"I wouldn't fit in politically. There are way too many things I would have an issue with, like lack of public healthcare system, a way too religious climate, too much patriotism, significantly right-wing policies from my point of view, death penalty, and so on... I would be outraged all the time."

Interesting point. Is there less dissention where you live? I live in the US and I have spent my entire life feeling a good amount of outrage. It would be a very new experience to live in a place where I felt I was in the mainstream all the time, where there was no need for political activism, for constant debate.

Sounds like Shangri-La: beautiful but unattainable, and not necessarily a place in which I would be comfortable.

"it would be a very new experience to live in a place where I felt I was in the mainstream all the time, where there was no need for political activism, for constant debate. "

interesting point!

Most American seem to be passionate about politics, so committed to their party - one has only to observe presidential races!

Political discourse does go on in other Western countries, but on a very different scale.

Well, in most of the other countries, we don't have a two party system. People can more easily vote for a party that matches their ideology, but of course then the party has to make compromises if it enters a coalition government. It tends to make things more interesting -- and more frustrating!

We dont have to pay tax on our cars, and our cars cost HALF as much as yours do!! Your stupid VW Polos cost the same as our Mid Sized Sedans!

Your Jettas cost 30k and ours cost 16!

You have tons of rain, we dont!

You are crammed on an island that is the same anywhere you go.

You killed all your forests!!

You have speed cameras!

ok thats it, other then that i would kill to live in the UK lol

Clairobscur: "There are way too many things I would have an issue with, like lack of public healthcare system, a way too religious climate, too much patriotism, significantly right-wing policies from my point of view, death penalty, and so on..."

I live in Massachusetts: no death penalty, almost no public displays of religion (except for the occasional rant from the Catholic Church over some political matter -- and you can't tell me that doesn't happen in Italy or Spain!), we're patriotic but it's not compulsory, we have some right wingers but not many, we have gay marriage and very comprehensive healthcare. I think you'd feel a bit more home here than you might in Oklahoma.

"Interesting point. Is there less dissention where you live? I live in the US and I have spent my entire life feeling a good amount of outrage. It would be a very new experience to live in a place where I felt I was in the mainstream all the time"

It's not, of course, that there's no dissent where I live. It's that there's no contention about the specific things I mentioned (apart from death penalty, and even less and less so as new generations come), and take for granted.

If I were to live in the USA, I would still have most of the cause for outrage I already have, plus many others that I'm spared living in France, some of them more outraging to me than anything I find outraging in France.

"I think you'd feel a bit more home here than you might in Oklahoma."

Possibly. But I still would have to contend with the political climate in the USA as a whole. For instance, an hour ago or so, I watched on Youtube a video where Palin is making a speech about the importance of doing God's will. Living in Massachussets, I'd still have to contend with the fact that someone who thinks that the nation should align with her god's plans and that she has any business lecturing his electorate about religion has a fair shot at becoming president.

And that's a random example I picked because I just watched this video.

I would hold out until the next leader is chosen. At this point, if I had the choice and option, I would leave the US.

bkluvsnola

Where I live in Canada we rarely have any snow at all, we have our annual flower count in Febuary,, and we have no tornados, hurricanes, or blizzards,,, look it up.. its paradise..
We are a very popular tourist town, and a cruise ship port. American love to come here, and do by the thousands..



Victoria B.C.

"Where I live in Canada we rarely have any snow at all, we have our annual flower count in Febuary,, and we have no tornados, hurricanes, or blizzards,,, look it up.. its paradise..
We are a very popular tourist town, and a cruise ship port. American love to come here, and do by the thousands.. Victoria B.C"

bozama,

How many days of rain do you get per year? How long is your winter rainy season?

We get 300 days of sun in Austin. I get depressed if I don't get enough sun.

We don't get that much rain, I mean yes we get rain, but nothing like your Seattle or even our Vancover..

Victoria is where everyone wants to retire cause its soooo nice here.

Austin is hot as hades in the summer isn't it?? Everyone needs airconditioning right?

Guess people are used to where they grow up,, desert people like heat and flatness, mountian people like mountains , island people love the coast etc.

