My wife and I recently returned from a 24 day honeymoon excursion beginning in Santiago, including a 14 day cruise around the horn and into Uruguay before docking in Buenos Aires. We then spent 4 days in Buenos Aires and then 3 days in Mendoza. We had the most wonderful time and our trip report will be in the form of our honeymoon blog site. Suffice it to say that we loved Buenos Aires and the people.

There is just one thing that I feel must be said here though. I am going against my core belief system in one sense because I am not usually one to complain about another person in public. I just learn and move on. However, maybe this will be benificial in helping someone else finding themselves in a similar situation.

It was litterally less than 10 minutes after we got to our hotel room when I got the phone call. A gentleman with whom I had been corresponding in doing research for our trip was on the other end giving me an "Offer you can't refuse". He offered to pick us up from our hotel, take us on a tour of the city followed by lunch at "a place of your choosing". Afterwards he would drop us off at San Telmo for the Sunday fair. I accepted his generous offer with gratefulness. He then informed me of one hitch in the offer, there was one other couple going with us and, since his car didn't seat 6, my wife would have to sit on my lap. I reluctantly continued to agree knowing that would be a tight fit.

He showed up a little later with his wife driving and immediately upon looking at the car, I knew we were in for a cozy ride. We rode for about 10 minutes where we picked up another couple who got in the back seat with our host. My wife squished onto my lap in the front seat and I kept one hand on her backside so that our host's wife could shift gears. On our driveby tour of the city, if it wasn't out the right side of the car, we didn't see it. I didn't care much, because the real reason I was there was to meet this man and talk with him.

During the "tour" we were asked where we wanted to eat. My reply was that we had eaten not too long before leaving the ship and that all I wanted was a good salad. The other couple had no input either as to which restaurant to choose. Our host informed us that since neither of us had made a decision, he was making it for us. I believe two of the words he used in his description were "fancy" and "French". I could be wrong on that. He took us to FERVOR.

I sat at one end of the table between his lovely wife who spoke no English, and my wife. The restaurant was quite noisy, so I spent the entirety of the meal not hearing 95% of what was being discussed at the other end of the table. I was getting the distinct feeling that the couple who didn't have to sit on top of each other were the guests of honor and that my wife and I were secondary. I can't recall the number of times I had to lean forward and say "excuse me?" And I found that a shame because I was finding our new friends from the UK to be very friendly and interesting. I would have liked to have spent more time getting to know them. And as for the food... I ordered what I had thought was to be a salad featuring hard boiled eggs. What I got was a salad consisting ENTIRELY of hard boiled eggs. Period. Just 7 hard boiled eggs. 22 pesos.

Part of our discussion at the table consisted of my telling of our credit card woes since we had left home. That 2 of them were not working - And that 3 big checks that were supposed to be deposited were not, forcing us into a budget we were not expecting. That we were just hours in the city and didn't have any local currency was let known as well.

The check came. Our host picked it up and told us all to give 130 pesos and that would cover everything including tip. I suggested that since we didn't have any cash that we pay with our credit card and take the cash from the other couples. All agreed. Then our host took 50 pesos from my hand and said that was what I needed to pay for the tip. I told him at the time that I was under the impression that tipping in this country was customarily 10%. He corrected me and told me that was what I needed to leave for a bill that was $368.

Itemizing the tab goes briefly as follows:
host - $139
guests of honor - $165
us - $64

We received $210 in cash after the tip so our share paid was $158 ($47.48 USD as the visa company charged us) for a salad, a plate of grilled vegetabled and a coffee. I watched others at the table eating very delicious looking salmon and chicken. Our host didn't even finish his meal but ordered 2 desserts. I did not complain about this out loud at the time. I was a guest and the tour was not over.

Or was it?

We got outside the restaurant and our host told us that we needed to take a taxi to get to San Telmo. He immediately went to hail a cab for us. He couldn't get rid of us fast enough. I had to insist on going back inside his car to pick up my camera. before getting the boot. I would have liked pictures with the lovely couple from the UK for remembrance sake. And a picture of the resaurant and our host for visual is telling this portion of our story would have been priceless.

Live and learn.

I just found out today in getting back online that the couple from the UK was actually dropped off at San Telmo. Our host actually made good on his word to them. They didn't have to pay for a cab. Good for them.

I'm afraid I'm the "gentleman with whom I (the OP) had been corresponding in doing research for our trip".

I cannot answer all this at this time, but I'll get around to it later.

