Atkins on the Go
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:07 AM
#42
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This is the last time I will be posting on the subject because people just don't like to hear the truth. My spouse is a cardiologist. One does not suffer a "massive brain hemmhorages" from a simple fall. He most likely had a stroke and fell on the ice. The report on TV is candy coated as to try not to ruin his image just like the heart attack. How many times do you hear a 45 year old rock musician die of "natural causes"? Believe what you will. People just do not want to diet and exercise and look for the easy way out. If you do not want to take advice from a cardiologist that is your choice. We'll see whose information was correct 10, 15 years from now. Good luck.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:11 AM
#43
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And I will post this for the last time. A person's cholesterol/blood pressure will come down during Atkins because they are losing weight. As soon as they go off it (which they will, it is an impossible diet to follow) their blood pressure/cholesterol goes through the roof. This is an impossible diet to follow for life and it is not healthy. Again, how many people do you know that have followed this diet for MORE than 5 years and are in terrific health? Best of luck.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:13 AM
#44
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I wasn't going to reply to gplimpton's critique of paleolithic diets, but since this thread has been dragged back up to the top anyway, I will reply to her information about the poor health of Europeans 200 and 250 years ago: Yes, that's exactly my point -- living primarily on cheap grains, these people had terrrible health. We are now at a point where we can benefit from understanding how human metabolism works, and it just wasn't cut out for these high carb loads that became the staple of "civilized" diets with the advent of agriculture and cities about 6,000 years ago.
Your speculations about the dentition of paleolothic 35-year-olds make no sense; if you're going to start spouting anthropological evidence as well as presenting yourself as a medical expert, then you really need to look at some primary sources.
Your speculations about the dentition of paleolothic 35-year-olds make no sense; if you're going to start spouting anthropological evidence as well as presenting yourself as a medical expert, then you really need to look at some primary sources.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:18 AM
#45
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Well, as per usual, this topic really strayed from it's original purpose.
Thanks to all who posted their suggestions, I found some of them helpful.
What's a Golden Corral? Do they have them in CA? What kind of areas have them?
Does anyone else have any suggestions for doing Atkins/SouthBeach/Sugarbusters type eating plans on the go, esp in big metropolis type cities (Manhattan/SF/etc)?
Thanks to all who posted their suggestions, I found some of them helpful.
What's a Golden Corral? Do they have them in CA? What kind of areas have them?
Does anyone else have any suggestions for doing Atkins/SouthBeach/Sugarbusters type eating plans on the go, esp in big metropolis type cities (Manhattan/SF/etc)?
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:24 AM
#46
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Strings
I am a pathologist and can tell you that it is possible for a person to suffer a subdural hemorrhage from a fall. Another possibility is that he had a ruptured aneurysm.
gplimpton,
There is data out there from studies whioch supports the fact that the Atkins diet is a healthy one for the reason I previously mentioned. In addition, just look at what has happened to the U.S. population evenr since we were told 25 or 30 yrs. ago that in order to eat healthy we should be on a low fat high carbohydrate diet. Tis has in fact produced an epidemic of obesity in this country that is out of control. As we know, obesity is not only a major risk factor for carduiovascular disease, but also for type 2 diabetes.
The way Atkins works is by limiting carbohydrates, the body uses fat for energy instead, which is why people not only lose weight and have lower blood pressure, but also have lower total cholesterol and triglycerides and increased HDL(good choilesterol levels).
http://www.applesforhealth.com/Healt...igfatmig4.html
I am a pathologist and can tell you that it is possible for a person to suffer a subdural hemorrhage from a fall. Another possibility is that he had a ruptured aneurysm.
gplimpton,
There is data out there from studies whioch supports the fact that the Atkins diet is a healthy one for the reason I previously mentioned. In addition, just look at what has happened to the U.S. population evenr since we were told 25 or 30 yrs. ago that in order to eat healthy we should be on a low fat high carbohydrate diet. Tis has in fact produced an epidemic of obesity in this country that is out of control. As we know, obesity is not only a major risk factor for carduiovascular disease, but also for type 2 diabetes.
The way Atkins works is by limiting carbohydrates, the body uses fat for energy instead, which is why people not only lose weight and have lower blood pressure, but also have lower total cholesterol and triglycerides and increased HDL(good choilesterol levels).
http://www.applesforhealth.com/Healt...igfatmig4.html
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:30 AM
#47
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Elkin,
I guess you are not from the USA. Golden Corral is one of a number steak franchise restaurants in the USA. Type the restaurant name in a google search to find out more about it.
Grocery store delis and salad bars are a wonderful source for food on vacation.
Strings,
YOU did not go to medical school, your spouse did. People die from complications from falls all the time. It is a common cause of death (esp. as we age). Some celebrity (David Brinkly I think) died in the past couple of weeks from this. As we age, our reaction time slows so we cannot react as fast to the fall.
I guess you are not from the USA. Golden Corral is one of a number steak franchise restaurants in the USA. Type the restaurant name in a google search to find out more about it.
