Yet Another AirBnB Question

Old Dec 18th, 2015, 10:36 AM
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mominthepark; I have to tell you we had a very good 3 bedroom apartment, with 2 1/2 baths.
The layout was great. [Consider a triangle with a bedroom at each point.] With a living room in between.
We arrived early and were let into the apartment to drop our bags while the apartment was still being cleaned.
Our contact person was with us then and immediately answered a few calls after she left.
Local markets in the immediate vicinity.
Entirely different from what fuzzbucket suggested, but I can only talk to our experience, not to the tens of others who rent apartments in Paris.

While we rented thru a third party, Airbnb, we ended up with specialapartments.com Ref #022
The rug was soiled and I did mentioned that in a follow up conversation, but there was not much else wrong with this apartment. Six of us in this apartment and we were not living on top of each other.

We loved the location.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 10:51 AM
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I can't disagree with sandralist, but the risk is so minuscule.

Consider, people do not get put out on the street.

We have done our share of European travel, 34 trips this past summer.

On all those trips, we have had a few problems with hotel reservations. Things happen.

It seems like the law has started to go in the legal direction.

Airbnb has started collecting city taxes starting last November 1st.

It seems like companies like Airbnb have to now report the collected city taxes to the French Government.

Perhaps it's only a start, but it seems like this may force owners of short term rentals to pay the required operational fees to become legal.

Mom; This apartment we rented was lovely.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 11:06 AM
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For some reason these threads seem to focus on AirBnB and its particular issues and relationships. (I realize this post specifically asked about AirBnB) If you want to look for an apt rental in Paris there are many rental companies aside from AirBnB. The same legal issues face most of them.
I agree with sandralist - people need to be aware of the current issues regarding rentals in Paris, but don't need moralizing over it.

I disagree with some of fuzzbucket's characterization of renting an apt. We have always been let into our apt at our arrival or close to it. If the apt still needs cleaning, then we can leave our luggage and return at a designated time. It has never been a problem in Paris or elsewhere in the many rentals we have done over the years. We have always managed to figure out the w/d and not had to use a laundramat. I have seen lots of apts with more than 1 bathroom esp when they are 2 or 3 bedroom units.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 11:18 AM
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Exactly Iris, that's the way I see it from the start.
Basically nobody is really against renting apartments in Paris.

Simply, what happens now is
- shortage of apartments for locals
- shortage of money for Paris authorities (strange isn't it ?)

So Paris has decided to put some regulations in rentals.
Which involves declaring revenues from rentals.
Which is not nice for somebody who acquired an apartment, rents it and put 100% of the revenues in his/her pocket (I would not be happy if I were in that situation).

So what happens now :
Paris asked to get the 'residence tax' for each night spent in an apartment. AirBnb, which cannot care less, agreed.
So Paris gets 1,5 € per occupant per night per apartment rented. Ok.

Now authorities say : good, in order to do that, you have a listing, so give us the listing, so that we can check that owners declare these revenues.

Then, authorities use a screen of smoke such as : apartments must comply with safety, we have a shortage of apartments for natives, apartments are a distortion of competition towards hotels, native have to cope with lousy tourists who come back at 3 am and don't care about noise.

All of this is true of course -must say I've woken a few times in hotels by tourists, I didn't like it when you have to wake up at 7 am to work - made sure they knew I was up by 7).

But authorities are after money.
Apartments are a god way to get it. With no impact on locals (know a lot of Parisians who sleep in hotels ?).
Plus : do tourists vote in Paris elections ?

So, get the money from owners and tourists and blame them both for behaving illegally - something I do too...
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 11:28 AM
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pariswat; You know I like you, but had a hard time understanding all your comments.

But I am 'slow', however mostly you reflected on conjecture.

I can't help or stop gentrification as it is happening in many, many major cities, not just Paris.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 02:50 PM
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If renting vacation apartments was really as unpleasant as Fussbucket would have you think, I'd never rent them either.

Perhaps when she was renting her own apartment out as a vacation rental, that's what her renters complained about, but it's not the reality.

Most vacation rentals are happy to let you drop your luggage early, in fact many will state so in the overview of the apartment.

And tho a genius I'm not, I can still figure out those washing machines. Most rentals have instructions anyway. Not terribly difficult.

Jeez, just try to keep it real here.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 03:25 PM
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Iris, that Parisian apartment is beautiful!
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 04:13 PM
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<Jeez, just try to keep it real here> Agree, as tens of thousands of apartments are continually rented in Paris and some attempt to scare a few here on Fodor's.

