I have posted this message on both the US and Europe boards, but since there are so many people who have been to so many different cities I figured this is a great place to post the question:<BR><BR>Who has worse traffic: North America or Europe? <BR><BR>After all, North American cities have notoriously poor public transportation options meaning that everyone HAS to drive a car to and from work (which is usually far away from where they live). But Europe has much greater density, meaning more people traveling on older roads.<BR><BR>So, where is the REALLY bad traffic?

Hi<BR><BR>European cities were built before cars were invented !<BR><BR>Many US cities have wider, better inner city road systems.<BR><BR>I don't think it is much different US v Europe.<BR><BR>Tokyo and Seoul are in a different league !<BR><BR>Peter<BR>

Oh, I don't know, Peter; I've been to San Francisco and the traffic's pretty awful.<BR><BR>On the other hand I've been to North Uist and you can go for hours withut seeing a car on the roads.<BR><BR>))<BR><BR><BR>Do you think the scope of this question may be marginally too wide to be of value??

US, without a doubt. Have you ever tried to drive from Kearney to Cheyenne during Rush Hour?

I think europeans are much more skillful drivers than we have in the US ..and they still have some respect for the laws..which I see less and less of here. <BR><BR>Narrow streets create the illusion of more traffic , but even in London they yield to the person with the right of way..something I hardly ever see in Florida..

It's no contest. Europe is far, far worse. The worst US city is better than best European city. Boston and SF are pleasures to drive in compared to Madrid and Rome. <BR><BR>* At least in the US there are street signs, something that European cities haven't bothered with. If they exist at all, they are little plaques on the sides of buildings and are completely invisible at night. <BR><BR>* US cities generally have 2-way streets, so you can turn around and go back the way you came if you get lost. European cities are mostly one-way, so you wander around aimlessly when lost, unable to backtrack and start again from a known point. <BR><BR>* Major US steets generally keep their names. Major European streets seem to change their names every few blocks.<BR><BR>* US streets are bigger than cow pathes. Many European streets are not.<BR><BR>* US highway exit signs usually (but not often as they should) give you information like "Downtown" or "Fred's Museum." European highways give you no information at all.<BR><BR>* US drivers have marginal respect for rules of he road. Europeans have none. <BR><BR>

While driving throughout southern France and northern and central Italy during the past 2 weeks, we found the autostrades to be efficient and safe. The European drivers actually respect the rules of the road on the highways (but not in the cities!). The fast cars drive in the left lane and the slower ones stay in the right. The worst thing about the autostrades is the tolls.<BR>We foolishly tried to drive into Florence -- big mistake! In the cities, cars make their own lanes, trying to squeeze in between other cars. And don't forget the scooters -- they zip around you like flies. We witnessed several bump-ups. People just look and keep on going. The most entertaining thing about the European roads is all the strange-looking cars, especially the tiny one and two-seaters.<BR>But, overall, we liked having a car instead of taking the trains.<BR>Pam<BR>

Bonjour Arty,<BR><BR>I have to answer the perfectly slanderous lies you've uttered about European drivers <BR><BR>"* At least in the US there are street signs, something that European cities haven't bothered with. If they exist at all, they are little plaques on the sides of buildings and are completely invisible at night. "<BR><BR>Of course there are street signs. It's just that you have to be used to find them in between those reading "caf&eacute;", "bar", "boulangerie", "PMU", ads, cryptic announcements ("trous en formation"), …. <BR><BR><BR>"* US cities generally have 2-way streets, so you can turn around and go back the way you came if you get lost. European cities are mostly one-way, so you wander around aimlessly when lost, unable to backtrack and start again from a known point." <BR><BR>Well, it's a problem only if you're not used to make a U-turn on only one lane, using the sidewalk if need be …<BR><BR>"* Major US steets generally keep their names. Major European streets seem to change their names every few blocks."<BR><BR>It's only natural. With all that history we accumulated over the centuries, there are not enough streets to name all the important figures of the past …<BR><BR>* US streets are bigger than cow pathes. Many European streets are not.<BR><BR>That's because your cows are noticeably bigger than ours …<BR><BR><BR>* US highway exit signs usually (but not often as they should) give you information like "Downtown" or "Fred's Museum." European highways give you no information at all.<BR><BR>That's an outright lie: In addition to the numerous signs on the freeway announcing the pretty mythical city of "Ausfahrt", you find lots of precise indications like "other destinations" and "all destinations" (in French: autres directions, toutes directions), very useful when you're lost in the center of an unknown city, like all tourist offices in France know very well (how else will you ensure tourists to spend a night in an otherwise uninteresting out of the way city ?).<BR><BR><BR>"* US drivers have marginal respect for rules of he road. Europeans have none." <BR><BR>Not true: we do respect all rules, provided there is some police force or a radar nearby !<BR><BR <BR>

The real question is who spends more time having to drive everywhere - even to get the most simple things like a quart of milk? Americans, of course. And no - Americans don't HAVE to drive a car to work. It is because Amercians have tolerated and foolishyly bought ($$$) poorly designed real estate developments. HIgh density mix use developements would allow Americans to spend less time in the car (imagine walking to the grocery store) and waste less gas.

