Dear Fodorites,

I have been to Asia on several trips but this will be the first for my husband. I am eager to visit Vietnam and Ankgor Wat where I have never been. We are normally independent travelers but I came across a January '12 trip from Smithsonian Journeys for Vietnam.

The itinerary is:
US to Hanoi 3 nights, including Halong Bay cruise
Da Nang 3 night, including Hoi An
Hue 2 nights including Perfume River cruise
Fly to Ho Chi Minh City and continue to Mekong Delta, Can Tho, and Cai Rang 2 nights
Ho Chi Minh City 3 nights

The trip costs $4,700 pp including air. There's an available extension afterwards to Cambodia for 2 nights in Siem Reap and one night in Phnom Penh, including two days touring the Angkor Wat complex, a city tour of Phnom Penh and cruise along the Tonle Sap Lake. The extension, including tours, airfare and hotel is $995 pp.

First question - does this seem like a decent value? The package includes air, upscale hotels, all tours and a number of meals.

Second question - Is the itinerary good? Could we do it better ourselves? I'm certainly thinking that another day in Angkor makes sense after traveling from Vietnam to get there. Any opinions on that or the Vietnam itinerary?

Regarding theThailand portion, my husband really wants to visit Bangkok since we're so close. I've been there before but surely don't mind returning. How many days should we plan to extend at a minimum? I'm thinking 4. Also, since I've never been to Chaing Mai or
Phuket (or Phi Phi instead) so I'd love to add that on depending on final costs.

Finally, any suggestions of how best to route this to keep the airfare under control would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for all your help.
Linda

It's a very poor value. You can do the trip for much less on your own and schedule enough time to experience some of these amazing places. This itinerary will have you going from place to place without enough time to even see the major sights.

Three nights somewhere is just two days. A mere two nights in Siem Reap means you only have one full day of visiting the temples, plus perhaps part of another day. You want to have full days there, as you'll get the best viewing early in the day and late in the day and will likely want the middle of the day to cool off and rest. It takes three full days just to visit the "major" temples. If you have a real interest in Angkor, three full days won't be enough. We spent a week and would have enjoyed even more time. I'd highly recommend that you get a copy of Dawn Rooney's book, Angkor: A guide to Cambodia's Wondrous Temples to help you decide on your level of interest and how much time you'll want there.

Hanoi is a fascinating city. Three nights there including Halong Bay really deprives you of a chance to see much of Hanoi. Oh, and is the Halong Bay cruise overnight? People who like Halong Bay all recommend an overnight stay on a junk. Other wise, your "day" at Halong Bay consists of 7 hours of driving and a couple of hours on the water.

Anyway, I think you get the picture of my opinion on this itinerary. Independent travel is very easy to arrange in these countries. There is no reason to pay a company twice what it would cost you to design your own trip.

Typically, the least expensive flights to SE Asia enter through Bangkok.

Obviously, we don't know each other, and although I know from your post that you usually travel independently,that's all I know. So take everything I saw with a big "for what it's worth".

That said, we returned from 3 weeks in Vietnam (Hanoi, Hue, HoiAn and Saigon), Siem Reap and Hong Kong today. We both just turned 60, have traveled a lot but never to Asia, and have never been on an escorted tour (the kind you're describing). The only time we have ever been escorted at all was in Egypt (6 people and very difficult logistically, which SEA is most definitely NOT), and that was a private tour. We like first-class (I DO care about the decor!), but also value. Everywhere but North America, we tend to stay in boutique hotels. Our stays in SEA ranged from basic to total luxury.

So the first question is what kind of hotels do you like? And what hotels are included in the price?

Our itinerary was as follows:

Hanoi - 5 nights (which consisted of 4 full days plus the dreaded all-day trip to Halong Bay (that is, no overnight). We flew to Hue the night of the 5th full day. I would say Hanoi deserves at least 3 full days (plus the 1-2 days for Halong Bay).

Hue - 2 nights, which consisted of 1-1/2 days. We took a moto-bike tour (they drove, we sat on the back). In one very long day, we saw all the sights we were interested in seeing, and more that we didn't even know about). Hue did not interest us as a city - we were there to see the temples and pagodas and the imperial city sights. As for the boat on the river....meh. There are more efficient ways to tour Hue. We drove to HoiAn the afternoon of the second day, over the HaiVan Pass, which is very nice, but when you live near Highway 1 in California, probably not all that awesome).

HoiAn - 3 nights. We were supposed to have 3 full days and fly to Saigon at night. However, the third day it was raining, so we changed our plans and left for Saigon in the morning instead. HoiAn is a cute little town. We included it as a beach break, so we didn't really do any sightseeing there. We spent all day at the beach/pool, and spent late afternoons/evenings in town, just wandering and eating. By the way, we drove through Danang, and there is no way I'd want to spend 3 days there. There's really nothing of interest, and it's not attractive. There are some very high-end beach resorts, though.

