I received a reply to my post yesterday about a planned ski trip to Wengen that this was not a good destination.... Can anyone recommend another site in Switzerland with great skiing and also a nice place to be for non-skiers (we don't need tons of attractions, just a pretty village, etc.)
Thanks!

Hi nico sara,

I have to say that (unusually) I disagree with Cicerone about Wengen. I've skied there once and love the town, the ambiance, and the trails. I don't think you can get a better introduction to Swiss skiing.

Some other places to research, though, might be Pontresina or Sils in the Engadin (near St. Moritz) or Brig or Zermatt in the Valais.

Good luck!

s

Don't know when you're going but the snow is starting to get slushy. Wengen might be too low for good skiing. I just came back from a 3-day ski weekend in Sedrun. By Sunday, the snow was quite soft.

Think about Saas Fee or Zermatt. I think the snow will be better there.

Oh yes, and Arosa.

We're actually not going until next year, around New Year's. Just doing some early planning....
Thanks!

Hi again,

Ummmm. May not have enough snow at New Year's around Wengen; that's pretty early. Usually good snow doesn't come until later in January and in February.

Your chances will be better in the Engadin, which has a higher altitude.

Good luck!

s

Well, I don't know if I want to be responsible for changing someone's entire vacation plans, but let me explain myself a bit and ask some questions. The Jungfrau valley is one of the most beautiful places in Switzerland, a country of truly awesomely beautiful places. I lived in Zurich, which is about a 2 hour drive from the valley, and probably went to the valley about 25 times, in all seasons. I really love it, and can and have spent hours walking and just gazing at the mountains. I sometimes would drive out just for a day, which tells you something of how much I loved this valley. If you love outdoor activities and mountains you really cannot go wrong here.

However, as for a place for skiing, I think it has drawbacks, and in winter if you have people with you who are not skiers and who are not outdoor people, I also think it has some major drawbacks. You don't say how long your trip is and whether your non-skiing friends have any interest in outdoor activities. If you are just going for 2-3 days, and if you friends like to do winter walks, want to take the Jungfrau train to the top of the mountain, are happy to look at scenery and maybe try some cross country skiing, sledding, etc or can just sit by a fire in the hotel with a book if you get a heavy snowfall, then I think that Wengen is a great place. However, if you are going for a week or 10 days, and/or if your friends need a place with shops, upscale gourmet restaurants, coffee bars, museums, a spa with massage services, etc., cobblestone streets and quaint village buildings, then I think Wengen will not be a good place for them. Wengen, Grindlewald, Murren are all VERY small towns, literally one street each. There are maybe 10 restaurants in Grindlewald, a few less in Wengen and about 5 in Murren. Most of these restaurants are very casual and feature Swiss food, no real gourmet experiences here, perfectly good food, but no Michelin stars. There are 2-3 sporting good shops, 2-3 watch shops and 2-3 souvenir shops in Grindlewald, a few of the same in Wengen, and really about 3 shops and a grocery store in Murren. They are nice towns, but not charming in the cobblestone street, ancient church, bow-window house kind of way you will find in other Swiss towns. (These are kind of thin on the ground in ski towns, albeit Zermatt has some interesting architecture.)

As a place to ski, the valley has its fans, I am just not one of them, for the reasons noted in my original post. You probably will get people who will post of positive experiences of skiing, and you should consider them. You might also look at websites for skiers, rather than travellers, who will rate Wengen as a ski destination. There are not a lot of skiers on this board. (I just got back from a week's skiing at Whistler, and just can't even think of skiing in Wengen although the fondue was of course better . . .)

