It is unfortunate that business owners are so against giving additional vacation time that they only way it can become a reality is thru legislation. I prefer the concepts of Paid Time Off (PTO) where traditional sick time and vacation time is combined into a single bank which the employee can draw upon. Additonally, vacation time should be a portable based upon full time years of service whether or not it is with a particular employer. I get 7 weeks of PTO from my employer. I also provide 3 weeks paid time for employees of my small business as well as give a generous bonus each year. Technology and greater productivity is supposed to shorten our work week and not add to it. The average work week has gone up tremendously. Additionally, flextime should be made a mandatory benefit offered to all employees.

For the past three months I have been unemployed because of an unexpected company closing. (So much for the booming economy!) I was unable to take advantage of my time off to travel because I had to pay $225 a month for my HMO. I have since found a job back in the insurance industry and I can tell you that the only people in the insurance industry that makes any money is the executives/CEO. While they give themselves 4 million dollar raises (and that is no exageration!), their employees are working two or three jobs to provide for their families. My Canadian counterparts and I have discussed many times the differences in our healthcare systems. They both have their pros and cons but in my opinion neither is a solution. As for government in private business, I do believe there needs to be intervention to some degree because while there are alot of good, honest businessmen, there are alot of greedy snakes who do not care about the welfare of other human beings.

I find it interesting how this thread is going on while I am watching an American TV show on families who have no insurance. As a Canadian who has also experienced the UK system. Personally I hve never had to wait for treatment in Canada, nor have my family members. My grandfather had knee replacement within 5 months of deciding and when a growth was found on his throat they operated the next day. Frankly I think all coutries in the west have horror stories. I prefer to know I can go to a doctor and know I do not have worry abou paying for it. As for vacations, I am lucky my company gives me 3 weeks a year. Plus they allow you to take unpaid leave.

A system that is rapidly becoming popular here in the Netherlands is the "contract a la carte". The employer gives the employee a menu from which he can choose. More vacation? No problem, but you will earn less. Earlier retirement? No problem, but you will have less money or less vacation. Etc. I like to travel, so I have chosen to take 11 weeks of vacation per year. Other people prefer more money and only take 4 or 5 weeks vacation per year. Everybody is happy! I wonder which other countries have similar systems.
As to the discussion which is the "best" country in the world. this is a silly discussion. People in Northern/Western/Southern Europe, Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Singapore and a few other countries all have similar lifestyles and standards of living. Most of them prefer to live in the place where they were born, for obvious reasons. (language, culture, family, friends) The USA may have the best healthcare system in the world, but only when you have money. I will never forget the time when my mother needed urgent care while on holiday in the USA and the hospital refused to admit her until my father had presented the insurance papers.

Sjoerd: do you mean that if I get sick while visiting the Netherlands that all my care would be free, or that I'd receive all my treatment even if there were no way for the hospital to be sure I'd ever pay?

Vic,
You would receive emergency care in the UK also, even if you couldn't pay. It's based on need, you will be treated in an emergency immediately, no one will ask you where your insurance papers are or how you will pay for it.

Alternatives such as compressed week, where you work 9-10 hours/day and get the Friday or Monday off is offered in many companies already. You'll be amazed the difference that extra day makes.

Vic, actually, yes, if it is emergency treatment. They would send you a bill, but if you don't pay, what can they do? Actually, this was a real problem a few years ago as "tourists" from some countries came here to have free treatment. Now, people from these countries need compulsory health insurance before they can get a tourist visa.

The major reason for the discrepency in unemplyment rates is the way in which they are calculated. Our rate is NOT based on number of claimants but rather on surveys. If our rate was based on claimants then it would be much lower than the current 4% rate.

This discussion has been a lot of fun and it is interesting to read how others view things. I think that the important thing in all of this is not who is right or wrong. It is if you are happy with your own situation regardless of where you are. This applies to all aspects of living and not just vacations and Medical care. Many of us have different opinions of how things should be and that is great. That is what makes the world go around. So matter where you, just enjoy your life to the best of your ability.

Man, this topic seems to be hotter than the "Beautiful Prostitutes" thread. Lots of opinions here.

The variety of views on this subject demonstrates the dangers of judging a society by a single factor.

It's misleading to use vacation time alone to argue that Europe is more progressive than the US. It is also misleading to use EU unemployment rates alone to argue that European economic development is hopelessly depressed by antiquated socialist theory.

The "contract a la carte" approach described by Sjoerd sounds like the best solution yet. It might even help alleviate unemployment slightly because a fair number of people would choose additional vacation time. I seem to remember that unemployment in the Netherlands is among the lowest of the EU nations.

