I was reading a thread a couple of moments ago and in a fit of philosophical boredom, started thinking about how this issue embeds itself in thread after thread here.

The thread I was reading was a pretty straightforward one on finances in Paris, but soon launched itself into the issues of displays of wealth, fashion... the usual. This is it, if anyone wanted to chip in.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34688441

I didn't want to cause it to stray any further than it has, so decided to troll off on my own.

The issue I thought might be interesting to discuss in it's own right is: Which culture prevails when (in the wise words of Wes Fowler), one is a stranger in a strange land? Your own culture? Or do you try to mirror those of whom you visit?

I was reading the view of one European that since young Europeans typically do not spend above a certain level, that a young American should follow suit. At least, that's what I thought I read. Several others pointed out that these sorts of views often spill over into speaking patterns, fashion and the like.

Personally, I feel that this isn't really very much about nationality. Many people are basically centered around the culture they grew up with as the "normal" one, even if subconsciously. And while I feel more comfortable trying to adapt somewhat to what I *think* are the norms of where I'm going, I'm sure books and forums really can't be an accurate reflection of what I'm likely to experience. Even at home, 20 miles distance can change the local culture significantly (but perhaps not to the eyes of an outsider). And then too I think of how so many from Europe, for instance, don't think twice about carrying with them their own culture outside of their own home base. Been reading about Europeans going topless, for instance, in conservative countries like Egypt or Thailand, without that same sort of regard for local custom.

Too much analysis, I know, for a question without an answer, but I'm....

Bored @ home,
Cliff

you may be bored but it brings out an interesting topic, No one country lacks insensitive souls who travel to other places with customs and attitudes other than what they perceive as correct.

I've been thinking about some related points. Another recent thread had a post chastising a poster for wanting to buy a part from a gondola in Venice. The person objecting, who lives in Europe, said this was symptomatic of an American desire to collect "trophies", while the original poster said they were thinking more on the lines of a memento than a trophy.

My first reaction was to wonder why anyone would criticize a traveler for wanting a souvenir of a different culture. But then I wondered whether that is a trait more specific to the American culture than the European one. Is this something like "leave only footprints, take only photographs"?

On the other hand, I have an addiction to European home decorating magazines, which are filled with pictures of homes decorated with items brought back from all over the world.

OMG!! speaking of other cultures. I moments ago got a cnn breaking news that 18,000 were killed in the Pakistan earthquake and 41,000 injured.
This has been a horrible year for so many countries as well as for us.
We need to grasp the enormity of it all and reach out.

I believe, unfortunately, that the one thing all cultures have in common is their ethnocentric view.

If we travel, only to judge other cultures against our own, then we have lost a great opportunity to learn and grow, not only as individuals but as a society.

That's horrible, mimi. I haven't watched the news all day - sad to hear this news.

I thought maybe you had misread the numbers - - this is truly mind-numbing!

Will I seem insensitive if I change the subject - - as this earthquake news is too awful to fathom.

At the bottom of the same page -- a pure coincidence, I have to assume - - was this story listed under "World News".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051009/...agritourism_dc

Happier, and actually related to Europe travel, and at least vaguely related to the original question (though I am not complaining about the tangential remarks about the earthquake).

In a sad/fascinating way, I am watching some local news right now... and this earthquake story hasn't even come on yet, as far as I can tell. It's going to be trumped by football scores, I believe.

Hard to end this post, as I customarily do... with...

Best wishes,

Rex

That is truly horrible news Mimi. I'd heard early second hand reports of a quake, but had no idea the magnitude.

Incredible news, and it does put insignificant questions like the one I posed in perspective. Thanks for sharing that - I've been on CNN as you posted. There's a gentleman I occasionally correspond with who lives in Pakistan and I am so grateful he is not in that area of the country (he's in Quetta) but so sad for everyone affected. I hope all who can, reach out to help however they can.

The CNN website has an article that a spokesman for the President of Pakistan states they believe that 18,000 people have been killed but the number has not been confirmed. In any case the deaths, injuries and the horror are overwhelming.

Hello Clifton, not feeling terrible clever due to a terrible cold but just wanted to comment that I think most of us carry our culture background with us to other countries. Having said that I think it is wise and good for travellers to learn and know about the customs and manners in the countries they are travelling to. That, IMO, is a matter of respect. It also makes for a more enjoyable trip.