Places with larger towns which would offer more to non-skiers would be Zermatt, Davos/Klosters, Verbier, St Mortiz/Celerina/Pontresina (all in the Engadine), and Gstaad. A place like Gstaad may work well for you, as the town is larger, quite charming, offers a lot of good restaurants and upscale shopping, spas, etc. and you could get take a day trip to the Jungfrau valley by train in 2 hours (or by car in a bit less). Skiing is very good as well. It is probably a bit more expensive hotel-wise than other places, but really in Switzerland it is all kind of relative because it is very expensive to begin with. Verbier has really excellent skiing, esp for intermediates, but is not really a charming town, although it does have a lot of good restaurants and some shopping (and lots of celebs). I love Zermatt as the skiing is excellent, the town is actually pretty, there are lots of shops and restaurants, lots of activities for non-skiers and of course there is the Matterhorn. Saas Fee is also good, but there is not quite as much for non-skiers; however, if you friends love food, then consider staying at the Fletschhorn Hotel and they probably won't care about any other activities, and they could take cooking courses. (Take a look at www.fletschhorn.ch/english/hotel/hotel.html). I think Davos/Klosters is excellent skiing, the towns offer a lot to non-skiers, esp some good cross country, horse drawn sleigh rides, shopping (and the odd chance to see Prince Charles), and to go to Guarda (see below). They could also go to St Mortiz for the day, which is a lovely train ride. There is also a fantastic sled run of 12 miles at Bernun nearby to Davos (this could be done from St Mortiz as well.) The St. Mortiz/Celerina/Pontresina aera offers great skiing, a beatufil valley with walks and cross country (polo on the lake), the town of St Mortiz with shops and restaurants, the chance to take the Bernina Express (see below) and to go to stunning villages in the Engadine like Guarda (1 hour from St Mortiz), which is IMO the most beautiful village in Switzerland. Guarda is the cobble stone street, ancient church kind of place you may be looking for. Other lovely villages (some with castles) in the valley are Tarasp and Scuol, also an easy train ride from the St Mortiz area.

Arosa, mentioned above, is also a small town so may have the same problems as Wengen. It is however, about 30 minutes by train from Chur, which has a lovely old town that might interest your friends. Your friends could also take the Bernina Express train for a day from here (as they could from the St Mortiz and Davos/Klosters area) which IMO is the best of the scenic trains in Switzerland. Take a look at rhb.ch. I have only skied Arosa as a ski over from Davos, but thought it was good.

I don't know how long your trip is, but you could consider going for 2 days or so to the Jungfrau valley to see it, and then going somewhere else for more active skiing. I have done this with friends and it has worked well depending on what location you choose for skiing, i.e. it works well for Gstaad and Zermatt/Saas Fee, not so well for the Engadine areas. (Its 7 hours by train, probably more than you want.) Might be workable for Davos if you have a car.

Note that Christmas/New Years is the most popular time in the ski areas, so it is good you are planning ahead. You may find minimum stays of 7-10 nights are required, the hotels may lift these restrictions as you get closer to the dates, just start checking now. Also December is historically a very very cold month, so bring lots of layers, warm clothes and good warm sportswear.

Cicerone--- your reply is most generous and very helpful to many of us. I was most interested in your reference to Whistler, where we normally ski. Difficult to compare with Switzerland, no? But for the OP, I wonder if one should also mention Engelberg as a good place for both skiers and non-skiers. I haven't been there for years, but I have fond memories.

I only skied Engleberg once, but my feeling is that the town, while prettier than most ski towns, is too small for non-skiers and does not offer much in the way of non-skiing activities, unless they are interested in outdoor activities. Nico-sara does not state if the non-skiers in her group are interested in outdoor activities. If so, then she may want to stick with Wengen which is very beautiful and seems to be her first choice. If you think Engleberg offers more, give some more info to Nico-sara on it. Of course, a day trip to Lucerne is very possible from there, but Lucerne is kind of low on my list of places to go in Switzerland.

Last week was my first trip to Whistler and I really loved it, and will certainly go back Let's face it, the skiing in the US West (and I can now say Canadian West) is just better than Europe, better and longer runs, better lift systems, more integrated trail systems and lifts. However, the Europeans have the restaurants and après-ski stuff much better worked out, there is nothing like Chez Vrony in Whistler. I loved the waffles at the Crystal Hut but they don't compare to fondue outdoors on the terrace at Chez Vrony in the sun with a bottle of white wine with the Matterhorn as a backdrop or lunch on the Kublis run in Davos. . . .