In the meantime, I hope Crellston, who was the other person at the table, will give his version.

I too would like to hear what else happened but my first thought was "Isn't it really unsafe to drive around sitting on each others' laps?" Why would the driver even think that was ok? Sure, Todd could have said no but I understand he really wanted to meet rooster and thought he was going to be treated respectfully.

Sheesh....this is dodgy all around.

I visit this forum once in a while, most of the time I over at TA BA forum.

But

I have been to Buenos Aires twice. On each of those trips I had dinner with AVRooster along with going on his tour with other tourists who were visiting Buenos Aires. AV was the one the introduce me to one of my favorite things to do while in Buenos Aires. That is to go horseback riding at Estancia Los Dos Hermanos.

AVRooster is not looking to take advantage of any tourists. Just the opposite he wants to share the good and even the bad points of living in Buenos Aires. When he was doing tours he was not charging anything for it. I was free.

AVRooster is not unique in this because over my two trips I found some Portenos that are not jaded with tourists who are visiting Buenos Aires and these Portenos go out of their way to share their city and some will have dinner with you too.

I have to say some things what ToddPBrown wrote does not make sense to me, but I figure AV cannot please every tourist he meets.

For me on my next trip to Buenos Aires I will do the same thing I enjoy the most. That is to go horseback riding at Los Dos Hermanos. Have steak at La Cabrera. Have dinner at Casa Saltshaker. Visit Recoleta Cemetery and Feria De Mataderos again.

I will still have dinner at the restaurant where AVRooster drive us too in his car, along with any other tourists that are visiting. I know there are others that have dinner with AV and never had a problem too.

Bill

http://www.WilliamBert.com

i hope AvR will do me the honor of having a meal with us on our visit in april....while we have had little formal exchange i have read with interest many many of his fodors exchanges....no one ever seems to have any issue with him at all....

?????

Thank you, Bill (wcbert) and rhkkmk!

More later, just doing some research, before I reply in full. Do not despair! LOL!!

You received a lot free advice from a local about the area in advance of your trip; the local picked you up and showed you the city; and you feel cheated because his car was too small, the bill at the restaurant was divided equally when you had not ordered as much as the others (you paid 158 pesos or about 90 pesos more than your actual bill) , you were stuck at the wrong end of the table with the cad's non-Enlish speaing wife and you had to take a cab to San Telmo after lunch?



I am not sure about where you live... but in my part of the United States, when someone corresponds with us in advance to offer free advice about their town and gives us a tour of the city, we would offer to pay for the lunch of our host...and we probably would not expect them to rent a larger car or teach the wife English so we could hold a conversation. Just some food for thought...

Dr. Dawggy:
I was pleased to read your response to 'Beware...' as you expressed my sentiments (and my Southern belle upset)so well.

It is clear to anyone who has followed this and other Forums(a) that avrooster is a decent and generous man who volunteers to certain visitors his time, knowledge and appreciation of his region. And on TA and Fodors he volunteers his ideas, breadth of knowledge and sooo much time to all of us!

I only hope his knee is improved, and that he will be in town, so my husband, friends and I can meet him, and his wife, in Buenos Aires in February.

Thank you for all you do avrooster -your guidance is very much appreciated.

~MarnieWDC

My wife and I, as well as another couple we travel with, have visited a number of places around the world.

Never have we met anyone as gracious and generous as Avrooster and his lovely wife. They wined and dined us at their own expense and introduced us to their lovely family.

Av loves to show people (and show off) his wonderful City. That being said, he does have his own opinions (don't we all?) and we wouldn't have it any other way.

I followed his posts going back over two years on TA and Fodors before getting in touch with him prior to our BsAs trip in October of this year.

His insight and advice helped us enjoy BsAs to the max, and we not only thank him for it, but hope that he and his wife will someday visit us so we can return the favors.

The twisted old phrase "You can please some of the people some of the time, etc, etc" comes to mind in this post by ToddPBrown.

AV: we love ya' in Minnesota!

tptr

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, Todd. However, I am floored that you are complaining about it on a public forum no less. AV has responded to your questions and offered you advice and was gracious enough to take you around his city which to me is incredibly kind and nice. You pay him back by criticizing him. (Even if AV had not identified himself, I think many of us would have known to whom you were referring anyway.) Unfortunately I did not get to meet AV on our visit to BA, but I know from reading his posts, emailing with him and reading the many compliments people have paid him on this forum that I missed a great opportunity. What's the expression, no good deed goes unpunished? I think that applies here.
AV has given me tons of great advice and assistance. My advice to him, don't waste your time responding to Todd.

