drchris

Responses to my previous post have convinced me to shorten my itinerary. Looks like I can either leave out eastern Switzerland, which means missing the Bernina Express, or leaving out Zermatt, with the Gornergrat excursion. If we leave out eastern Switzerland, we will also miss the part of the Glacier Express from Chur but can still pick up the Andermatt to Montreux portion. I checked the train schedule to see if we could go Andermatt - Disentis, then backtrack to Andermatt as Rick Steves suggets the Disentis to Brig section of the Glacier Express is the best. Would we miss a great deal by not seeing the Disentis to Andermatt part of the trip, or is there some other way to pick it up from Luzern besides backtracking?

Looking to you Switzerland experts for help! Thanks!

enzian

DrChris, I haven't seen the rest of your itinerary, but I have some comments. You can't see all of Switzerland on any one trip, but any part that you see will be great. It wasn't until our fourth 2-week trip that we made it to Zermatt, and we still haven't been to the Engadine nor have we ridden the Bernina Express. I am saving that for a time when we can devote the time and attention it deserves.

As for the Glacier Express . . . I know that the conventional wisdom is that the "best" part is between Brig and Disentis. I have not traveled between Andermatt and Disentis---maybe that is the best part, with high bridges and amazing glaciers. But I have ridden from Andermatt to Brig, and from there to Zermatt, and it wasn't any better than many hikes we have done there. I have also stood on the platform at Betten, where the Glacier Express does not stop, but passes by. The people I saw on the train had been riding for many hours and their expressions looked glazed over and tired.

I have also ridden the Gornergrat train ( e hiked up from Zermatt to Riffelalp and then rode the rest of the way) and thought is was one of the best Swiss high mountain excursions I've experienced. It is a short ride but scenic all the way. On a clear day you will see the Matterhorn most of the way, and at the top you will look down upon glaciers---a sea of ice.

Given a choice between riding the Glacier Express for many hours (like 8 or so) and spending time in Zermatt and riding up the Gornergrat, I would choose the latter.

Dukey

Having done all three my advice would be, do at least the full bernina portion if you can..all the way from Tirano to Chur.

The Gornergrat ride isn't nearly as scenic overall and if the peak is obscured...I would agree that looking out over the Monte Rosa Massif is impressive. As to glazed looks, I've seen those IN Zermatt and I love the place...even the fake guy herding the goats through the village.

The ride UP from Brig/Visp TO Zermatt is scenic IMO.

Overall I agree you can't do it all in one trip but you sure can cram a lot in and I think you should cram as much as you CAN in..forget "depth" and forget everyone else's experience including mine..it is the memories YOU come away with that are important.

Palenque

Would we miss a great deal by not seeing the Disentis to Andermatt part of the trip>

IMO no - having been over that stretch many times - as dukey sats the Brig/Visp to Zermatt ride is awesomely scenic - much more so IMO than the Disentis to Brig - does Rick Steves really say that stretch is the most scenic of the Glacier Express route? I'd say even the Chur to St Moritz is more dramatic.

altamiro

I don't get it : In my eyes the Disentis to Andermatt (Oberalppass) stretch is the only part where the GE actually goes over a high pass, and is THE most scenic part of the run, especially the zig-zag descent into resp. ascent from Andermatt.

drchris

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose, as always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Palenque - yes, Rick Steves does say that "The most distinctive stretch of the trip is the high-mountain pass between Disentis and Brig." Rick Steves' Switzerland, 4th ed., p. 271.

My dilemma is that there is so much of the world we have yet to see, this will probably be our only trip to Switzerland, although we may be able to include parts we don't see as part of a hoped for trip to northern Italy or to Austria. So I'm torn between "cramming it all in" and seeing fewer areas with more leisure. My original itinerary was based on some train trips I'd seen in tour brochures, with more time in the Berner Oberland thrown in.

Another question. If the Matterhorn is under clouds, thereby nixing the Gornergrat excursion, is Zermatt worth the time training in and out? One friend who has traveled the world said it was the most beautiful place he had ever been (in my travels, so far, Cape Town, South Africa gets my vote for that).