Cicerone---your impressions of Whistler are interesting. Our first few times there (8-10 years ago) we stayed at a B & B, the Swiss Chalet. I asked the proprietors, Willi and Louise, why they left Switzerland for Whistler. They responded---because the skiing is so much better here! But you're so right---US/Candadian ski resorts don't have the same amenities in the way of good food and wine at lunch. It's just a different experience.

I'm afraid I can't help nico sara with skiing or other oportunities at Engelberg; it was a long time ago and my first time on skis. I just remember that everyone else (the good skiers) raved about the glacier run back to town at the end of the day, and the town itself was very nice.

Thank you Cicerone for sharing with us, great reference for our future ski trips. Likewise I have limited skiing experience in Nth America, notably Whistler and have favoured European ski experience over the years. Can't beat having late lunch at a mid-mountain restaurant, dig into a home made goulash or rosti and finish off with an expresso whilst looking at the Matterhorn or Mont Blanc!

nico_sara, I was in Verbier in early Feb this year. Unfortunately the snow condition was very ordinary but I can imagine great skiing to be had when it really dumps. Verbier is not your typical Swiss alpine village. Comparatively I would say it is not very pretty - no cobble stone streets at all! And too many English speaking tourists which undermine the atmosphere and therefore the total European experience.

A couple of years ago I was in St Moritz. If you are an expert skier, don't go there. The piste are easy and I only consider myself an intermediate skier and found the majority of the piste quite easy and unchallenging.

However, great apres-ski town and great shopping for non-skiers. Some really expensive and monumental hotels there - Hotel Klum, Bardrutt Palace, Survretta House just to name a few. Naturally all these come at a price. But isn't skiing in Switzerland expensive or skiing is expensive anyway no matter where you go?! Then again, you only live once!

I will be skiing in Zermatt in mid-Feb 2007 and will be waxing my skis very soon!

Enjoy!

I'm not a skier, but I love to visit Switzerland in the winter - particularly for hiking. All the villages mentioned above have groomed hiking trails in the winter, so if the non skiers in your group are up for some walking, they're in for a treat.

Don't forget about sledding - I have fond memories of a trip to Murren where my husband and I spent hours sledding down to Gimmelwald - it was a complete blast and now we can't visit Switzerland in the winter without checking out the sledding.

Regarding Engelberg -

I've visited Engleberg twice during the winter season and as a non skier I found plenty to do. It might be hard to fill a a full week there, but the non skiers would no doubt enjoy the Titlis revolving gondola and the Brunni cable car. There are winter walks that lead off from these as well.

If hanging around a ski village isn't what the non skiers have in mind, Luzern is only a 45 minute train ride from Engleberg. I'm not as fond of Luzern as many posters here, but it is a city, and therefore offers plenty to do.

Cicerone,
Thank you so much for all the wonderful information! To answer you questions, we plan to go for a week. We have a couple of avid skiers in our group, but will also have a 1-year-old, a 3-year-old, a pregnant woman, and a 90-year-old, none of whom will be skiing obviously. We're hoping to relax and don't need exciting activites at every moment to keep busy. That said, we want to make sure that people don't get bored. I will review your suggestions in more detail.... please let me know if you have any specific recommendations based on our situation.
Thanks!!

Cicerone,
One more follow-up criterion which I only just became aware of: We need a place which is fairly low altitude (no more than 1500 meters or so) due to health reasons. Sorry for the additional complication. Do any of your recommendations meet this requirement?
Thanks again!