Not sure what this whole thread has to do with vacation and fairness. There is loads of "unfairness" out there ... just look around! As a provider and a consumer there is absolutley nothing fair about the health-care delivery system in the good ol' US of A! But that is just one of the major ills of this society ... leave? Okay, that is a choice but there are some positives too ... obviously ... and it could stand some improvement not just keep the status quo. Let's not get hung up that everything is "wonderful" and those seniors who choose between medicine and food don't exist, that many seniors exist on less than $800 a month of social security, that those uninsured are paying for care at an exhorbant rate - and they are the least able to afford it - that's why they don't have insurance and often do not seek tx until it is too late or twice as expensive to do so. Seems like many people are enjoying a very high standard of living - and with lots more than two weeks of vacation - and going to some pretty nice places for those weeks! So, stop already ... and even tho the topic is trite in the "real world," the other issues are off topic!

I'm Canadian, so obviously can't speak first hand about the US. However, I've spent 24 years basically with one company and get 5 weeks vacation. Actually it's been 3 companies - I was with a large company, our division split off and then we were eventually sold. If we had stayed with the original company, I'd get 6 weeks next year, with a bonus for 25 years service. The new company, when they bought us, did increase their maximum vacation allotment from 4 weeks to 5, so I didn't actually lose vacation, but I also won't get any more than what I've currently got. I have 2 observations to make - first of all, I have worked very hard over the years basically re-creating myself periodically to stay current and make career changes (albeit with the same employer). I'm tired at the end of the day - I never feel I have enough time for family and friends. My aging parents live 2000 miles away so I usually spend a couple of weeks vacation with them, although at times it doesn't seem like a holiday. I can't imagine having less vacation time than what I have now. I think more and more people will be in that situation - having to deal with aging parents and all that entails. How are we going to manage that?

Secondly, I agree with a lot of the other posters re the emphasis on work. I work with a lot of younger people or people who have moved around from one company to another, and I do find some resentment that I have 5 weeks vacation, whereas they usually have just 3. Because of the work that we do (I'm a consultant who usually works on projects with clients), I have to plan in advance. I usually can't take a holiday at the last minute - if I try to do that, there's usually no good time to take a few days off, so I have to plan. After 24 years, I feel I'm entitled to the time. I've worked hard for that benefit.

I work for financial reasons, not because my job is intriniscally interesting to me. I need that time - my personal life is far more important than my job.

Susan,
Actually large corporations in the States often operate under similar policies, add a week every 5-7years of service.
The a la carte version sounds so humane
and appropiate to actually living since people have different needs and desire. Even the role of work changes at different stages of life.
As I was reading through the thread I thought flextime has been a bit of success. Flextime is described as working 8 hours within the 7am to 6pm time frame. I have never worked for anyone that was progressive enough to allow that much freedom. So afraid they might lose a penny, when the converse is true, so silly. Is there some way to apply the principle of flextime to vacation time, I thought? And Surprise! The a la carte version, I'm glad one company/culture has the whole human in mind. Hopefully the States will move in that direction, albeit slow as molasses.
I have been hearing this argument over limited vacation since '83 and we have not move forward much in that regard. Flextime was a big breakthrough about the 80's, alot of business owners and corporation still won't consider the program and yes I understand it not appropiate to all industries.
Personally I left a longterm career job due to ageing parents. Tired of the long distance, only 350 miles, but too far when someone you care about needs assistance. Now there is a bill, passed in '92 that allows unpaid leave for matters of the family.
Since leaving I've found applying for jobs, often you can negotiate in an extra week even though they say their policy forbids it. It's an excuse. I assure you executives are not only taking two weeks, vacation is negotiable, just like salary, if your valuable enough, stock options too. They just are not going to tell you.
In the professional journals(facilities planning/work environments} I read there have been several articles about how to keep employees. The features like gamerooms, that use to be silicon valley area(Southern California Tech Co.)are more prevalent. Some people are job sharing, others are working out of their home office. It gives me hope to think a more progressive attitude towards vacation time may be on the horizon. So I say we are in need of a better way to offer choices to the average worker in the beloved USA.

The only real way to change anything is through attitudes. I definately believe we (US) should have more vacation time but we don't need more government involvement to try and change that. And we certainly don't need Al Gore (socialist). Our country is where it is today because of the liberties, competition, etc. Any time there is regulation whether it's health care (HMO's) or business, etc. you will see a decline in quality and economics. Instead, we need a change in our values and attitude. For instance, more family values and less greed. That may equate to lower salaries, backyard barbeques versus dining out, or not buying the kids those $100 pair of shoes. The same thing applies to Health Care. How many doctor visits are really unnecessary but because insurance pays, why not? From what I've seen of most middle-classed Americans (I can't speak for other countries) when something breaks they throw it away (cars, appliances, marriages). They're wasteful. They live above their financial means or at the very least to the limit, charging on credit cards and always wanting more, more, more. I'm sure my view is limited by the environment I live in but I see alot of "trying to keep up with the Joneses". Putting to much value on material things and not enough on families, culture, travel, vacations, education, and so on.