Regarding Clifton's start here, It's a cliche, but I think we have to, all of us, respect differences. I'm often one to be concerned about "Ugly American"-ism (being an American myself) but there are other times when I see equal arrogance across the globe, and I also don't think that the comment from the 'young European' on the thread Clifton cited, is a scientific survey of what European youth think that American youth should be spending on their hotels.

What anyone anywhere spends on anything to do with travel is nobody's d. business. That particular budget of $250 was blown way out of proportion, as if someone had announced they would be spending thousands each day, not that there's anything wrong with that either.

While we Americans, rightfully, try to develop an appreciation for the length, breadth, and depth of older cultures, it is also true that, for better or worse, jeans and Coke and McDonalds and Andy Warhol and Elvis Presley and Hollywood have had influences that long ago crossed the Atlantic and the Pacific. The money goes along with those influences.

If it WERE to be true that some percentage of Europeans think that some Americans spend too much while traveling in Europe, too d. bad. As long as people behave with respect, appreciation, and tact, to imply that it is insensitive to spend someone's idea of 'too much' money is just silly.
All the European airlines and tourism offices and travel agencies and hotels are eager to court tourists of all origins--it creates jobs and better economies. Only someone truly out of touch with today's world economy would object to someone else's spending habits. I think of that everytime I see Japanese tourists lined up at Louis Vuitton in Paris, and in Coach in New York--clearly thosse tourists daily budgets are also quite large.

As Thomas Friedman says, the world is now flat.

Elaine, your post got me thinking and chuckling. Younger friends that I have in Italy come here and they shop, shop and shop! One time one young gentleman purchased so much that when we got him to SFO he had to go to a special area of the airport, unpack his bags, buy boxes, pack them to have them shipped back to Italy. We had his purchases all over the floor, trying to cram them in the boxes. He had to spend a fortunate to get them home. I have the photos! I tried to tell him he was not going to be able to check all his belongings at the check in.

And Europeans come here and are able to shop because of the strong Euro compared to our US Dollar.

LoveItaly, elaine, I have to agree with what you've said to the degree that it seems reasonable that a certain amount of balance would be called for. Perhaps to allow for a little "self" to remain even when traveling, in the same way we'd want others to be themselves were we to encounter them in our hometowns.

I wouldn't expect a European or Japanese to be "more American" than they are, if I met them here on the streets of Memphis, but I might hope that they'd taken the time to learn what's not acceptable to the average American (such as pushing in line).

At the same time, I'd hope that I'd taken the trouble to learn how not to generally offend the citizens of my next destination. I feel they should be able reasonably expect that from me. And that's not to say that I won't encounter individuals with extraordinary expectations that I couldn't have forseen! But outside of that, I'd still prefer to be the mess that I am.

On the Europe board, there tends to be more of a focus on these things. Fitting obviously reaches it's limits, the further one goes from outside the norm. How many try to "fit in" while in Paris that would throw those concerns out the window if in the Far East or India or the Middle East? Awareness of how to display some respect for differences makes more sense to me, once it's looked at from a wider scope.

As to spending... there too, I have difficulty establishing what the line, if any, is. Is it awful to spend the same amount in, say Bangkok, where one of the best hotels (one is often ranked THE best) in the world costs $200 a night? Not my style, but it's less than many in Europe. And frankly, the ability to do so is hardly an "American" thing. Income is widely varied by location in the US. New Yorkers will make far more for the same work as someone here in Memphis does, and may or may not have more of it left over. Costs less to fly from NY to Europe, so therefore more left for shopping. Just seems like too many variables for a person to make a judgement about what they should or shouldn't be spending on a trip (or anything else).

On the other hand, I'd just been watching Bono on the late night show the other night. He was asked how he does with his success, still living in Ireland as he does.

He was talking about the "tall poppy" syndrome. My wife agreed that they have the "tall poppy" syndrome in Australia as well. He was saying how he liked the US in that when a person saw that big house on the hill, they may say to themselves "someday, I'm going to live in that house!" In Ireland, he was saying, the thought is more along the lines of "someday I'm going to get the B*****D that lives in that house". lol.

