change. The whole USA is going broke however and not just California, because Washington, all political parties, is very corrupt and are a bunch of spendthrifts and its' been this way for years. I also have nothing against Mexico, it's just we can't take on their people, that's THEIR government's job, we have enough problems of our own.

Doesn't this belong in the Fodorite lounge ?????

Editors???????

Stu Dudley

California parks do not belong to the US forum???????

Police???????

Just to make this a bit more informational: It is just a proposal, and if it does pass, it will not take effect until after Labor Day weekend 2009.

Ivk, I did say that in my first post, but I don't think anyone bothers to read them. Thanks for reminding people.

Hi Barbara, I bothered to read your first post. I just wanted to post about the timing, so as not to scare away anyone who was planning to visit a CA state park this summer.

>>California parks do not belong to the US forum???????

Police???????

Sorry Faina - I was referring to all the immigration stuff - not the state parks. The prior 16 posts to my first post were all about immigration and how "nuts" we Californians all are !!!!

Stu Dudley

corli33: you are speaking from emotion and not from facts.

You blame the illegal immigrants for taking away jobs from Americans:

"Most American kids want work but can't find it because they've been replaced by Mexicans."

Fact of the matter is that the illegal immigrants are the ones holding up our economy. When I was younger I tried to work in a Central Valley tomato field picking tomatoes for a whole day bent over the way the illegal immigrants do and I didn't last half a day. You should try it sometime!

In the Chinese and Vietnamese restaurants, unless it's completely family-run, the back kitchen help is always "illegal immigrants", sometimes even the wait staff speaks only Spanish. This goes for all kinds of restaurants in California.

Go and stay in a Californian hotel and, like it as not, the person cleaning up after your mess is Spanish-speaking.

I've hired periodic yard workers from my local Catholic Center for years. The worst workers are Americans. It's gotten to the point where I don't want anyone who speaks English to work for me. Why? They don't carry their weight - they let the spanish-speaking person do the work while they "chat" with the owner; before they've dug two shovelfuls of dirt, they need a "coffee break"; they can't be bothered to work a bit of overtime to finish a job; they demand the highest pay; they don't do what I tell them to do, they always know better; etc. etc. They are, in a word, a headache. All I want is for a periodic cleanup which neither my regular gardener nor the two little boys down the street can do. That's all I want - not a headache. Mine is the usual story here in California, not the extraordinary. Go ask any homeowner who's actually doing the work for them and like as not the hard work is being done by immigrants.

The problem with California's budget problems lie in Sacramento and in Washington DC, not with the California taxpayers nor with the immigrants. Stop spreading the manure around!

"California hasn't been bailing the rest of the country out, that's laughable."

Many states receive back more than the taxpayers in their state send to Washington. CA gets back less than most. Maybe that's what is meant by CA bailing out others.

Ah, Stu, never mind me

"corli33: you are speaking from emotion and not from facts."

No, I'm speaking from hard cold facts. Mass illegal migration is a huge drain or our economy. Schools and hospitals are sinking, jails are overflowing, much higher crime and drunk driving deaths. Social services are strained to the breaking point. Taxpayers must pick up the tab.

"You blame the illegal immigrants for taking away jobs from Americans:"

No, I blame greedy White American employers who want their "slave labor."

"Go and stay in a Californian hotel and, like it as not, the person cleaning up after your mess is Spanish-speaking. "

Go and stay at a hotel in Montana and the person cleanig up your mess is American. In states where there is little or no immigration like Montana, all the lawns manage to get mowed and the janitorial work done. Only difference is that the employers can't get away with as lousy a pay and can treat must treat their employees better.

"I've hired periodic yard workers from my local Catholic Center for years. The worst workers are Americans."

Of course you hire Mexicans. They are desperate and will take anything. Employers love a docile work force that they can take advantage of. This is the new neo-slavery. However, Mexicans aren't going to put up with this forever. If they get amnesty, you will see the demands, understandably for higher wages and better working conditions, to go up.

"The problem with California's budget problems lie in Sacramento and in Washington DC, not with the California taxpayers nor with the immigrants. Stop spreading the manure around!"

Like it or not it lies with Cali's socialist spending policies combined with its' imporation of large numbers of poor unskilled people who must use them at higher rates. Sure, "Jose" is desperate and hardworking and the employer can treat him anyway, but he doesn't make enough to live on so the taxpayers pick up the rest. That is why California is broke.

The solution to any job shortages is like Japan. All Americans should be offered jobs at fair wages. Any actual shortages can be filled by legal contract work where a worker comes, works for a period of time, say 5 years and goes home, and only the number needed to fill the shortage.

meant to say "Sure, "Jose" is desperate and hardworking and the employer can treat him like dirt"

""I've hired periodic yard workers from my local Catholic Center for years. The worst workers are Americans."

I'll quickly add that most Americans are very hard workers, we're notorious for having little vacation time however many American yard workers and such at Catholic or other centers are usually, I hate to say, "street people" who are not known for their hard work but want a little extra for alchol or drugs. Certainly not the average American worker. As I said, I believe in filling only actual job shortages with legal temporary work, not driving down wages by greedy employers which is what immigration today is all about.

