bloc88

I'm heading off to Britain in 2008 for a working holiday (up to two years) and have yet to pick a city. I've narrowed my choices down to Edinburgh, Manchester, Brighton and London, but could use a little advice from people that have actually been to these places.

A few random facts about myself: I'm from Canada, I'll be fresh out of college, I'm gay (I think), I'm into the alternative music scene, I'm not much of a clubber, I hate cold weather, I don't mind sharing a cramped apartment, and I'd like to avoid these "chavs" I'm hearing so much about

So what do you think?

owain

London's huge, and expensive. No matter what you want, you'll find it there, but there's no escaping the fact that it's not a cost-effective choice.

Brighton is fashionable, has a huge gay scene, and has a beach.

Manchester's a big city, with many many chavs...also has a long-established gay community around Canal Street. Loads of music.

Edinburgh's the only beautiful city out of the four. It's very much got a university town feel about it. Culturally, not as much going on as London or Manchester, except for the festival in August, when the place is swamped.

None are cold in Canadian terms, but all can be cold-and-damp. There's not enough difference between them weatherwise for this to be a major factor.

sheila

Based on your criteria- Brighton.

flanneruk

Most people on working holidays stay in London. It's large enough to have practically every community you could want (there are even Canadian pubs), and jobs in most areas are a lot easier to find - and generally much better paid - than elsewhere. It's got at least as much on, in terms of things to see and do, as all the rest of the UK put together: the eccentricity of our transport system makes it far, far easier to get to the rest of Britain from London than from anywhere else. And nowhere on earth is as well connected to the rest of the planet, if those quick weekends in Uzbekistan are part of your plans.

It's really only (!) accommodation that's a great deal pricier than outside if you organise things right (though Brighton and Edinburgh flat costs will probably shock most North Americans). Even transport can be surprisingly costly elsewhere if you're living in the wrong place

Personally, I'd say that two years in Britain without a solid slug living in London is missing a lot of the point. Equally, living in Britain - as most WHVers do - without a stint outside is missing the point too, and I'd commend your interest in looking outside.

The general consensus among most Britons would be that, of your three non-London choices, Edinburgh is the most insular. There's a thriving "student" community - but the city's burghers are really very self-contained and enclosed (and that's even by British standards!). Manchester is the most typical of Britain: most Britons live in or around towns like Manchester, and you'll get the most accurate understanding of how this country ticks, Brighton isn't just a gay enclave: it's got huge stretches of real poverty and a lot of families who've moved there because it's a mini-London with nicer countryside and (slightly) cheaper property prices. But it's certainly a quirky place, and while it's probanly the easiest one to have a good time in, it'll give you some slightly odd insights into British life (where else does the city museum have a section devoted to dirty weekends, for example?)

All of which said, to take the criteria you list:
- alternative music: roughly speaking, the bigger the town, the more of it. BUT if it really matters, getting in and out of London cheaply at all hours is easiest from Brighton (though not as easy or cheap as from Oxford), so you can access the London scene in Brighton. Not possible from the other two.
- cold weather. Non-issue for owain's reasons, though in my experience flats in Edinburgh are the dampest. Issue is making sure you know what the flat'll be like on a chilly wet day, as Victorian (or in Edinburgh's case, Georgian) jerry building and 150 years of lousy maintenance are equally common in all four
- cramped flats. Likelihood (99.999% certain) roughly the same in all four, unless you live miles outside
- gay. Dunno. Don't think there's a difference
- chavs. They just call them something else in Scotland (usually "English&quot

You really need to think hard about what your criteria really are. But why do you need to make this decision two years out anyway?. Why not get a Zoom flight, book a clutch of Megabus trips and see for yourself before deciding?

Dukey

I think as a per son who definitely knows he IS Gay that if you don't listen to Flanner's excellent advice, especially about going over ahead of time and checking the place out, you'd be doing yourself a disservice.

crazychick

It does seem strange that you need to pick now where you going to stay in 2008. I also think that if your here for 2 years can you not look at staying in more than one place.
London is a very central place, but it can be a very big and lonely city. So do not rush into anything take your time and make sure you know what it is you want from the place you choose to live. You do not say much about what work you maybe doing, and you have not really given away much in the way of your hobbies. These factors may help to decide where you live. If your an outdoor active type you may want to live within travelling distance of lakes mountians etc, if you like the Sea life you may want to live near the coast.
What about Cardiff, 2 hours on a train to London. Caost near by, Brecon Beacons National Park not far away.
You can fly to Edinburgh from Cardiff in just over an hour. Cardiff is a big University city so it is well geared up for students. The live muisc and arts scene is very good ,it has a varied choice. Yes there are alternative muisc nights, and it has a freindly gay scene check out club X as one place there are quite a few , and besides who cares what you are. As for Chavs all cities have these it is just a matter of finding out were they hang out in the city you choose and avoiding them places.
You need to start looking at websites on each of the cities your thinking about. I will give these 2 to start you off so you can see what Cardiff and wales has to offer.
http://www.visitcardiff.com/Capital-of-Wales.html
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldgui...s/europe/wales