I think there are several that would work, but Wengen would not as it is at about 1800 meters. I am assuming that if the village where you stay is at 1500 meters, then that would be OK for the person with the health issue. Base elevations for the villages of the places mentioned so far are as follows, these are taken from an old atlas I have, you might be able to find info on the web as well to double check:

Engelberg 1050 meters
Gstaad 1100 meters
Grindlewald 1200 meters
Verbier 1500 meters
Davos 1560 meters

Murren 1650 meters
St Mortiz 1750
Zermatt 1760 meters
Arosa 1800 meters
Saas Fee 1800
Wengen 1800 meters
Klosters 1860 meters

Grindlewald is going to have the same issues, IMO as Wengen, it is quite small and has a limited amount to do, and is IMO not as sunny or charming as Wengen and the view of the mountains is not as good, nor are the winter walks as good. The biggest drawback is that as Grindlewald is at the bottom of the valley, getting up to the higher elevations ski areas from Grindlewald is, IMO, a real pain and can take over an hour or even more if it is crowded (which it will be at Christmas). However, Grindlewald does have its fans on this board, even with skiers on this board. I agree with the above post that in December and in the lower elevation places, you may run into a problem with their being less snow, it simply has not had a chance to build up as much. You may be lucky and have a really good snowfall, it will just be a matter of how much snow has fallen in the previous few weeks prior to your arrival.

I have not skied Engleberg enough to comment on what effect the low elevation would have on snow cover in December. Gstaad will probably have similar issues with snow cover, but there is a lot to do in the town and valley so this may not be as much of an issue. I think at Verbier and Davos you would be OK in December as they are at the highest end of your permitted elevation.

Thank you! It seems to be between Grindelwald and Gstaad. Could you tell me what the advantages to Gstaad would be, both in terms of skiing and other activities?

Hi nico sara,

Uh oh, now you've gone and done it! I absolutely love Gstaad and could write about it forever. I love the soft, green, rolling hills of the area, the great restaurants, great shopping, and the myriad of hiking & biking trails it offers. It's a lovely place.

Here are links to my "reviews" (w/photos) of Saanen & Gstaad to help tempt you:

Saanen
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...wiss_Alps.html

Gstaad
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...wiss_Alps.html

For more information, take a look at www.gstaad.ch and www.chateau-doex.ch. I haven't skied there yet, but hope to do so in Jan 07.

Have fun!

s

Correction to Cicerone: Wengen is at 1274 m.

An additional area to look at is Scuol, about 60 km north of St. Moritz, at an elevation of 1250 m and with its own skiing area. Very nice. See www.scuol.ch

Well, if Ingo is correct that Wengen is at 1200 meters, then I would certainly choose Wengen over Grindelwald. However, as I have mentioned, both are very small towns and I am afraid that acitivities for a week for non-skiers would be limited. If the non-skiers are happy to sit with a book and take walks and admire the scenery, then perhpas Wengen would work, it is nicer than Grindelwald IMO and has better lift access, but overall as a place to ski I am not sure it is the greatest place to ski for a whole week. (Obviously Nico_sara please confirm the alitude as this is a major issue for you.)

Gstaad is much larger than Grindelwald or Wengen so will offer more in terms of restaurants and shopping. It has a small but very charming downtown with cobblestone streets and the wooden slope-roofed typically "Swiss" buildings you think of when you think of Switzerland, and IMO is more charming than Grindelwald or Wengen (although Wengen has more charm than Grindelwald, IMO and the valley and mountain views are better). It is set in a very large wide valley surrounded by Alps and has very beautiful views complete with a castle set dramatically on a nearby hill, and while I must say it does not quite have the oomph! of the Jungfrau views of Grindelwald or Wengen; it it very beautiful indeed and does have other things that make up for it. (You can also go to the Jungfrau for the day as I have mentioned, to get your Jungfrau fix.)