Many, many thanks to y'all, as they say in the Southern US!

Doc Dawggy: I particularly enjoyed your "the cad's non-Enlish speaing wife". LOL!!

tptr: is it cold enough for you up there in the Twin Cities? LOL!!!

I have an answer almost ready, but, if I go on reading these wonderful posts, I just MAY take yestravel's kind advice not to "waste your time responding".

I am in no way defending Todd or criticizing Mr Rooster. In fact the only reason that I am responding is so that Av doesn't "waste his time responding" I would really like to hear his side as well as something else from Todd.

This board is so civilized and nice, unlike some of the other forums. We need to be able to post and read an unpopular opinion, it makes it a well rounded exchange of ideas.

I too feel like some of you, that if someone shows me a good time I will pick up the tab, that AV gives tons of great advice here for free and that sometimes you just don't have a connection with someone that you meet on line when you come face to face.

An example of this for me was when I hired a very popular guide for Paris, everyone on the Europe board loves this person. Well, I met a totally different person than the one everyone else met. I did feel a need to tell the other side, and in so doing, I heard from one other person who also had the same exact experience with him, the rest of the people still loved him. I felt that it gave people searching for a guide something to consider before making their own decision to hire him, and in no way did I want to wreck his business, just wanted to tell the other side.

Now what is really irking me is another trip report where the poster gets upset that everyone speaks spanish?????

I would have responded earlier but my better half said I had to calm down before responding, Allow me now to respond as one half of “the other couple” Clive and Carolyn. Firstly, let me say that I have a somewhat different recollection of events but that in itself is not surprising, as in any group interaction people tend to view things from different perspectives.

Firstly, yes six in a 5 seater car is always going to be a squeeze , but if Todd didn’t like it then he should have said so at the time. As for us being the “guests of honour ”and Carolyn not having to sit on my lap, not wishing to be in any way rude, but I feel that this was simply a question of practicality as Todd was larger than anyone else and the front seat offered more room for two (particularly as Alberto was recovering from a serious knee replacement operation and was in pain). I suppose I should have volunteered to sit on Todd’s lap to provide the ladies with more room but firstly, I am quite big myself it would have been virtually impossible and, secondly Todd and I had only just met and I really prefer to know someone a bit better before getting that up close and personal (only joking!!)

The choice of restaurant. Avrooster asked us all THREE times where we would like to eat and and provided the choice of “a cheap Parrilla (non touristy,) Fervour an upmarket Parrilla (with a few tourists) or an Italian ”. My input to the decision making process was to say “I really don‘t mind” Alberto, probably fed up with the indecision (I know I would have been!)eventually said that as no one could make a decision he would take us to Fervour - as I recall everyone agreed and I for one was certainly happy that the only Porteno in the car was making a decision!

As for settling the check. Personally, I would never venture out with a group with cash in my pocket even if I had just arrived a few hours and whilst I was sorry to learn of your credit card problems, they are your problems and no one else’s. As for the spilt of the bill, this is always a problem with strangers meeting for the first time, but I have always viewed it as the norm to split the bill equally, but would have have absolutely no problem with some one asking to just pay their own way, if felt this way then you really should have spoken up at the time rather than holding a grudge. My only problem was after we had left Alberto and Teresa, Carolyn remonstrated with me for not paying Alberto’s share of the bill as a token of our appreciation for taking the time and trouble to drive the 40 miles from his home into town to show us around. If it had been just the four of us I would certainly have done this but chose not to in case it put you in an awkward situation

As for being left out of the conversation at the table, I do recall that you were less forthcoming than the rest of the table (including Teresa - the non English speaker!! who at least made the effort to speak what little English she could!). How many times did you even attempt any Spanish (yes I do know mine is pathetic but at least I try). I did hear you say excuse me once or twice just like I heard Alberto speak to directly to you several times only to get no response. Personally, I enjoyed the company of everyone at the table. I had no problem hearing what anyone was saying and I too was at one end of the table. If I had any problems hearing anything, then I would simply have asked everyone to speak up.

As for the food, yes, the “egg salad ” was a little strange. Here’s a novel idea, ever thought of sending it back? The salmon was absolutely delicious! You are correct that Alberto did not finish his meal but in the Argentine fashion he did offer to share it with the table. By the way, Albertos wife also had a salad, so you were not the only one. The desserts were ordered for the whole table and this was made clear at the time (obviously you did not hear, but it was obvious) Alberto was IMO simply being a good host and trying to provide an insight into the Porteno ways, clearly he did not succeed in this.