Careful not to be comparing apples to oranges to chimpanzees to washing machines.<BR><BR>If by "traffic," you mean congestion and density in downtown urban areas, then Rome and some other Euro capitals "win." <BR><BR>If you mean density around and outside an urban area and the possibility of being stuck in gridlock even on a "highway," then you have to bring in NYC, WashDC and LA and San Fran. and maybe Chicago and Boston, of course, thanks to the Big Dig. One accident in any of these places and the delays can stretch into many hours. <BR><BR>If you mean difficulty in navigating because of poor signage and intricately engineered road intersections, Europe wins again but Boston gets dishonorable mention.<BR><BR>If you mean a higher percentage of travel by road rather than on mass transit, the USA "wins." For sheer gridlock of immense proportions that has nothing to do with city traffic, I nominate I-95 between WashDC and RichmondVA any summer Fri. or Sun. afternoon.<BR><BR>If you mean bad road manners, then that's something else again, and both the US and Europe have some major contenders.

We always travel by car in Europe and my vote is the US has worse traffic.<BR><BR>In those areas that are similarily congested, it seems the traffic flows better in Europe owing to Europeans following the rules of the road better than we do in the US. It seems we have way to many drivers that believe they own the road were in Europe they are taught and mostly follow the rule that you share the road.<BR><BR>Autobahn accident backups are the exception. Increased speed causes more spectacular accidents and w/only 2 lanes, the backups are really long. While driving south to Munich, I measured a northbound accident backup at 28km (17 miles). Ouch.<BR><BR><BR>

Mostly first world countries - i dont think there's much in it at all.

Obviously Arty hasn't driven in Boston lately, where on-ramps, lanes, off-ramps can be opened, closed, moved, redirected or just plain destroyed overnight due to the Big Dig. And there's little warning, notice or signage about it, just the "surprise" of having your old route decimated in a matter of minutes. This construction project has been going on so long and the changes so frequent that I don't even remember what it was like beforehand, but for sheer confusion on a daily basis, Boston takes it. And who knows if it'll get any better...we won't know until 2004-6 when it'll be "done." I haven't driven anywhere in Europe that even approaches this.

I had read somewhere that both Europe and Asia "adopted" the car. Their cities/villages were never meant to accomodate the car - they are more urban in nature (thus their horrendous traffic problems). America is still in many ways enamored with the farmland / pastoral / rural mystic. (Our forebearers came from crowded cities). Thomas Jefferson envisoned America as more rural farms and small towns. Unfortunately America still has this desire to develope / rape the land for profit - strip malls, cookies cutter suburban homes, 8 lane highways. I think one of the reason why NYers - and Chicagoans and SFers - have a strong sense of identity is because we live en masse and on top of each other. I know many Americans don't trust urban centers (our President for example) and have no desire to live there (and there are reasons not to). A wonderful midpoint between urban and suburban is Brooklyn. <BR><BR>One of the reasons I love Europe so much is its urbanity. There is nothing like the convenience and amount of choices one has in a city - instant gratification and competition for my dollars are great driving forces.

I’ve been driving in NYC for over 18 years. In fact I learned to drive navigating downtown and midtown, and the racetrack that is Lexington and 2nd Aves. That said I’ve been hesitant to tackle the streets of Paris, Rome or Athens. As hectic and chaotic NYC traffic is, I find European rules of urban navigation baffling. Whereas compared with New York driving I found Boston and Chicago a piece of cake. <BR><BR>I must agree with Mark on his assessment of the nature of European cities vs. US. I appreciate the “walkable” quality and highly developed public transport systems of European cities. This is also one of the reasons why I would never move from the NY – the ability not to HAVE to rely on a car. Of course I also appreciate the ability to own a car – only afforded to simple mortals by living outside of Manhattan. <BR><BR>Le Corbusier had seen what the automobile had done to the village-like Paris when he was young, and turned to the US as his planning playground. Ultimately he, and the likes of Robert Moses, are responsible for the highway culture that governs this country. <BR>

Does anybody know the average daytime speed of traffic in, say, NYC?<BR><BR>As a benchmark, I believe that London drivers average 8 mph, which is slower than horses managed 100 years ago.

5 m/ph trying to go crosstown on 38th street at 4:00PM.