I may not agree with everything about the cultures I visit, but it's fascinating anyway, and it's very useful to be aware of the differences.

Clifton, I agree with your thoughts. And of course I am sure that we as travellers, even with the best intentions, sometimes do something that does not seem appropriate in another country.

I seldom watch TV but about once a month I turn on Oprah and I always smile to myself because she has a habit of sitting with her legs crossed and the bottom of one shoe facing the camera. In Italy showing the sole of your shoe to others is considered very rude. But how many Americans know that?

And I have to bit my lip with Italians, as they also don't seem to understand the concept of standing in line. I have to remind myself of that everytime I am there.

Hopefully all of us try our very best to "fit it" when travelling and hopefully most of us have made some effort to find out the customs of other countries before we visit them.

I do always feel bad when people seem so overly concerned about how to dress in another country. If one dresses like a gentleman or lady they will be just fine. If one just displays common courtesy and are well mannered any little breach of etiquette will normally be overlooked I believe.

And I thought you were talking about opium. LOL

Oh I love it when you get all philosophical Clifton!
I don't have much to say here, it has to sit and mull for a while.
But I did have one thought about this remark..
<i>I wouldn't expect a European or Japanese to be &quot;more American&quot; than they are, if I met them here on the streets of Memphis, but I might hope that they'd taken the time to learn what's not acceptable to the average American (such as pushing in line).</i>
But if you were in say, Germany, and standing in line, the Germans would be pushing and breaking in line too, how would that affect you? Would you want to bring your American sensibilities to that situation , in that country?

Every time I meet someone from another country, visiting ours ( the US) I am so happy that they bring some tiny bit of that place with them. They will meet people who might never ever think of going to , say, Japan..but after meeting or seeing or talking to a Japanese visitor, their curiousity about that far away place will be piqued and that might set them off on a trip someday.
Or they might just see how someone in a place that they will never visit, looks , behaves, thinks about something..and will have been changed a tiny bit by that.

That's true, LI. And I was trying to figure out how I'd fit in on that trip through Maramures. Don't think that would have worked out that well unless we'd traded in the car for a horse and cart and our clothes for the traditional Romanian garb. I don't think the locals would have looked on that more kindly than if we were just well behaved. Probably would have thought we were nuts, actually, as would have I.

LOL mimi... I'm not quite that bored.

I just hope I have better success respecting other cultures when I travel than James T. Kirk did following the prime directive.

First of all, americans should not set their european travel budget according to what they think the norm would be for a &quot;local&quot; in a similar age bracket. if you accept that they should, might i suggest the following:

We from europe should never take out travel insurance with medical cover whilst travelling in the US. Many americans do not have any medical insurance and we should have the same risk that an illness or accident could make us bankrupt. that's &quot;solidarity&quot; as described in the referenced post.

I think many of the american europhiles make far too much out of the &quot;ugly american&quot; syndrome. their radar for this is far too sensitive. they will give the non-american the benefit of the doubt over many things but a fellow american will get slammed. Europe is full of cultures that are very different from each other and many things that are acceptable in one place are rude in another. I suggest that the american europhile is much more bothered by &quot;typical&quot; american behaviour (whatever that is) than europeans are.

For example -

The person looking for a place to buy american style cream cheese in paris...most responses were to the effect that &quot;doesn't she know that you are not supposed to eat american cheese in france?&quot; would an italian looking for a similar delight from home get that same response? probably not.

and the american veteran asking about appropriate gifts to give during his trip to normandy. he was met with vile...assumptions that he was going to walk through the streets throwing around gifts whilst shouting &quot;we saved you&quot;.

Loud talking italians, greeks, etc are just &quot;charming&quot;...that's part of their lively character. but for americans, it is ugly and rude...according to many on this board.

conservative values amongst, for example, italian catholics or bavarians are just part of their fabric and characteristics that should be &quot;cherished&quot;. american christian conservatism on the other hand is seen as ignorant and repressed.

I can go on and on but i think you get the idea. in short, i think that the over-zealous attempt to route out any seeds of ugly americanism belies a true understanding of the world and makes the militant europhiles appear like giddy, euro-smitten american university students who have just returned from a semester in europe...they have seen and experienced just enough to be dangerous but hardly have a true understanding of europe or the rest of the world.