But, the question is would you move to the States, and my answer is still no way,, there is no where in the States as nice as here( well , there may be parts of Oregon that are close) but still there is your health care situation, and your guns laws, and frankly I don't know any Canadian who actually thinks either of those two things are any good in the States..

The fact is , most people who come from civilized 1st world countries do not want to move to the STates,, its not like you have a crush of Swedes or French or Canadain immigrants is i??? No , of course not, you do have alot of immigrants, but they usaully come from countries that are economically poorly or have repressive regimes. So many Americans think EVERYONE wants in,, nope, everyone does not.

<i>The fact is , most people who come from civilized 1st world countries do not want to move to the STates,, its not like you have a crush of Swedes or French or Canadain immigrants is i??? No , of course not, you do have alot of immigrants, but they usaully come from countries that are economically poorly or have repressive regimes. So many Americans think EVERYONE wants in,, nope, everyone does not.</i>

But this should not be taken as an indictment of the US or indicative of a widespread reluctance to move to the US, in particular. Even within-country mobility is significantly lower in Europe than in the US. Saying that your average Frenchman would not move to the US means little, because it isn't clear that your average Frenchman is eager to move very far, at all.

To get to a more accurate assessment of the desire to move to the US would really require answering a few questions, including:

1) What would be the farthest you are willing to move from your current home?
2) Are you willing to move from your home country?
3) Are you willing to move to a country whose first (and primary) language differs from yours?

Only after you answer those three questions can you separate the causal elements of one's decision to not move to the US. My guess is that the number of people who give answers to those questions that wouldn't preclude the US is relatively small. It is from that small pool that you can deduce any real reluctance to move to the US, that is separate from the more mundane questions of distance, language, etc.

&quot;It's not, of course, that there's no dissent where I live. It's that there's no contention about the specific things I mentioned (apart from death penalty, and even less and less so as new generations come), and take for granted.&quot;

That about sums it up for me too. Australia has its pro-gun and pro-death penalty cranks, creationists, opponents of abortion and foetal stem cell research and so forth, even a few who don't like universal health insurance, but they've lost the argument, in most cases by a wide margin, and they wield little influence.

That doesn't mean everything in the garden here is rosy, and sheer apathy can sometimes be mistaken for tolerance. For instance, Australians generally accept the siphoning off of tax dollars to non-state schools, which should generate widespread outrage, whereas I understand that state aid to church schools was ruled unconstitutional in the US many years ago.

I agree that Americans are more active in politics than my lot. By and large I suppose they do have more to be active about, though.

It's also true that the view from Boston MA can be very different to the view from Charlotte NC. The problem is that in the Federal sphere th emore backward parts of the country can hold back the more advanced northeast and northwest regions.

<i>The problem is that in the Federal sphere th emore backward parts of the country can hold back the more advanced northeast and northwest regions.</i>

Bahhh... What really happens is that both parts discipline the other. There is no problem. Instead, the federal system ensures that the interests of the urban minority doesn't, automatically, overrule the interests of the rest of the country, and vice versa.

The northeast and northwest denizens want to think that they are more &quot;advanced&quot;, but they aren't. They are just more arrogant.

&quot;Only after you answer those three questions can you separate the causal elements of one's decision to not move to the US.&quot;

To say the truth, I would answer &quot;no&quot; to all three questions. I've no particular interest in leaving France. So, my position was very theoretical. Basically, my answers stand if, for some unknown reason, I *had to* leave my country. Note that in this case, the pool of potential destinations would be limited because I would rather live in an affluent democracy.

Nevertheless, the USA would, in this case, be towards the bottom of that short list, for the reasons I mentioned, only above Japan and Israel. If I had to move, I would probably move to Spain, or otherwise another European country. I would, in all likehood, be pretty unhappy in the USA.


Note also that I assumed in my answers that the move was permanent. If we're just talking about living somewhere for, say, 2 or 3 years, my objections about social values or politics wouldn't be relevant anymore (apart from some extreme cases like North Korea,Saudi Arabia,Iraq,Somalia, etc..). Still, the USA wouldn't be on the list because of my second point : I want a country with a lot of history, impressive monuments, and so on. So, North-America (actually probably *all* of the Americas), Oceania, the Arabic peninsula, and sub-Saharian Africa would be out.