Grocery store delis and salad bars are a wonderful source for food on vacation.
Strings,
YOU did not go to medical school, your spouse did. People die from complications from falls all the time. It is a common cause of death (esp. as we age). Some celebrity (David Brinkly I think) died in the past couple of weeks from this. As we age, our reaction time slows so we cannot react as fast to the fall.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:30 AM
#48
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Wow, anonymous, you didn't follow that at all.
People in the 21st century are much healthier (as judged by height, longevity, etc) than they were 200+ years ago.
People 200+ years ago were healthier than people were back in the times of earliest useful paleontological data, as judged by longevity, height, etc.
It's certainly possible that a largely agrarian diet is optimal. But it is not reasonable to assert that modern diets have led to failing health, as defined by height, lifespan, etc, compared with people from thousands of years ago. Humans have become taller and exhibit progressively longer lifespans throughout recorded history. There was no super-healthy group of primitive people who lived to 100 and were 8 feet tall.
People in the 21st century are much healthier (as judged by height, longevity, etc) than they were 200+ years ago.
People 200+ years ago were healthier than people were back in the times of earliest useful paleontological data, as judged by longevity, height, etc.
It's certainly possible that a largely agrarian diet is optimal. But it is not reasonable to assert that modern diets have led to failing health, as defined by height, lifespan, etc, compared with people from thousands of years ago. Humans have become taller and exhibit progressively longer lifespans throughout recorded history. There was no super-healthy group of primitive people who lived to 100 and were 8 feet tall.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:36 AM
#49
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So, does a pathologist know more about cardiology than someone that has done more than 3,000 angioplasties in their lifetime? How many cardiologists do you know that agree with the Atkins diet? You just can't win with this group. My spouse goes through this every day. I'm wasting my breath. I'd rather be safe and healthy. But the choice is yours.
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:38 AM
#50
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Elkin: if you were correctly trained you would acknowledge that since there are no prospective randomized controlled trials of Atkins diet vs. non with follow up exceeding, say 20 years (or whenever term you suspect would allow a statistically significant amount of intimal streaking or surrogate pathologic/objective determinant of coronary vascular damage to be determined), it is not possible to conclude anything about the long term effects of said diet.
You're citing anecdotal and case series data, which, as we all know, carries no more weight than the paper it's printed on.
The human medical literature is replete with examples of misleading pilot trial data, reversed conclusions with prolonged follow-up, and even intentional investigator bias (even fraud) which produces unreliable conclusions.
The prospective randomized trial is the gold standard here. One is supposedly ongoing, coordinated by the NIH. Results should be forthcoming...in about 7-10 years.
You're citing anecdotal and case series data, which, as we all know, carries no more weight than the paper it's printed on.
The human medical literature is replete with examples of misleading pilot trial data, reversed conclusions with prolonged follow-up, and even intentional investigator bias (even fraud) which produces unreliable conclusions.
The prospective randomized trial is the gold standard here. One is supposedly ongoing, coordinated by the NIH. Results should be forthcoming...in about 7-10 years.
Jul 7th, 2003, 11:22 AM
#51
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Actually, I was the one asking about the Golden Corral, not Elkin.
I live in an area with very few franchise type eating places near to where I live.
Is this a strip mall kind of franchise?
I live in an area with very few franchise type eating places near to where I live.
Is this a strip mall kind of franchise?
Jul 7th, 2003, 11:22 AM
#52
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gplimpton,
Actually there have been radomized studies looking at the Atkin's diet that have been done by people other than Dr. Atkins.
http://atkins.com/Ar
chive/2003/5/21-116368.html
ncgrrl,
I am sorry but I am not sure what the Golden Corral reference is all about. I do lkive in the USA and have all my life, but have never heard of Golden Corral.
Strings,
Well, when we do autopsies we do look at the patient's coronary arteries both grossly and microscopically amon samples from major organs and correlate that with their other medical findings in order to determine an immediate and underlying cause of death.
Actually there have been radomized studies looking at the Atkin's diet that have been done by people other than Dr. Atkins.
http://atkins.com/Ar
chive/2003/5/21-116368.html
ncgrrl,
I am sorry but I am not sure what the Golden Corral reference is all about. I do lkive in the USA and have all my life, but have never heard of Golden Corral.
Strings,
Well, when we do autopsies we do look at the patient's coronary arteries both grossly and microscopically amon samples from major organs and correlate that with their other medical findings in order to determine an immediate and underlying cause of death.
Jul 7th, 2003, 11:36 AM
#53
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But there's nothing cited with long term follow up.
Heck, someone can smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day for 10 years and the chances of developing cancer during that interval are <5% if they're under 40 years old.
But I don't think any of us would suggest that smoking 4 PPD is not without long term risk.
Anecdote: a cardiology professor of mine told a story of when he attended an American Cardiology Ass'n meeting in 1966. Having arrived late, he sat in the back row of the auditoreum.