As for your giving a breakdown of the bill in a public forum. This is just bad manners.

Finally, as for our ride to San Telmo, why I am bothering to mention this I do not know as it is nothing to do with anyone but those concerned. When leaving the restaurant, Alberto asked if he could drop us anywhere and I immediately said San Telmo without whether this would take him out of his way (which it did) however, Alberto being the true gentleman, would not take no for an answer when I tried to refuse.

Todd, I am sorry you feel the way you do, but would suggest that before resorting to a diatribe in a public forum such as this that you email the “offender” with your issues, better still reflect upon what you write before posting. In future, if you have a problem say something rather than let it fester. In essence, get over it. No one is interested.

Where is your gratitude for all the free advice you received beforehand from Alberto ?

Alberto, both Carolyn and I enjoyed our time with you and really appreciate the invaluable advice you have given both on this forum and by email. As I mentioned to you in my email of a few weeks ago, if you do decide to come to London in April then Carolyn and I would be delighted to show you around “my town” and of course dinner is on us (assuming of course that we are not back in Argentina by then). If you do need any advice before then please email me and I would be delighted to help (and beware the Europe board there are some strange folk there!!)

Happy New Year travelling to all….

Susanna, I agree that when one is hiring and paying for the services of someone recommended on this board it is perfectly fine to come back with an opinion giving one's perspective. I agree it is useful to hear dissenting views. However, that was not the case with Todd and AV. AV was offering as a fellow fodorite to take Todd around and have lunch with him. Todd did not hire AV as a guide nor do I imagine Todd paid AV for his advice.

I think I know the posts to which u refer about the person getting annoyed with everyone speaking Spanish. Yes, that part of her posts present a rather amazing perspective. But unlike Todd's post, she is not complaining about a specific poster on this forum.

Todd Brown:

I am sorry that you were disappointed with your tour and lunch with the Portenio host in Buenos Aires.

My wife grew up in Buenos Aires coming to Canada at age 17. So her Spanish is perfect and she is well aware of most of the city and the local custom.

We have visited Argentina twice so far, both times for 2 months and with that background I must say that we were always well treated by everyone we met.

On our first trip we were at an intersection in Bs. As. trying to find a specific location. We asked a passing business man for help. He stopped and tried but did not know what we required. In turn, he stopped another person for help and soon there were 4 or 5 around us offering assistance.

There was no reward for them, only the giving of their time and concern.

Another time we were on a day tour and as we were getting on the tour bus,a local man, also touring asked - in English - if we were having a good time? Were we being well treated in his country?

If that were to happen to me in Canada or the US I might have a heart attach from the shock.

Once coming back to our hotel late at night, we did not have small change for the bus. The driver said not to worry that he would have change by the time we got to our hotel. On arrival, he did not have change and said we should not worry and let us off - no payment. Try that in New York.

Yet another time we were approached in a smaller town, and asked if we would converse with that person in English. They wanted to practice. Try that too in New York, Detroit or Chicago.

We spent a week touring in San Jose province and our guide, Marcelo, could not do enough for us. He constantly telephoned to his office asking about weather for our safety. [Afraid of heavy rains.] He would provide us with water so we would not dehydrate in the very hot weather. He was respectful and answered all our questions. He accepted us as friends introducing us to his family before we left.

Many times I was not permitted to carry my luggage. I was treated as if I were an old favorite uncle. I expect that is how life was in Canada perhaps 75 years ago when 'elders were respected'.

We have never felt threatened in Argentina but no doubt they have bad people as we do at home and everywhere else. We have more than our share of incompetent people as no doubt all countries do. I don't expect miracles.

Our only poor experience was in Mendoza where the local travel agent did a very bad job. Well, even I have only been perfect when my children were small [and didn't know the difference].

We are going back again to Argentina this winter and expect to have a great time.

The people have always been pleasant for the most part. The food was wonderful. The weather was a pleasant shirt sleeve temperature, not -30ºC.

Could our travels have been better? well, yes, I missed our Hungarian seeded rye bread and I have had enough jamon y queso sandwiches but no so much that I want to stay home for them.

If you were not happy with your host's behavior, perhaps they were not too thrilled either?

Woodie

Thank you, Susanna, Crellston (some post!), Yestravel and Woodie!