PatrickLondon

You should be aware that there is a trend on the gay scene for some people to adopt "chav" style clothes. But if what you mean is that you don't want to meet aggression from the underclass, it's a matter of avoiding certain parts of any big town (and not so big ones, come to that).

(I think the Scottish slang word would be "neds", commonly identified with the grimier bits of Glasgow, but there are some pretty desperate estates in Edinburgh you'd be unlikely to come across).

Definitely an argument for trying places out and getting advice on the ground before you commit yourself to anything. You might also try out the messageboards at www.outintheuk.com: the audience might be a bit closer to your full range of concerns.

kaneda

A friend used to live in Brixton, a bad area of London. He moved to Brighton and shortly after confided in me that for the first time he had started carrying a knife with him. As well as gays, there is a hard drug culture in Bbrighton. Seaside places in the UK also collect people who are out of work and don't want to work, so often have a high crime rate from such layabouts.


Manchester is known for it's rain. I've been there several times and all but once, it was raining.


The further north you go in the UK, the colder it is. What is 6-8.C in London is snow in Edinburgh. Scotland is noticeably colder than England in winter.

I would say Kent (south east of London). Chatham, Gillingham or Gravesend. Prices are noticeably cheaper than London and all towns are within easy reach of London, the countryside with trains and a good bus service and good shopping centres.

waring

I would also suggest Brighton.

The hard drug culture is kind of restricted to the homeless and the council estates (projects if you like). I lived there for six years until 2003 and never encountered it myself, and I was partying and clubbing consistantly.

The area up the hill to the east of the Pavillion, Kemptown, also affectionately known as Camptown, is the hub of the gay community.

The beauty of Brighton for gays is their total integration and acceptance by all, even the local chavs.

Homophobia is restricted to visiting cockneys, who you are unlikely to meet other than on the Pier and the Meat-Market nightclubs on West Street that, if you have any class whatsoever, you are never likely to go to.

I once counted more restaurants in Brighton than in Soho, and there is a very bohemian feel to the place.

For the weather, Brighton has an odd micro-climate, receiving the warm air from the gulf stream and having a range of hills behind (The South Downs).

As such you can be surprised on leaving, an albeit chilly, Brighton two inches of snow on the other side of the hills.

Always slightly cooler than inland Britain in the summer. London can be stifling in the summer, hence the seasonal cockney migration to Brighton

Employment on the other hand may be an issue. Hotels, restaurants and financial services is about all there is on offer. Many many people work in London and live in Brighton.

waring

PS

I should add that there are two Universities, an Art College and a Technical College, so the student scene is enormous.

There are not a ton of small venues for bands, but enough, The University of Sussex has an active entertainment committee and put on some great bands (I saw the Cranberries in one of their smaller bars)

There is also the Brighton Festival, the largest street festival in Europe as well as Gay Pride every year which is enormous.

Fatboy Slim is a Brighton boy and used to put on a free show every summer. McCartney has a house there as well as half of the BBC.

The area to the north of Kemptown, Hannover, is known as the "Brown Rice Belt" as it is inhabited by crystal waving vegans in rainbow trousers and knitted Tibetan hats, very alternative.

The North Lanes has more hippies per square inch than anywhere else in the world.

bellini

As a Mancunian I'd suggest you come over (Zoom flights from Toronto- Manchester) and check the city out. It's lively with excellent theatres, restaurants, shopping and sporting venues (Commonwealth Games held in the city 2002). |It also has a thriving gay scene and clubs a plenty. Housing much cheaper than London and Edinburgh. Cheap flights to Europe from Manchester airport.

waring

I get impression that we are bidding for business.

Manchester is bleeding cold, and the only place in the world where someone has pulled a knife on me. I may be a nancy southerner, but that was uncalled for.