I do try to keep in mind that whatever we see will be a new and beautiful experience!

Palenque

If you are in Luzern and want to see what i consider the absolute highlight of Switzerland i would hop on a train that went over the Brunig Pass and down into Interlaken. The Brunig Pass route is IMO every bit as scenic as the Disentis to Andermatt section of GE- after the pass the train creeps down to Meiringen then rolls along the shores of lovely Lake Brienz to Interlaken-Ost - gateway to the fabled Berner Obereland -the Jungfrau Region - a wonderland of glacier-girdled Alps- tiny mountain trains a whole lot more scenic than the Distentis-Andermatt thing- thrilling arial cableways - trains up to Europe's highest train station - the Jungfraujoch. Plop yourself down in some s weet village like Wengen or Grindelwald and you do not even have to leave your hotel balcony to get drunk on the intoxicating vistas.
There are great boat rides on the idyllic lakes that bookend Interlaken (Inter-Laken)
Check out places like Murren, the Schilthorn, Gimmelwald (Rick Steves did NOT invent it though he helped put this really unique and neat isolated farming hamlet on the American tourist map) - if this is your only trip to Switzerland and you have not seen this area then i would highly recommend this area over any other. Look strongly at a Swiss Pass that covers nearly every train, lake boats, postal buses, etc.
For loads on Swiss trains, lake boats, passes, etc. i always spotlight these fab sites: www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free European Planning & Rail Guide that has a good chapter on Switzerland by train with maps - itineraries, etc.

enzian

The Gornergrat excursion isn't just about the Matterhorn views. It was obscured most of the day we went up there (didn't come out until we were on the way down). It was actually snowing as we hiked up to Riffleberg, and still cloudy when we reached the top. It was the view down to the glacier that we found amazing, as well as off in the other direction, toward the Mischabel group.

As for Zermatt being "worth the time"---it's hard to say. We went there for hiking and loved it. But if your goal is to see the Matterhorn itself, that may or may not happen, expecially if your visit is a short one, with a single night in Zermatt.

If you are still weighing this against the Bernina Express, I'll say that you could easily work that one into a Northern Italy trip. Say you are staying in Varenna on Lake Como. the trip to Tirano to pick up the Bernina Express is 1.5 hours. You could ride the BE over to Pontresina and back in a day, or spend a night in Pontresina to see the area. Or do a loop returning to Italy going either east or west through the Engadine, although either of those routes involves a section by bus.

TravMimi

I've been many times, and some of the places I never miss are - Zermatt, and the trip up the Gornergrat, and Mt. Titlis on the Rotair from Engelberg. Ice Flyer on Titlis is always a must for us.

gruezi

For me, living in Switzerland for going on 4 years now, Zermatt is cool to see because, well, it is an icon. OTOH, in terms of shear continuous beauty, and charm of the town, it ranks far below the Berner Oberland and the Engadin. The Gornergrat is lovely, and snowy, and cool, but so is the Bernina Express.

If I had just one trip to Switzerland I would go to the Berner Oberland and stay in Murren or Wengen. If I could squeeze in the Bernina Express I would.

It would be nice to see your whole itinerary so we could tweak it a bit...

BTW, please don't believe you will only get to Switzerland once. Life is uncertain...

Also, for some details, please check for my trip report here by searching on "A Tiny Tasting" it describes a 5 day trip I did with a friend Zurich to the Engadin to the Bernina Express to Milan. Wonderful!!!

Finally, my husband and I will do a roundtrip Bernina Express this Sunday. It will be very long, but we will bring food, wine, reading material. I am excited and hopeful for nice weather.



gruezi

MLF611

Gruezi, I found the Bernina Express trip just too long, I could have done with a few hours less in the train. To each his own...even in first class, I got uncomfortable in the seat after all those hours.
A photo tip--instead of taking photos from your window seat, go to the end of the car (by the doors) and you can push down the window to get great photos (and fresh Swiss mountain air) without any glass reflections.