Susanna would "really like to hear" my side of the story, so I'll probably present it.

I think that Crellston gave a great "other side" to the story, I don't need any more to form my decision on the matter, in fact, I'll be there Feb 19th in case anyone, including Mr. Rooster, would like to have an informal GTG!



yestravel: I agree that I hired someone and that this service was free, but ,when I am on vacation I don't want to waste time, so if I read this post it would give me something to decide before taking up even a free offer.

If you were not happy with your host's behavior, perhaps they were not too thrilled either?
Perfectly said!

This is my reply, as far as I can recollect something that happened several weeks ago:

I "met" the OP in this forum. If you click on his screen name, you can check how many of his questions I answered here. Besides that, he sent 12 e-mails to my personal e-mail and I sent him 17 replies.

More specifically:

1) I made the mistake of trying to fit 6 grown adults in my car. Once the mistake was made, I tried to make the best of it. It won't happen again.

2) The restaurant I suggested (Fervor) could be described as a "fancy parrilla", featuring great grilled fish, which is quite unusual. There is absolutely nothing French about it.

3) I humbly apologize for not having helped the OP with his salad order. He never said it was NOT what he wanted. Crellston and his wife ordered fish, as suggested and were very happy with it.

4) About the restaurant's check: I believe, according to the OP, that the amount to be paid was 368 pesos. Local habits dictate that the check is usually split equally, regardless of the cost of what each participant eats and drinks. So, I tried to find a round figure, which included tip and would be easy to split 3 ways and decided 420 pesos was about right, as it was 140 pesos each, requiring no exact change, which would complicate things. I plead guilty to the crime of not having explained all this adequately to the OP.

When the OP said he wanted to pay with his credit card, Crellston and yours truly gave him 140 pesos (not 130, as he says) each in cash (two thirds of the 420 pesos total). The cash required for the tip (50 pesos) was, as the OP says, deducted from these 280 pesos in cash. The OP kept 230 pesos in cash (140+140 - 50 tip), not 210 pesos, as he says. The restaurant got the 368 pesos the OP paid with his credit card and the staff got the 50 pesos tip, which makes a total of 418 pesos. As Crellston and yours truly contributed 140 pesos each, it is a fact that the OP contributed 138 pesos, not 158 pesos, as he says.

I agree this was sort of unfair to the OP, considering his "itemized" tab, which I cannot argue with, as he kept it, but it's the way it's usually done here. This reminds me of many, many years ago, when I argued with my friends, because I was the only one who did not drink and I had to pay for their wine, when we dined together, I always lost that argument. LOL!!!

5) About transportation to San Telmo: by the time lunch was over, my recently operated knee hurt like hell and yes, I wanted the whole thing to be over ASAP! So, yes, I suggested the OP might cab it to San Telmo. Then, I asked Crellston did they want us to drop them at their flat, which was just about on the way to our home. When he said they also wanted to go to San Telmo, I said to myself, OMG! and felt as if I had been kicked WAY below my waist, but somehow or other managed to mutter that we'd be glad to take them. I plead guilty, as charged, to not having told them to cab it, which was also unfair to the OP, as I told Crellston, at the time.

6) About the OP's "I was getting the distinct feeling that the couple who didn't have to sit on top of each other were the guests of honor and that my wife and I were secondary.", I'm afraid I lack the training to answer that kind of thing.

So, as the OP well says: "Live and learn".

The OP posted the following on 11/20/2008 at 06:07 pm, in my A REALLY dumb decision! thread:

"Confucious say: Sometimes I appreciate a good hearty laugh in the middle of chaos. It does the soul good."

Hail to CONFUCIUS!

I'm sorry that this is somewhat unrelated to what's going on in this post, but as I am the poster who "complained about people speaking spanish" - in case anyone on here did not see my post responding to this in my buenos aires trip report thread, I wanted to put it on here as well. As I re-read what I've written, I realize how it sounds, and I apologize for the brattiness and if I offended anyone. Truly, most everyone I've met here has been extremely friendly, teaching us spanish, and speaking whatever English they know with us. I thought I could get by with a little translator, but I find it awkward to actually take it out and use it. I suppose it is my fault for not knowing Spanish, and I wish I did, but in my other travels abroad I guess I found more English speaking - which is NOT a criticism of Argentina, just my limited experience. Anyway, all I wanted to say is that the tone of my post is now what I meant it to be, I was very frustrated about how horribly we were treated in the restaurant, that's all.

now = not