I tremble at the possible flames and hostility which seems to follow any mention of uncomfortable airline seats (and the people who over-occupy them). But I had to mention that the lead article in the August 2 issue of the Wall Street Journal was all about the new generation of Boeing 737s and how the manufacturer and airlines have elected to put in them the narrowest seats and the shortest seat pitch, and then with the longer range available from the new designs, fly them on transcontinental segments, like LA to Washington. The article presents a very interesting picture of corporate and consumer behavior.

I encourage people to read this article, and then maybe ask their travel agent next time not to put them on one of these aircraft. If enough won’t-be passengers vote with their feet (or other parts of their anatomy) maybe the message will start getting through to the airlines, especially their comptrollers. Okay, now I’ll duck.

I see no reason for you to duck!! It is the airlines that should be ducking because they continue to foist off cattle car conditions on the American public. We complain, but never do anything but gripe. I have reached the point that I will not fly certain airlines because of the atrocious seating. I cannot afford to fly first class. If anyone attacks you for your views, I will help you respond. I don't think they will. And I think your comments timely.

We strongly need a consumer advocate voice to speak up for us "cattle". I don't know who it might be or where the leadership might come from. But we need it. The situation is getting rediculous.

OOOPS. RIDICULOUS.
My typo was ridiculous as well.

I read a related article in N.Y Newsday which stated that airlines will be installing seats with THINNER backs in an effort to reduce weight and cram in more seats.

There is a report out of the Calgary Foothills hospital today that flying economy causes blood clots. Here is the reference:
http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/...airplane990803

So not only is it uncomfortable, it is potentially fatal.

The airlines have been so concerned with the increase in incidents of "air rage" and the danger it poses for passengers and crew.

At the same time they set the stage for it. They keep passengers standing in long lines at check in, cram hundreds of people unto narrow seats with no leg or arm room, give them awful or no food, sell them liquor, and then wonder why people lose it.

I find the whole process and practice of airline seating to be dehumanizing. Reducing people to animal status is just asking for it. I agree; the airlines lament air rage, and then set themselves up for it. One thing is for sure, the executives who make the greedy, profit grabbing decisions, are not the ones who have to face the irate, or even insane, customers. The poor flight attendants and desk attendants are the ones who have to face the music while the fat cat executives pocket their profits and bonus money. The old motto of make all you can while you can certainly holds here. I keep flying because I want to go to other places and driving takes much longer, or is impossible. But I am beginning to have second thoughts. Given the growing hostility of the flying public, I don't understand why some airline has not offered better seating. One would think there is a market for it.
I wonder if any airline executives dares stick his nose into this one? I would welcome a chance to make a direct statement to one of those folks. Or better still, I would like to have one of them fly from LA to London in cattle car class, middle seat of 3, sandwiched between two 300 pound seat mates, with the passenger in front reclining the seat all the way.

My wife and I just flew cross-country on a 737 (I think) with our three month old. We bought a ticket for her so we could keep her safe in her car seat. Unfortunately, there was so little room between the rows that the person sitting in front of our daughter could not recline her seat because it bumped into the car seat. We apologized to the person but there really wasn't anything we could do.

I agree with just about everything that has been said here. I guess the airlines think that all passengers are no taller than 5 feet, and weigh no more than 120 lbs....

But it's not just the 737....I REFUSE to fly on an MD-80. These are little more than giant cylindrical sardine cans...I'm so glad that they are being phased out by many of the airlines. I am a pretty big person, and I always find I have more room on a Boeing or Airbus plane than I do on a MD (even though they are now owned by Boeing) product...

I think that there are many factors that contribute to "air rage." One of these are the whiny business travelers who think that everybody should fall to their knees and kiss their feet. I was in DCA a couple of years ago, and heard this businessman berate the ticket agent because he couldn't get an upgrade.... These people, as well as people who INSIST on doing nothing while their kids scream their lungs out are what could cause me to get a case of "air rage" really fast.....!

Rich, I agree with you. I get angry when babies cry also. When one of my kids was little and started to cry on an airplane, we did one of two things. Either my husband picked up the little bugger and stepped outside so that no one would be annoyed. Or I would put my hand over the little creep's nose and mouth until he passed out and stopped screaming.

But on a serious note, did anyone see yesterday that Air France is being critized for refusing to board a man of size (375 lb) unless he bought two seats? I would be curious to know how Air France's seat size compares to other airlines. (I've traveled on Air France, and they seemed just about as cramped as any other carrier.)

Air France also denied boarding to a man with mental retardation. Now this is deplorable, in my humble opinion.

In the "olden days", (20+ years ago), I recall that seats were larger, travelers were treated with respect by the flight attendants, the food was special, and the stewardesses were sympathetic to a fussy baby, and helpful to the mother. Of course, airfare was more expensive then, relative to the economics.

I personally would be willing to pay slightly more to return to nicer traveling environment. I believe that this would cut down on "air rage".

However, I would expect that the airline management would also be willing to post lower profits, unions would have to be willing to ask for moderate salary and benefit concessions, and those CEOs would have to take a heck of a lot less, in order for it all to be a win-win for everyone.

I assume that the 375 lb man who was denied boarding was an American tourist, because as all us Fodorites know, there are no overweight people in France.

Good grief, here we go again! I'm still recovering from our last thread on 375 lb. people and small airplane seats! BUT I think Air France did the right thing; even if the seat was a little bigger with a better pitch so the average person would be more comfortable, the seat would still not be large enough for a 400# person to sit in without overlapping on his neighbor.

I, too, would be willing to pay more for flying as it was 20 years ago, more space, more respect, but I realize then that I couldn't afford to fly as often as I can now. As for crying babies, I don't think that can be avoided - that is a natural fact of life for people who must go half way around the world to see family. Letting children run wild on the plane is another matter altogether. Now that annoys me! Just my humble opinions, all!