Palenque

Gruezi, I found the Bernina Express trip just too long, I could have done with a few hours less in the train. To each his own...even in first class, I got uncomfortable in the seat after all those hours.>

Are you talking about the Glacier Express, an 8-hour marathon ride that most folks i know find yes tedious after a few hours

The Bernina Express, at least the classic part of it from St Moritz to Alp Grum, near the summit of the Bernina Pass, is only about an hour each way from St Moritz and the whole thing, down to Tirano, Italy is under 3 hours - for most folks there is simply no reason to go beyond Alp Grum - the highlight of the trip, with the glacial lake you can walk around - can walk to the glacier, etc. One hour each way from St Mortiz.
The portion down to Italy is yes scenic but not nearly so dramatic as the top of the world type scenery around Ozspio Bernina (sp?) and Alp Grum - two stations you can walk between.
The only reason to go down to Tirano, Italy is if you want to connect with the Italian trains to Lake Como or Milan and on - The Bernina Pass line is a neat way to go between Italy and Switzerland and is the only train line to go up and over the Alps north to south rather than burrowing under the Alps like all other Switzerland to Italy train lines do.
Oh the Italian portion - a lush valley with neat northern Italian church steeples and houses is nice but the really awesomely scenic portion of the Bernina Pass rail line is up near the summit - which makes it to me the most scenic rail line in Switzerland by far - including the Glacier Express - about the most over-publicized over-hyped rail line in Europe IMO - it's nice and scenic the whole way but nothing to compare to the Bernina Pass rail line.
The Glacier Express ironically gets its name from glaciers that it now burrows under by the Furkha Tunnel - the GE once went up and over the Furka Pass and did pass within viewing distance of glaciers there but to make possible year-round running of this tourist gold mine all year the Furka Tunnel was built - the only glaciers today on the GE you may glimpse are on the portion Brig to Zermatt as you near Zermatt.
The GE even charges a steep supplement for folks with railpasses - even Swiss Passes - about $35 i think whereas the Bernina Express charges a more normal reservation fee. And there are also hourly about regular trains on the Bernina Route you can just hop on - reservations not even possible - same scenery but without the commentary and special hostess the official Bernina Express trains provide. the Bernina Express trains are called the world's slowest express train (along with the Glacier Express) but in the Bernina case it is only an express since it does not stop at all the little hut stations the regular trains do so is somewhat faster all in all.

Byrd

The Bernina Express trip certainly was not too long for us.

We took the train from Chur to Tirano, where we had lunch, and back to Chur. It was an unforgettable day and not at all tiring to us.

And we're old!

Byrd

enzian

Just a thought, drchris, but if you haven't bought your flight tickets yet, consider flying into Milan.

You could then take the train to Tirano (2.5 hours, no changes) and start the Bernina Express from there. You could ride the Bernina Express, maybe with an overnight in Pontresina (5.5 hours from Milan). Then continue to Luzern--4.5 to 5.25 hours. Overnight there and then take the Golden Pass route (the one lauded by Palenque above) as far as Interlaken Ost, and detour to Lauterbrunnen for several days in the Berner Oberland region.

From Lauterbrunnen, return to Interlaken and continue on the Golden Pass route to Montreux, OR, you could get off in Spiez and detour to Zermatt for a couple of nights. Then return to Spiez and continue on the Golden pass line to Montreux (4.5 hours Zermatt to Montreux by this scenic route).

This route would include the Bernina Express and Golden Pass routes, as well as time in Zermatt and the Berner Oberland. . . and leaves out the Glacier Express, which seems to be less favored than the others.

Again, just a thought. You might take a look at the rail map to see the various options----just google "Swiss synoptic map" and it will pop righ tup. I can't post a link because it's a PDF file.

drchris

Thanks again or all the wonderful help!

Palenque,
I love reading your posts! Is it important to do the Lucern - Berner Oberland trip from North to South (apparently it can make a difference on some routes)?

Enzien,
We have already booked our tickets and are flying into and out of Zurich. We are using frequent flyer miles so we have to fly where seats are available when we want to go.

Gruezi,
Thia was the original itinerary, which all the posters said was too rushed. It was based on some train tours taken from travel brochures. It includes the range of train times from the timetable.

