Tulips

Even though the Dutch government insists that the Dutch consititution will still be valid, the new European consititution says that it will override any local laws, in case there is a conflict.
I also disagree that all European citizens should be treated equally within the European Union; I do not agree that someone from, say, Poland, has the same rights in the Netherlands as a Dutch person.

I have already voted no (by post).

Joost

@Tulips: I wonder who told you that European decisions would overrule local decisions that, in fact, are under control of Brussels already?

Nevertheless, I heartilly agree with your vote

Joost

BTW: this morning, polls indicated there's a slow change in voting predictions. The "YES" seems to grow because of more yes-voters are anticipated to actually vote than before. Thank you, Mr. Bot

Tulips

In the brochure I have about the constitution, it says that the Treaty and the laws of the EU necessary to enforce the Treaty have priority over the national rights of the member states.

I fully agree with basic rights such as the right to be educated, the right to have access to social security and social assistance, the right to work. I just do not believe that all Europeans should be able to excercise those right in any country of the EU.

sheila

Flanner, you do have the ability on thses posts to make me spit!!.

Did you consider the possibility that a) the Länder system and b) the advanced state of democracy in Germany might mean that the German people trust their goverment to make their decisions without the need for a referendum. After all the treaty is about how the institutions of Europe are run, not about fundamentals.

France is moving inexorably towards a "yes" vote, I think; and gien the way that it has benefitted since 1960, it's no wonder. Shame we didn't join at the start and enjoy the same benefits.

I hold no brief for Chirac, but, honestly, "corrupt meglomaniac"? He's probably more constrained by Europe than any other institution of his government.

I too think there will be a "yes" vote in France but for reasons somewhat different to yours.

If there is a "no" vote, they'll have to start again. The bottom line is that what worked for 12, and just about worked for 15, doesn't work for 25, an we have to find new ways of conducting the business.

Of course, Giscard can't admit there's a plan B. If he did, where would bethe incentive to support plan A as better than the status quo. And i repeat, it's about how the institutions functio; not whether we, all 25 of us, stay in.


OTOH, can you just tell me where you stand so I can come and vote for you. The simplicity of your answers denote genius (or possibly that simpletons have simple ideas


Nothing in the EU, not this treaty nor any other leads to a single state. It's trite and, indeed, nonsense to sugest it does.

I agree that social security is the biggest issue facing Eurpoe but the scale of the problem varies from country to coutry, because, surprise surprise, we've all got different sytems.

Underhill, have a wild stab at where in Europe might be the best place to buy unpasteurised cheese?


The Constitutional Treay cedes no more power to Brussels than is there now. IT's garbage to suggest that Brussels will be able to overule the national legislatures


Patrick is much more polite than I in criticising the analysis put forward here.

People are simply lying to try to frighten us or, to be generous, repeating things someone with no brain has told them in the pub. THERE IS NO NEW EUROPEAN CONSTITUTION, so it can't override local laws, and more than the EU can at present- which, surely, insome circumstances it can.
Who printed your "brochure", Tulips? the "No" campaign?

What you oppose is the status quo, not anything the treaty will introduce.

Now, with the exception of Patrick, I fear I may be the only person here, who has actually READ the blessed thing. So bring it on, boys; I'm fit for you!!

Tulips

"IT's garbage to suggest that Brussels will be able to overule the national legislatures"


The official brochure I have is in Dutch, but in one of the answers to a frequently asked question about EU law and national law, it very clearly says;

'The Treaty and the rules of law of the EU necessary for the execution of this Treaty, have priority over the national law of the member states'

I think that that is pretty clear.

Tulips

And Sheila, this is the leaflet that was sent to me by the Dutch government along with my postal voting letter.

PatrickLondon

But that has always been the position - the key phrase is "necessary for the execution of this Treaty" - i.e., once the member states have agreed that something permitted by the Treaty can and should be done together, then the rules for doing it take precedence over pre-existing national laws on that topic. Otherwise you're in the position of saying "I'll join the club but ignore the rules I don't like". And we don't want to let the French get away with that, do we?!

Intrepid1

"I'll join the club but ignore the rules I don't like" is a phrase which is sounding quite familiar on the USA side of the Atlantic these days...sigh.

sheila

What Patrick said.

kswl

I listened with great interest to a piece on France's dilemma on NPR yesterday. In short, as it was presented to us (US radio audience), if France votes against the new constitution and is the only country to do so, it will become the black sheep of the EU and will lose a good deal of its current influence. According to the NPR piece, or at least what I got out of it, the changes in the constitution were less important to France than Turkey's entrance into the EU. Am I wrong about that?

But whatever the outcome of the vote, I LOVE the song about this predicament that is supposed to be the song of the moment in France: Le Mouton Noir!!!!

wren

Interesting article about the atmosphere right before the election in France:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...628272,00.html

wren

Today is the day...results should begin to come in here late in the afternoon. It doesn't look good for a yes vote according to the news.

sheila

Well, I certainly got the prediction wrong