For what it's worth, this lifelong Californian (me - 62 years), agrees with about 100% of what easytraveler has observed first hand. The only thing that I can add to her comments is that the large high-tech company I worked for employed almost entirely immigrants to do the non-skilled & semi-skilled labor - mainly from Eastern Europe & Asia. Not because it cost us less in labor costs (any high-tech company will tell you that direct labor costs are a very small % of the total cost), but because they did an excellent job & were very reliable. Our experiences with "local grown" employees were not nearly as good - that's why there were few of them.

We recently had a major repair & paint job on our house. 100% Mexican immigrants - mostly legal. It cost us twice as much as a similar job did in '90 (counting for inflation), and the job was twice as good as the '87 job which was performed by a well-reputed "local grown" painting crew (which, at the time, we though did an excellent job).

I still think this idea belongs in the Fodors Lounge - but I couldn't refrain from expressing my observations from 62 years of going to school with, playing sports with, working with, hiring, hearing neighbor's (including doctors) comments about immigrants.

Stu Dudley

Stu: I agree! At this stage, this thread belongs in the Lounge. And thanks for your supportive post!

Meanwhile, back to the discussion:

corli33"Go and stay at a hotel in Montana and the person cleanig up your mess is American."

You are comparing Montana to California? Why?

The GDP of Montana is M27,790 and Montana is ranked 46th nationally.

The GDP of California is M 1,515,453 and California is ranked Number 1 nationally. It would take 55 Montanas to have the kind of GDP that California has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

Why am I bringing up GDP? Well, all that producing takes LABOR. The immigrants contribute a lot in blood, sweat, and tears kind of labor alongside everyone else.

Maybe Montana should import some immigrants from California?

corli33 - your prejudice against the immigrants is unwarranted. The jobs are there, only Americans don't want that kind of work. They're too good for it.

When I told you that I hired people from our local Catholic Center, you remarked:"Of course you hire Mexicans." The Catholic Center offers help to all who go there: whites, blacks, Mexicans, Salvadoreans - you jumped to an erroneous conclusion there. "They are desperate and will take anything." This is simply not true. If I need someone who can do brickwork, I get someone who can do brickwork. Sorry, but your statement is really a prejudiced one.

You also target the employers:
"No, I blame greedy White American employers who want their 'slave labor.'" "Slave labor?" This is such an odd idea I don't even know how to address it. These people need to work to support families either here in this country or at home. Do you think they will work for free so they can feed their families on nothing?

As you've heard from Stu, the people cleaning his office complex are mostly immigrants. They have a powerful union and they make $15 an hour plus benefits. That's what the auto workers at GM are going to be making, perhaps less. These immigrants work hard and earn every penny of their pay.

Why don't you make some room in your heart for these immigrants? They are making a tremendous contribution to this country.

>>As you've heard from Stu, the people cleaning his office complex are mostly immigrants.

Calif has become a socialist, job-killing, nanny-welfare state ... and "welfare" includes the overpaid, public employee unions who have the Dem party in their pocket, and collaborate to fleece the taxpayers.

"Socialism is great, until you run out of the OTHER people's money" - (? Margaret Thatcher)

The state parks should impose appropriate admission fees ... those that use the parks, can darn well pay for it. For those that don't want to pay, there are PLENTY of free places to walk or hike within the state.

Just don't expect the productive citizens to pay for others's "leisure entitlements".

re: "Easytraveler"-when I say "slave labor" I don't actually mean slaves, of course illegals are paid, just far less than what they're worth, no benefits, sick leave. It's exploitation plain and simple. No matter how much some here try to excuse it. Whild some here may pay and treat their illegals or immigrants well, many don't.

"Studies that I've read indicate that illegals just "suck it up" when they need medical attention, and not go to an ER "

Not true at all, hospitals can't inquire about status and we spend billions on free medical. Why are hospitals in areas with large numbers of illegals closing? It's unfair to pay for foreign nationals while many Americans can't afford a doctor.

Look, I keep hearing the talk about how Americans are such bad workers and we must have massive immigration. This is false and I know from personal experience. Americans as a whole are a very hard working bunch. We work more hours on average than many people around the world except the Japanese. Of course on occasion there are lazy, useless American workers(I know from personal experience.) I've also seen immigrants who are very hard working and reliable and some who do shoddy, incorrect work. Go anywhere in the USA where there is no immigration and surprise surprise, the gardening, yard work and dish washing all get done.

The point I'm making is that illegal immigration IS illegal, it's exploitive and while providing cheap labor for employers is unfair to Americans who have to pick up the social costs. As I said, if there are actual job shortages and there are some in very low level jobs like migrant work, dish washer etc., again we don't need massive immigration. We can do like Japan, have legal contract workers, only the amount needed to do the job for a set period say 5 years when they must go home. Permanant immigration should be severely reduced as we've already had so much. Now that we are in a recession, all immigration needs to be halted. It makes no sense to keep hiring foreign workers at the expense of Americans. If we keep insourcing and outsourcing jobs, we'll go from recession to depression.

"Why don't you make some room in your heart for these immigrants?"

I have nothing against legal immigration. It's just that it should be in small assimable numbers, not en masse.