Saigon - 2 nights, 1-1/2 days. We're glad we went, but 1-1/2 days was enough. Saigon is a place to "be" rather than to "see". There aren't many specific sights to see. We did not go to the Mekong Delta.

Siem Reap - 4 nights (3-1/2 days, of which two very very long days were spent sightseeing the temples. We saw 7 temples/sites in those two days. If we had wanted to see more, we would have wanted an R&R day before continuing. It's exhausting!!)

Hong Kong - 4 nights (3-1/2 days). Just right for the city, but we didn't have time to go to outlying places such as Lantau or Macau.

I agree with Kathie that arranging travel in SEA, and actually doing the traveling, is very easy. Unless you want to be escorted/traveling with a group, I'd skip it and do it myself.

As far as the stated cost, it's hard to decipher without knowing where you are flying from (and therefore how much the R/T airfare would be if you arranged it yourself) and which hotels are included in the price.

I just realized that $4700 plus $995 is PER PERSON -- that means the trip would cost $11,400 for 16 nights. For what THIS is worth (and again, which hotels are included makes all the difference), we had 20 hotel nights, the same internal flights (minus the one between Siem Reap and Phnom Penh), but we used miles for the intercontinental travel. Still, we spent way way less than the tour price, and I'm including all meals, sightseeing and souvenirs! But, if you're staying in all hotels like the Sofitel Metropole in Hanoi, well, yes, it's going to add up LOL.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Kathie. That set me straight right away! I'll get the book you recommend for starters. Since I'm starting early on this planning I'll give it a lot of thought. My husband and I do like to take enough time to see different places so now I know we'll do it independently and more slowly.

The propsed Vietnam package was already 2 weeks by itself and that as you suggest isn't enough time to do it justice. Then add on adequate time in Cambodia and Thailand! I guess I'll have to figure out how many days is realistic before tackling a lot of Thailand too.

You can do Cambodia a lot cheaper without a tour and its a very easy country to find your way round. If you want to temple for 3 days. I'd suggest an extra day in Siem Reap in the middle. The three day Angkor Wat ticket can be used over more than 3 days. (Assuming you don't get it clipped) We did this last year and the 'chill out' day was very relaxing. Admittedly I stay fairly down market but the price of the extension sounds very high. Guides are about $20 - $25 per day (can be arranged through your hotel) Tuk tuks are about $15 a day for 'local' temples, more for outlying ones. Also meals are very cheap in Cambodia. You may be better making your own decisions with regard to restaurants than being taken to ones that give kick backs to the tour company.

I'm not sure what the cruise along Lake Tonle Sap entails but if its just to the local floating village treat with caution. (Read tourist trap)

<<<Guides are about $20 - $25 per day (can be arranged through your hotel) Tuk tuks are about $15 a day for 'local' temples, more for outlying ones. Also meals are very cheap in Cambodia.>>>

Confirmed! We paid $17 for one day (and that was arranged through our admittedly luxury hotel), and the next day, we went really really far (really too far for a tuk-tuk, but we still preferred it to a car) -- Kbal Spean, Banta Srei and Beng Melea -- and paid $40 (worth every penny). We did not use a guide for the whole day; at most places we just guided ourselves with the help of a guidebook. In two places, we used a guide who worked for a tip (Kbal Spean and Beng Melea) -- this wasn't so much for historical information (although there was some of that), it was for help getting us around the sites themselves - not so easy at Kbal Spean and Beng Melea)

As for meals, by the time we got to Siem Reap, we were already tired of making plans and going out of our way to "known" restaurants, so we just ate "whereever" in town (town was walking distance from our hotel), and were pretty successful - no great food, but no total dogs either. A typical dinner (2 beers, 2 salads or appetizers , 2 main courses) was about $12.00. Of course, there are much more expensive places, too.

Speaking of which, Kathie, I wonder what kind of tip would have been appropriate at Kbal Spean (up at the top, someone who walked us around and pointed out the river carvings) and Beng Melea (someone who got us through the rubble without killing ourselves LOL). I'm asking here because this information should be helpful to lvs.

We paid the guide $5 at Beng Melea. My friend is in her mid 70s and the woman who 'guided' us around was very caring and made it a very comfortable trip for her. English skills were not good but, as you say, its more for the assistance. I'd say $1 for the ones at the top of Kbal Spean. We clambered up on our own as i had been there before.

Also Beng Melea does not come under the same ticketing arrangement as Angkor Wat. I think its $5 for the ticket. Still well worth the trip in my opinion. $40 would be about right for Kbal Spean, Banta Srei and Beng Melea. Its a fair trip.

I use the same tuk tuk every time I go to Siem Reap and probably pay him a bit extra because he's become a friend. (Last year he took us to his home to meet his family.)