HappyTrvir; It was indeed a lovely apartment.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 04:34 PM
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This may be a naive question, but I am not familiar with the way AirBnB works in France, not how income is routinely reported. Does AirBnB not already report the income from their rentals to the Government?

We rent our guest room in our home, here in the States, through Airbnb, and they dutifully report that income to Uncle Sam at the end of the year so we can pay our taxes on that income like the good little citizens we are. We do not object because even after taxes the income makes a significant addition to our travel budget.

Is there not already a similar body of regulations in France that requires employers and businesses to report such earnings?
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 04:47 PM
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nukesafe; Believe me, you opened up a can of 'worms'.

However, it will surely be interesting!!
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 08:00 PM
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My question is the same as Nukesafe's. I know nothing about how businesses in France operate, and if they're required to report to the tax authorities what they pay out to anyone renting their guest room or an apartment. But I cannot imagine that it isn't reported by Airbnb, just as it is in the US. So it isn't as if cash is passed under the table by guests on arrival. Airbnb keeps the books and deposits the income in hosts' bank account. So why all the nonsense about unreported income and avoiding taxes? Assuming the company does more or less as they do other places, the income is duly reported to the tax authorities. And how do those flapping on about unpaid taxes know that taxes aren't being paid? Or am I wrong?
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:13 PM
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AirBnB is an American-based company. US law requires American companies paying income to people to file forms with IRS. AirBnB is not required to file any forms to the French national income tax authorities.

Many government bodies around the world lack laws to regulate AirBnB and Uber. They are relatively new phenomena and have been operating in the a shadow economy. (Somebody has observed that when poor people purchase services in this way it is called the "black market," and when affluent people with money and time on their hands do it, it is called "the sharing economy.")

http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Uber-Ai...omies-20150927

It was only in September of this year that Finland adopted laws that required AirBnB landlords to declare their rental monies as taxable income. And I believe they still lack the reach to require AirBnB to file papers on Finnish rental owners. Finland made a similar judgment about Uber taxi drivers, despite the fact that no decision has been reached in Finnish government about whether Uber is even legal in Finland.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:21 PM
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You stated my question more clearly than I, MmePerdu. Money cannot be "passed under the table" when dealing through Airbnb. The money goes from the renter to Airbnb, who holds it until 24 hours after check in. It is then transferred to the host's account. Airbnb has a record of such payments, and only needs push a button to send that earnings information to any governmental body that needs it.

That does not address the, relatively minor, amount of money various municipal governments may require as payment for local occupancy taxes, but the agreement between Airbnb and Paris/San Francisco seems to form a model for clearing the air on that front. I talked to the Mayor of our rather small town and she said that the miniscule amount of revenue that would come from charging such a tax would not justify the cost of collecting it.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:24 PM
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Btw, welcome to understanding the world of online commerce, where an online company in a faraway place can out-compete your local tax-paying businesses while never paying a dime in taxes to your locality. Too bad for you residents, your schools, your infrastructure -- but somebody's getting rich and others are enjoying a cheaper __________ (fill in blank with whatever you purchase online now instead of from a traditional taxpaying vendor: shoes, books, tourist accommodations for your holiday ....)
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:24 PM
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oh, and taxi rides too...
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:26 PM
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(I guess nukesafe missed my post. We were talking about France and its lack of authority over an American-based company.)
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:31 PM
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>>>Airbnb has a record of such payments, and only needs push a button to send that earnings information to any governmental body that needs it.
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:38 PM
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Yes, Sandralist, our posts must have crossed online. My question, I guess, was in line with your comments, i.e., does France currently have the authority to require Airbnb to submit those income records? If they have the clout to require that, and/or Airbnb submits those records voluntarily --- tax problem mostly solved, I would think.

This was a problem in the States, when I could joyfully order things online from out of state tax free. Mostly solved now, and Amazon now adds State taxes to my bill. Sigh ---
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:38 PM
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Anyway, here is a fun (?) article about billionaire Brian Chesky, the whiz who started AirBnb, and why not every city defines "sharing" the way AirBnB does

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven...b_8318702.html
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Old Dec 18th, 2015, 09:40 PM
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just repeating my previous answer in response to nukesafe's question:

"Whether or not foreign governments can compel American companies to turn over this type of information is a matter of legislation and often international trade agreements -- which are written by lobbyists hired by wealthy tax-dodging corporations who buy politicians to protect their interests, not the interests of the people of Paris."
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