He said he could hardly see the screen up front...due to all the cigarette smoke. Even cardiologists hadn't yet bought into the full extent of the potential dangers of smoking at that time. Took many years before the picture became quite clear.
And of course we all know that many smokers will pay no obvious price for their smoking. No cancer, no symptomatic COPD, no CVA.
But the fact that we can measure the damage over many years has led to the general disfavor of smoking.
If Atkins diet proves to harm even 5% of devotees it will be written off as a scourge.
Heck, someone can smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day for 10 years and the chances of developing cancer during that interval are <5% if they're under 40 years old.
But I don't think any of us would suggest that smoking 4 PPD is not without long term risk.
Anecdote: a cardiology professor of mine told a story of when he attended an American Cardiology Ass'n meeting in 1966. Having arrived late, he sat in the back row of the auditoreum.
He said he could hardly see the screen up front...due to all the cigarette smoke. Even cardiologists hadn't yet bought into the full extent of the potential dangers of smoking at that time. Took many years before the picture became quite clear.
And of course we all know that many smokers will pay no obvious price for their smoking. No cancer, no symptomatic COPD, no CVA.
But the fact that we can measure the damage over many years has led to the general disfavor of smoking.
If Atkins diet proves to harm even 5% of devotees it will be written off as a scourge.
Jul 7th, 2003, 12:40 PM
#54
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Sorry Bay Area and Elkin about the Golden Corral confusion.
It's a stand-alone restaurant building where you can order from a limited menu of steaks or the super-huge buffet. The buffet has everything from salads, main courses, sides, and desserts for around $8. You order first, take a seat and a waiter brings bread, nakpins, and drink refills.
If you are the adult in charge of a teen group (esp. boys who are always hungry) this is the best way to feed them on the cheap.
It's a stand-alone restaurant building where you can order from a limited menu of steaks or the super-huge buffet. The buffet has everything from salads, main courses, sides, and desserts for around $8. You order first, take a seat and a waiter brings bread, nakpins, and drink refills.
If you are the adult in charge of a teen group (esp. boys who are always hungry) this is the best way to feed them on the cheap.
Jul 7th, 2003, 01:58 PM
#55
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Iam really trying to figure out how anyone can say Atkins is unhealthy in comparison to a high carb diet. If you read Atkins For Life, you can see how it stresses low fat, whole grains, low carb vegetables, lean meats etc.
Prove to me this is unhealthy!!
Breakfast: cottage cheese, tomatoes, turkey
Lunch: Salad with grilled chicken
Dinner: Fish, salad, low carb veg, brown rice
Snack: string cheese, shrimp
Those who say this is unhealthy are the ones who snack on pretzels because they are "healthy". How many Doctors are trained in nutrition, anyway???
By the way, it was the study at Duke that proved the Atkins did indeed work. Once you get past 40, low carb is the only way to take off weight, even with lots of exercise.
Prove to me this is unhealthy!!
Breakfast: cottage cheese, tomatoes, turkey
Lunch: Salad with grilled chicken
Dinner: Fish, salad, low carb veg, brown rice
Snack: string cheese, shrimp
Those who say this is unhealthy are the ones who snack on pretzels because they are "healthy". How many Doctors are trained in nutrition, anyway???
By the way, it was the study at Duke that proved the Atkins did indeed work. Once you get past 40, low carb is the only way to take off weight, even with lots of exercise.
Jul 7th, 2003, 04:21 PM
#57
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Okay, I'll rephrase my comment. It is ridiculous to imply that cardiologist does not know anything about nutrition. Do you know that these people train in medical school for another 15 years AFTER college? Strings and gplimpton are indeed wasting time. There is no way one can follow the above mentioned diet for the rest of their life when they are already overweight. 3...2...1...
Jul 7th, 2003, 04:38 PM
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did atkins... lost over 100lb... have kept it off (except for 15 lbs) for almost 3 years. My cholesteral was great and still is. My body felt healthy,I had endergy and I ate healthier than people who were on weight watchers.
Now for eating on the road..... Try stopping at grocery stores along the way and picking up things to eat. Keep a cooler.You might have to eat a lot of salads LOL. Chicken wings as long as they are they buffalo style.
Now for eating on the road..... Try stopping at grocery stores along the way and picking up things to eat. Keep a cooler.You might have to eat a lot of salads LOL. Chicken wings as long as they are they buffalo style.
Jul 7th, 2003, 04:59 PM
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"lindam": I haven't stated that Atkins is definitely unhealthy. My only contention all along has been that there is no way to know what the long term effects of this diet are, since there is no published data about this.
"lindam": *Any* diet will produce weight loss if you consume fewer calories than you burn. Period. End of discussion.
Exercise becomes proportionately more important with age as a buffer against declining metabolic rate.
The New England Journal just reported a study of Atkins vs. low fat diet which produced the same outcomes among participants at one year.
"jmathers": it's not 15 years after college. It's 4 years medical school, 3 years internal medicine and 1-3 years cardiology fellowship = 8-11 years after college (in the US, shorter in some other countries).