I voted twice for Clinton and I will vote for Gore. Over the past 8 years I have done much better the previous 12. George W. is my Governor and I can clearly say he is all style and no substance.

Instead about talking about people leaving the USA, we should try to listen to each other instead of "talking at each other." There are folks whose jobs are number 1 and vacation is second nature.
Those of us on the other hand are more family oriented and want more vacation to do things as a family. What do kids remember, the $100 shoes and as many Nintendos as desired or the extra time spent playing catch, assistance with a school project or going on a bike ride in the neighborhood?

Overall, I think the a la carte system in the Netherlands would please all of us. You that want to make tons of money and forget about vacation can do so, and those of us that would settle for an affordable paycheck, would get more vacation/family time.

Those of us who are not Americans continue to be amazed at how so many Americans throw around terms like "socialist" without having a clue what they really mean. Believe me, Al Gore is very far from being a socialist, as is anyone who continues to think that private industry should control the facilities that 100% of the population depends on, like energy, transportation, and health care.

I don't even want to begin to point out that to everyone else in the world, "liberal" means what you American insist on calling "conservative" or free-market capitalistic. The shift to the right in the US over the last decades is astonishing, but I assume it's because wealth is the only thing you value -- even more than vacation time to spend with your families (whom you also seem to hate). I'm sure this is a great generalization with lots of exceptions, but having spent time on both sides of the Atlantic, this is what it looks like to me.

Enyo,
As an American, I agree with everything you say -- except after the comma in the second sentence of the second paragraph.
While that may well be your impression, it is a rather ridiculous observation and comes across as a cheapshot.

Enyo's comments are definitely sweeping generalizations, but you and I know there's a kernel of truth in there. And it's not a small kernel.
Americans value material things more than any people on earth. And the importance of family has declined steadily over the past 40 years, faster with each passing year. It's a dangerous trend which has much to do with many of the social ills in the US.

As for Hondu's comments about his or her prosperity over the past 8 years, please don't try to give credit for the current economic cycle to Clinton. The cycle was in place and gaining momentum when he took office, and he doesn't deserve credit for being elected during a time of peace and prosperity.
I'm not big on GW and I think Gore's trying his best to look like a politician but doesn't know what he should stand for. "Just get me elected, then I'll stand for something...figure it out then".
I blame the nasty, aggressive media for making the potentially talented leaders of this country fearful of running for President. This year we have two who would have been also-rans during most elections during the 20th century.

Reading Enyo's comments reminded me of the reason our country fought for its independence over 200 years ago. Our forefathers saw what the ruling class or government could do and sacrificed in many instances their lives and wealth to establish this great nation. Keeping this in mind, I return to the original post.

The post was supporting legislation that would require businesses to give a certain number of days vacation. I don't see how you can have it both ways. If you want legislation to guarantee your "free" time, then it can also dictate your "work" time. People are looking to the government to take care of them. The idea of flex time, menu benefit selection, and extended daily hours to lessen the number of days worked all sound like reasonable solutions. I don't want the government in my life anymore than it already is. That is one of the basic beliefs on which this country was founded. Start legislating vacations and the next step is legislating they type and amount of work each citizen must do.

"The cycle was already in place and gaining momentum?" Another pathetic Republican whine/lie.

Let's examine the situation, shall we? Rich Republicans (i.e. corporations) benefit enormously when they have trashed the American economy, as they always do. They flourish when a recession is in place. They can hire all the part-time, no-benefit, low-wage labor they please because everyone is desperate for a job and willing to take whatever they can get. Remember the Bush years, and the Reagan years that led up to it? Yeah, just like that. What about the consumers for these corporations, you ask? Third World and developing countries are the marketplaces of the future, not America. We've become saturated and the markets are moving to newer, more fertile and cheaper grounds.

Now that Clinton and the Democrats have turned the economy around, the regular guy is benefitting, and the wealthy are gnashing their teeth. They are forced to compete for qualified employees instead of treating people like conquered slaves and enriching themselves on the cheap labor and desperation of the little people.

Which scenario do you suppose the Republicans will support if/when they regain the White House? Just watch and see. Anyone who isn't filthy rich and votes Republican is a fool. And
they will deserve what they get.