Instead of two seats, they should have made the 375lb. man upgrade to 1st or business class -- but better 375lbs. than 375 kilos.

Because I was late to the gate (no fault of mine, the previous flight was late) and they had given my seat away, I was upgraded to business class by Northwest on a DC-10 flight (9hrs.) over the pond. All the food and drink that one can feed upon, each seat has a private TV with movies, no charge for headphones, plenty of leg room and pop-up footrests. I must say, it was most excellent.

On the other hand, I once paid $40 to upgrade to 1st class on a domestic Alaskan Airline flight (2 hrs.), that was completely pointless and a waste of $40.

For those of you who say you are willing to pay more, there is always business class (or 1st class).

AJ:

As I have seen elsewhere on this site, we are all very aware that you are a firm believer in your right to let your kids do whatever they want, regardless of common courtesy, or caring about anybody else's rights/feelings......

Rich, From what I've read in Consumer Reports, not all MD-80's, for example, are created equal. Each airline configures their own seating so you can get more space on one airline's MD-80 than on another airline's MD-80. I've found Delta to definitely be roomier, in general, than American, for instance.

Similar for overhead space. My small wheeled bag always fit in the 737 overhead just fine, but recently when I tried to place it there it suddenly didn't fit. I was puzzled until the attendant pointed out it was a new 737, with apparantly slightly smaller in height overheads. BTW -- I never pack my bag so that it bulges.

To Ron: RE: Blood Clots
The issue with blood clots forming while flying is a real concern - but not necessarily due to economy class. It has more to do with long flights and not getting up and about when you can. The pressure of the cabin - coupled with the sitting causes blood to pool in the lower extremities and not be cycled back up to the upper body by the muscle motion of the lower legs. Later, some hours, or possibly days after the flight, the clot(s) can break loose, travel upward through the heart and into the lungs, or possibly the brain.

Tammy Wynette died of a blood clot. Former VP Dan Quayle was hospitalized for same after a long flight.

As for myself, in 1993 I did 3 triathlons in one summer, took a midwest to Seattle flight (almost 4 hours), and the next afternoon suffered blood clots to the lungs. Was hospitalized a week, off work a month and take RX for life to avoid re-occurrence.

Doctors told me several things: 1. - Were I not in good condition I would not have survived. 2- Most people die where they drop before an ambulance arrives. 3. Age does not necessarily have anything to do with it. 4. When flying, be sure to get up and move around - and if sitting, exercise/flex your legs as if pedalling a bicycle, or being on a stair master.

Economy seats are smaller and more cramped than first class, but buying first class is not the sole avoidance of this condition.

In the late 60's and early 70's I was one of those "business" travelers. I was a sales Eng. for an aerospace Co.In one month in 1969 I compared my flight time to a Delta Capt's. I had 12 more hours flight time. Even then there were business travelers (salesmen)who thought they deserved special attention from airlines. I never could keep my mouth shut when I heard them berating airline personnel. I got in their face when they turned it on to vacationers. Fortunately I don't have put up with that crap any more. I will not fly. My 4WD diesel P.U. takes me where I want to go. I am sure things are worse today and I am still big enough to put the unruleeees down. To stay out of trouble I "ride ranger ride". Like Roy used to do.

We have just returned from a horrid flight from Cancun, Mexico, to San Jose, CA, via Mexico City and Guadalajara. Fourteen hours in total travel time. The flight from Guadalajara to California was particularly awful All we lacked was the crates full of chickens (Mexicana Airlines.) There were the crying babies, the elderly man who was talking to immaginary people and the literally fall down drunk who was detained at Customs here because he couldn't walk through the line or find his luggage. The preteen girl who sat next to me was hyperactive--that's no fault of her own, but the airlines should have made an effort to seat her with her mother who was two rows behind us.On one of the legs of this flight from hell, we waited for 1 1/2 hours before ever being offered a drink of water! And, no, it had nothing to do with rough weather. On the outbound flight I sat next to a very large (250 lbs. +) and very nice young man, but he took up his seat and half of mine. He fell asleep shortly after takeoff and rested his head on my seatback while he snored his way to Cancun. He was just as uncomfortable as I was! At about 25 years old, this was his third ever airplane trip and he didn't realize he had cattle car status. We took Mexicana because it's in the "Star Alliance" with UAL with whom we have FF miles. Never, never again! In June we are traveling to Los Angeles. After our cattle car run, we looked at each other and decided to take an extra couple days and drive in our own nice spacious, airconditioned car, picking up some wine along the way. We have the luxury of driving to L.A. where many do not. But, as long as the general public will tolerate such conditions, the airlines will continue to oblige. Pity the poor folks who got on at Guadalajara---for about half of them, this was their first flight. I have read several medical articles about the leg clots problems and think I recall that the British Government is very concerned and planning to intervene. Apparently, it's a fairly great danger for young women who are on contraceptives. As far as getting up to stretch your legs, the seatbelt sign was lit on the entire flight from Cancun to Mexico City and from Mexico City to Guadalajara.....crowd control, not weather. Someday, I fear, there's going to be a horrible incidence of air rage and they airlines will be liable for damages.

Just echoing Bonnie's remark that not all MD-80s are created equal. Try one of those configured by Midwest Express and you would know what I mean, with two-two seating and very decent food, too. Unfortunately, Midwest Express is being forced to reconsider how they will compete in the years ahead, too. I recommend them to anyone with a choice on a given routing (admittedly limited). But for all the talk about people being willing to pay more, the fact is that if you can't get enough butts in enough seats at the right price, things don't work out on the balance sheet. Price still rules out there for a large share of the air travel market.