&quot;The northeast and northwest denizens want to think that they are more &quot;advanced&quot;, but they aren't. They are just more arrogant.&quot;

perhaps for a reason : the &quot; Bible belt &quot;does not reach that far!

&quot;Austin is hot as hades in the summer isn't it?? Everyone needs airconditioning right?&quot;

Everyone needs heating in Victoria, BC, right?

I went to Seattle in June once and it was in the mid 50's to lower 60's and raining the whole time. Sorry, but that's too cool for me in the middle of the summer. I like boating and swimming activities, which favor hot climates. If you draw a line from the Bay Area east to D.C., I couldn't live anywhere north of there. Yes, it's a personal preference, I know.

bkluvsnola,, Seattle is alot wetter then Victoria,, and it gets more snow and is colder.
Victoria is more northern the Seattle, but we have better weather because of the jet stream and the water current( can't remember the name of it) that keeps us moderate.

Most Americans do not know much about Victoria, they will often site Seattle or Vancouver as being similar,,but they are far from it.

I know very little to nothing about Austin, just that its alot hotter then here, but hey most of my country has summers that are alot hotter then Victoria also, hotter summers, and colder winters!
As I said ,, I live in paradise, not too hot and not too cold.. just right!

travelgourmet, I am not saying the States is a particularily bad place to live. Amd for some citizens of the world, America is looks alot better then where they live .

My point is, most people from 1st world countries sincerely beleive their country is in fact the best place to live.


I guess the orginal question set this debate up a bit,, I mean, it says, &quot; if not why not&quot; ,, and I think it surprises some Americans to learn that not everyone sees the States as the greatest place to live like they do,, basically because many other countries are just as good, or in some cases maybe better(higher standards of living etc) places to live.



The question is loaded,, of course not everyone would move to the US if they could, so any response given as to the &quot; if not why not&quot; is going to bother or offend some people.

I would never ask if everyone wants to live in my country, that seems odd to me. Why would people want to leave their family, their friends, their jobs, to come here? Unless where they lived was really poor and horrible. I don't think there are many posters here that believe they live somewhere terrible. I do think this being a Europe travel forum you are going to find a fair amount of us who dream of retiring to Europeon locales,, for various reason, but even then, most of us site the desire to do so only part time.

Home is home.

So many mis-conceptions and so many pre-conceptions on both sides.

Going back to the original question, I wouldn't move, permanently, to the US. Lovely place to vist, but I wouldn't want to live there.

So, why not? I have spent the last few days reading this loooong thread all the way through, and I think that the straightforward answer is that it's not my culture. Not that mine is better or yours is better; just, they are different and I guess I don't want to be dragged out of the comfort zone which surrounds me.

Which takes us to the thorny question of &quot;in what way are they different&quot;, and that, I guess, is what you guys have been slugging it out over, over the last 2 months.

Now, bearing in mind that I have visited the US a grand total of twice- once in 1983, when I visited California, and last year when I visited Cape Cod, I have a limited amount of direct experience and a LOT of received wisdom, which I do not claim to be necessarily correct.

In that context, I found food I would expect to be neutral or saline,to be overprocessed and sweet. I was appalled by the lack of cheese I was prepared to call by the name. The fresh produce was, OTOH out of this world.

Mostly- and I absolutely do not mean my hosts, direct or indirect- I found the place VERY focussed on money or money's worth. People were overwhelmingly pleasant and welcoming.

I disliked intensely the ubiquitous Stars and Stripes- don't misunderstand- I'm not anti-American, I just find it bizarre that folk seem to need to display them on their private homes.

Notwithstanding comments before, one would have been struggling to understand that there was a world outside the US when watching the news or current affairs programmes.

I never felt at all threatened- except by the man from Homeland Security at Logan airport, but I imagine there are bits of Boston to be avoided- as there are here.

I do find the attitudes of the so-called &quot;moral majority&quot; to be pervasive, whether or not has the weight it thinks it has.