You can get from Brighton into central London quicker than from other parts of London. 50 minutes.

crazychick

Good grief if I was someone from out side of the UK reading this I would be frightened to come here. I slo think some are focusing too much on the Gay thing. They may not wnat to live a full on gay live, but they just need to know there is one. When they confirm if they are gay or not. It seems they are still undecided and people are about to push them off right into the pink capitol. Nothing wrong with it, but as stated by others be clear on what you wnat and go and pay a visit and see before you set your roots down. Nothing worse than getting tied down with a 6 , 9 or even 12 month lease and finding out you hate the place.

sheila

I would have recommended Edinburgh bur for the comment about the cold.

All the towns mentioned have anormal life and a gay scene, and you can be in or out of it as much as you like (actually I don't know about Manchester, but I do about the other three)

walkinaround

i agree with crazy...there are many other factors to consider besides gayness. maybe if you are feeling restrained and closeted where you are you might have the desire to get yourself to the gayest place in the country, but other than that, you should be ok in any of these places and you certainly won't feel like "the only gay in the village".

few places in england can match the feeling of brighton on a sunny saturday afternoon in july. however, a tuesday in november can be far more dismal feeling than many other places in england. it can feel very closed down. i'm not implying that the shops are restaurants are closed down, just that brighton feels like it is built for sun and fun and doesn't stand up well to gloomy weather and desertion. the ugly concrete features that are hardly noticable in the summer can seem very grey in the winter. i'm referring mostly to the city proper, there are many neighbourhoods around the city that could be anywhere in britain.

commuting daily to london from brighton at the peak times can cost you a small fortune....i don't mean that you would have to do this to get a job...just cautioning that this may not be viable as an option.

look into bristol...good music scene, many young people (both students and young professionals), lower cost of living, and most important of all for someone in your situation, a job market that is looking pretty good right now. there is a lot of interesting housing there as well.

otherwise, i would choose london unless you don't like huge cities.

what do you want to do for work?

m_kingdom2

If you don't like cold weather then focus on the south of England, not that it's tropical in comparison, just a fraction warmer.

You'll find yourself a job in any large city if you aren't fussy about what you'll be doing - I make the assumption that you're not looking for something considered "professional". So I've already discounted Edinburgh, and Manchester by their northern location. Brighton is fun, it has the sea, and everything else that you're after - London by the sea. Then you come to London which has everything you could dream of, but isn't cheap.

As you'll only be doing what is effectively temporary jobs then you can start off in one place and then wander, but for your first base I'd recommend you choose London.

audere_est_facere

Based on what you've said I'd also plump for brighton.

It does have a large gay scene, but it's not compulsory to be a part of it, and my gay friends are as happy in the mainstream venues as in the gay ones.

Also they tell me that although london has a large gay scence, bassed mainly in soho and Earls Ct, it can be quite unfriendly and impersonal.

Another advantage to brighton is that it offers reasonable stress free access to London - so you aren't restricting your employment opportunities.

Having said that I still maintain it's for people who can't make it in london and just want to sit on the beach selling big issues and drinking paint.

nixx

London has everything anyone could want but i would discount it as its too expensive to really enjoy yourself on the sort of wage you would probably be on

i cant think of any great reason to live in edinburgh so forget that as well (worth visiting for a long weekend and maybe for the festival if you can handle the crowds)

so that leaves Manchester and Brighton - both have a gay scene and the chavs are everywhere - my thoughts:
- brighton wins on weather (altho its not great anywhere in the UK) / manchester wins by far on music scene (a legendary city for anyone with a love of alt. music)
- manchester gives you the full city experience, brighton is a more like a coastal town
- easier to explore rest of UK from Manchester (lake district, scotland, wales etc) / brighton is within easy reach of London (altho Manchester is also only a 2 hour train ride away)
- manchester is more international with major airport making it easier to explore europe

personally i would go for Manchester - the whole city has been modernised in the past few years and I think its now far removed from the 'grim up north' picture they paint down south!

but it all depends what exactly your priorities are and make sure you visit before making your choice as others have recommended

Carolina

I also think Brighton would suit you best. The cities you are choosing between are all very different, I wonder how you came up with such a list. Also, apart from the cost of living, London is a great place to live because there is so much going on. Manchester has a lot going on, is considerably cheaper, but also considerably colder. Edinburgh is a great city but if you dislike the cold, Scotland is not the place to be.
Carolena

walkinaround

>>>>>>
- manchester is more international with major airport making it easier to explore europe
>>>>>

london gatwick is very close to brighton and a direct train journey. gatwick is a major airport that serves europe very well...in fact, it is better than heathrow when it comes to discount flights.

do consider all of the drawbacks (and pluses) of brighton but i disagree that it is inferior in the airport category.