<<<We paid the guide $5 at Beng Melea. My friend is in her mid 70s and the woman who 'guided' us around was very caring and made it a very comfortable trip for her. English skills were not good but, as you say, its more for the assistance. I'd say $1 for the ones at the top of Kbal Spean. (We hiked up ourselves)>>>

That's exactly what we gave them - $5 at Beng Melea, and actually, $2 at Kbal Spean ($1 at first, and then another $1 later....he first got up and met us as we turned right after the bridge at the top -- and didn't see a single carving (we didn't know what we were looking for). Then it ended up he took us around the other side, too (to the waterfall) so we gave him another dollar. As I said, worth every penny. Who's your tuk-tuk driver? Ours was Mr. Too, and although he spoke very little English, we really liked him. And yes, the ticket at Beng Melea was $5.00.

My tuk-tuk driver's name is Saveth. When my daughter went to Siem Reap 5 years ago she had to walk past his stand every morning on the way to work. After a while he realised that she was a 'walker' as opposed to a customer and they just said hello to each other. He's a nice young bloke with reasonably good English skills and she used him whenever she needed a tuk tuk. Lots of Australian friends (and parents) visited her and he got the regular bookings. He showed me some photos from his son's christening party (Buddhist - not sure if terminology is right) and there were a lot of expats there.

At Kbal Spaan I offered to buy him lunch (my usual practice) and he declined saying that he got a free meal for bringing me. My meal was only about $3 so there can't be a huge profit for the stall holder. I thought it was nice as he could have done a private deal and ripped me off.

<<<At Kbal Spaan I offered to buy him lunch (my usual practice) and he declined saying that he got a free meal for bringing me. My meal was only about $3 so there can't be a huge profit for the stall holder. I thought it was nice as he could have done a private deal and ripped me off.>>>

Interesting, we to offered our driver lunch, and even a bottle of water, and he turned down our offers. We ate lunch at Banteay Srei and noticed that he ate too(separately, with other "workers"). I assumed his lunch was gratis -- even at that price, a tuk-tuk driver just doesn't make enough money to be eating lunch out every day.

way too expensive... do the vn part by yourselves with the help of tonkin travel or another hanoi agency... i loved them last fall..

When I travel solo, Saveth sometimes eats with me but I think he prefers some time out. Its hard for drivers and guides to speak English all the time. There is dual pricing in Cambodia even though tourists usually wouldn't notice it. (The balloon was $15 for us and $7 for Saveth.)

Sounds horribly over priced. I'm all for pre-arranging things but great deals can be had but just chatting with the locals. We found a tuk-tuk driver at the bus station who spent the whole day driving us around and giving us a simple guided tour including some not-so-crowed spots for $10. Accommodation wasn't much more/night (for a guest house).

If you're an independent traveler, i suggest you to have a freer schedule, meaning more time to see and enjoy each destination rather than strongly stick to the tour program. Hanoi is a very interesting destination, i think you should lengthen your time there. If you love beaches, never miss Mui Ne, Nha Trang, Lang Co and Phu Quoc in Vietnam. Vietnam (+ other SE countries) are quite safe so just travel freely. When you love a destination too much, just stay there more, vice versa, move to a new place. Hope you have a memorable trip.

I am in the process of planning a trip, so I can't speak to the actual experience. It does seem short on time in places from the research I have done and the responses on travel boards. I do know people who have done Smithsonian tours and have only praise for them and these are generally independent travelers.

I second using Tonkin -- we have been working with them for our 3 weeks in VN in Feb and they are extremely easy to work with...very responsive. Price wise, they seem to get a slight discount on hotels equal to Agoda, AsiaRooms etc. Tours are a touch higher than arranging them there.

That sounds really a lot to do such a trip like that. I have several recommendation as follows:

1.North Vietnam: Hanoi - Ha Long Bay - Hanoi.
In this part, you will need about 4 days if time permits.
Day1. Hanoi City Tour
Day2. Drive to Halong Bay, and overnight on the Junk.
Day3. Back to Hanoi
Day4. Fly to Hue

2. Central Vietnam: Hue - Danang - Hoian
Day5: Hue City Tour
Day6: Hue - Danang - Hoi An
Day7: Hoi An
Day8: Fly to Ho Chi Minh City

3. Ho Chi Minh City - Mekong Delta
Day9: Cu Chi Tunnels - Half day city tour
Day10: Drive to Caibe floating market, tour around, then go to Vinh Long for homestay.
Day11: Vinh Long - Long Xuyen - Chau Doc.
Day12: Speedboat to Phnombenh. Arrive arround 14:00
Day13: City tour in Phnombenh: Killing Field, Toul Sleng Prison, Museum.
Day14: Flying to Siem Riep
Day15: Get the 2day-pass for Siem Riep
Day16: Siem Riep
Day17: Fly out.

Here all I can recommend for you and for all Fodorites who plans to do the trip like this.
Have a good time.

Hello LVS
your tour schedule is sound good, i am just wonder within 4.700 USD plus 995 USD extension around trip international air fare, it mean from you native to country and return. because fly from vietnam, to cambodia and Laos is consider international air fare as well. more or less i am pretty agree with Cathie suggestion. with that price i guess it must be very 5 stars accommodations and private not joy with others.