And I like living in a society with an advanced social security system. I hardly ever use that system, but I'd rather pay high taxes and have it, and know that those who need it have access to it, than have the US system. That doesn't mean either is &quot;better&quot; than the other. Just that my comfort zone is my status quo

I think it's sad, that there are some who can't see the answer &quot;no&quot; to the OP's question without assuming that the answerer is attacking the US. It's pretty clear that it's just what each of us is used to.

Commenting on some things that have been said, howeve:-

&quot;I would say that religious tolerance in the US (including tolerance of the outwardly religious) is at least as high in the US as in Europe. That may not be saying much, though&quot;

I think it's not that we preceive intolerance of different religions, except possibly, Islam, and that's a new thing; but that we see intolerance by the religious right of attaitudes not held BY the religious right- of whatever religion.

&quot;For many years, it seemed you couldn't be a UK politician without being skeptical of the EU.&quot;

Only if you were a Tory; and that's still true

&quot;It would seem to be difficult to be a French politician without railing against US dominance and calling for a French counter-weight&quot;

I think the French (oh, dear, another generalisation) hate the homogenisation which comes with globalisation and beleve US multi-nationals are responsible for a lot of that. They think they are mavericks on the world stage. Should get on well with McCain, then?

The minimum vacation you must be given in the UK is 24 days this year, stepping up to 28 next year (it's a transitional thing- it used to be 20, but the EU discovered some employers were making theire employees count the public holidays to that total, so it was made clear it was 28; but we were given 2 years to get to that)

&quot; My gosh, the whole Prince Charles divorce thing was suffused with questions about religion, questions completely separate from morality&quot;

Nonsense. There was the usual brouhaha about the King being the head of the CofE and not therefore being able to remarry in Church, but it had NOTHING to do with the Church and the populace has made it fairly clear we don't care a jot.

&quot;But my point is that I don't need the government to tell me how much vacation I need.&quot;

Neither do we. But I bet some of your Mexican fruit pickers wish they had our rights

&quot;all attempts to force creationism to be taught have failed&quot;

Just you wait till Mrs Palin is VP

&quot;I could do with fewer bogus claims for why someone isn't going to move&quot;

Just because they're based on misconceptions doesn't make the claims bogus. We had a middle class Aberdonian shot in Houston a couple of years ago. He was living there at the time, and he'd been out and got drunk and was walking through someone's garden (maybe) when they shot him because they thoughthe was a burglar. Most times I've told taht story, someone has said &quot;Texans! They're a whole noter country&quot;. Any road, it doesn't make Houston a dangerous place, but it doesn't make me want to live there.

&quot;I also believe that the pride American citizens have in their country is misconstrued by the Europeans and believed to be arrogance.&quot;

Yes, that's true. But not exactly without cause! Just read the more exreme views on this thread or its many predecessors.

&quot;In almost every other modern legal system, the value of that evidence in proving guilt is weighed when deciding whether to admit it. In other words, illegally obtained evidence is often admissible in European/Canadian/Australian courts,&quot;

Not here, it ain't. I'd hold our civil rights up against your any day of the week. Mind you, I think your system is very robust, and teh Labour Party has been trying to remove most of the rights of accused incrementally for the last 10 years.

&quot;We have murder, assaults, robberies, rapes, kidnapping and the list goes on and on.&quot;

Yup.

&quot;I think the thing that Europeans hate most about Americans is that the simplest Americans can have so much.&quot;

Nope. Wat we hate most is that some of you numpties believe the foregoing statement. I have lost count of the number of times some one on here has said, in terms &quot;you're just jealous because you don't live here&quot; I'm not. I don't want to live there, and I doubt I ever will. that doesn't make me an America hater or a bad person. Just get over the fact that we DON'T all want to be like you!!

&quot;why have church taxes?&quot;

we don't

&quot;Why link royalty and religion?&quot;

historical accident. Based on the divine right of kings, a mediaeval ficton. I bet it's gone in my lifetime.

Ireland , Netherlands, Luxembourg are not tax havens by any means; and they have essentially the same employment rights as the rest of the 27- because of the EU. I wouldn't call Switzerland a tax haven either, but I have no idea about it's employment rights.

Ah, another country heard from.

Sheila, I'm wondering in what way you found American society to be very focused on money during your stay- not doubting you, just wondering what form it took.