Day 1 - Saturday
Arrive Zurich 8:05 am

Zurich - Lugano (William Tell Express)
3 3/4 – 4 1/4/hrs

Day 2 - Sunday

Lugano – Tirano – St. Moritz (Bernina Express)
6 ¼ – 9 hrs

or Lugano – Tirano – Chur
8 – 11 hrs

Day 3 - Monday

St Moritz – Zermatt (Glacier Express)
7 ½ - 8 ¼ hrs

Or Chur – Zermatt
5 ½ - 6 ¼ hrs

Day 4 - Tuesday

Zermatt – Gornergrat

Leave late afternoon

Zermatt – Lausanne
3 hrs

Day 5 - Wednesday

Lausanne, Montreux, Vevey, Chateau Chillon

Day 6 - Thursday

Lausanne – Interlaken (Golden Pass)
3 ½ - 4 hrs

Day 7 - Friday

Jungfraujoch or Schilthorn
Lauterbrunnen Valley (Murren, Wengen, Gimmelwald)

Day 8 - Saturday

Interlaken – Luzern (Golden Pass)
2 hrs

Or Interlaken – Bern – Luzern
2 – 2 ½ hrs

Day 9 - Sunday

Lucern – Zurich
1 – 1 ½ hrs

Day 10 - Monday

Depart Zurich 11:55 am

gruezi

Well it does sound like an awful lot...

I would cut out the Lausanne leg... and maybe Zermatt/Gornergrat as well if you will get to Jungfrau. My problem with Zermatt (after you've seen the Matterhorn) is that it seemed no different to me than any Vermont ski town and I'm not a skier... But I was there in winter and perhaps it is more charming in summer.

I love the Bernina Express, the Wilhelm Tell (boat ride is amazing in good weather) and the Berner Oberland region. Even Luzern which so many love, does not hold the appeal for me that it does for others beyond a 3 hour stroll (and I also love the Rosengart Museum) and then head for the Wilhelm Tell Boat. If I have time, fine. But I would never choose it over a chance to go to Murren...or Wengen where beauty and lovely walks abound.

Zurich gets a bad rap here on Fodor's, but we like it more than Luzern or Lausanne...Luzern does have a good location for great scenic day trips however.

gruezi

MLF611

Palenque, I meant exactly what I said, I did not mean the Glacier Express. I do not need you to "correct" my posts.

The journey started in Chur, not St. Moritz. Due to track problems, there were several delays that added almost two hours to the trip. I did this in winter and the staff said delays can (and do) happen then.

It was interesting, but I preferred the Golden and the Voralpen journeys.

Palenque

MLF611 - My apologies - i did not think you were going from Chur to Tirano - but what the majority of Bernina Express trains do - go between St Moritz and Tirano. And what you said about it many people do say about the Glacier Express - so sorry i jumped to conclusions.

Palenque

You have two options for the Bernina Pass rail route (a road parallels it the whole way for drivers) - the official Bernina Express - seat reservations required and the hourly or so local trains that do not even take reservations - you just hop on - some prefer the Bernina Express with its fancier seats and observations windows in some cars and commentary en route (not sure that is still done but was last time i went) - but on the regular trains they will not be full as typical the BE trains can be - or quite full - even in first class IME (ditto Glacier Express) and on the locals you can hop from window to window and i believe the windows on these trains can even be lowered. And in summer there are even open-air flatbed cars so you are totally surrounded by nature - bring a sweater however as at the pass it will be much cooler than in lower Tirano or St Moritz.

Palenque

If you want to take the official Bernina Express then you should reserve seats far in advance to be guaranteed seats on a certain train - like the Glacier Express many tour groups book up these trains - regular trains however you just show up and hop on.

For booking (no ticket or railpass required to book i believe) here is the official site of the Rhaetische Bahn, the railway that operates the Bernina Express

World Heritage Pass, Rhätische Bahn, RhB
UNESCO World Heritage Pass - A masterpiece of railway engineering. The century-old line across Albula and Bernina is regarded as a true masterpiece of the ...
www.rhb.ch/World-Heritage-Pass.1069.0.html?&L=4