For skiers, you will find a lot for intermediates, not so much for experts, but if you hire a guide and go off-piste then experts will find more options. For beginners there are a number of good trails and beginners slopes. You have to take a train or bus to most lifts, there is not a lot of ski in or ski out from hotels or apartments, but this is pretty common in Switzerland generally. I find access to lifts here much better than in Grindelwald or Wengen, others may disagree. I also find the trails wider and sunnier as the valley is much wider and gets more sun and the sun does not go behind the Alps so early in the day as it does in the narrow Jungfrau valley, esp in Grindelwald (an issue in December when days are short).

For non-skiers, you will find more activities in the valley as it is much wider and larger than the quite narrow valley of the Jungfrau. It is also sunnier as a result, which is better for outdoor activities, IMO. Cross country skiing, ice skating, walking(over flat ground, hard to find in Switzerland), snow shoeing, horseback riding, horse drawn sleigh rides are all much more easily availible. (I don't' believe there is any riding or sleigh rides in the Grindelwald area, and I only know of one cross country track in Grindelwald which is over in the Lauterbrunnen valley.) As it is quite an upscale resort, the shopping is quite upscale as well, there are lots of little boutiques and speciality stores, and while most of it very pricey, it is kind of fun to at least look. (Cartier and Louis Vuiton, among others, have shops here, which for a village of 7,000 people I always found pretty amazing and tells you someting about the kinds of visitors and residents they have). The Palace Hotel has a very nice indoor shopping arcade as well. People watching on the main street is a fun activitiy, to see all the myriad types of furs, skiwear and sunglasses. . .

The restaurants will offer more variety and a bit more quality than Grindelwald or Wengen, although in Switzerland it is hard to find a bad meal so I don't want to denigrate the food in Grindelwald or Wengen, you just may find more French and other lighter fare in Gstaad. There are also more variety of hotels, and frankly better hotels. I find the hotels in Grindelwald, even the 5 stars, to be quite old and in need of a redo. The resort hotels in Gstaad are true resort hotels with nice rooms, large indoor pools, spas (which you can use if you aren't a guest) and all the amenities, which non-skiers may appreciate as they need more than a bed at night to collapse into. (Wengen has a few very good hotels, esp the Caprice, but it is not a resort hotel with a pool or spa, the Beausite Park in Wengen would fit this category.)

The lovely village of Chateau D'ouex is only about 15 minutes away by train, and has a good museum and is a charming village as well for a morning or afternoon trip. (You can also go to Rougemont, about 10 minutes from Gstaad which has a pretty church, but is more famous for the finishing school where Lady Diana spent a year when she was about 17.)

From either Grindelwald/Wengen or Gstaad you can make a day trip to Thun or Spiez (1.5 and 1 hour, respectively from each by train) which have castles and Thun has a very nice old town area. These are on huge lakes and Thun especially offers spectacular Alp views. There won't be ferries running on the lakes, but they still are worth a trip if non-skiing friends need a more larger city fix. Also, a trip to Berne from either town is also possible, that has a much larger and grander old town and some lovely buildings. It is about 2 hours by train, about 1.5 hours by car (about an hour from Grindelwald), so is more of a commitment for a day trip.

With a week and a large group, you might consider renting a house or apartment. I don't have any leads for you on this for those towns, but if you post a question here, people could give suggestions I know people on this board have rented in Grindelwald, and I am sure you could get leads for Gstaad as well. If you give a hotel budget, I can make some reccos in both Grindelwald and Gstaad.

If you are considering Gstaad, you can just as easily fly into Geneva as into Zurich, and in some ways, Geneva would be better as most trains require only 1 change, as opposed to 2-4 changes from Zurich. The journey by train to Gstaad from either Geneva airport or Zurich airport would take about 3 hours, although some trains from Zurich airport take 3.5 hours. For Grindelwald or Wengen, it makes more sense to fly into Zurich, the trip takes 3 hours and requires 1-4 changes depending on the train you take. For schedules, go to rail.ch, put in Zurich airport or Geneva airport as the starting point. You would have to also look at departure times for the return flight and see what train times work best from what city, it may be that you will need to overnight in Zurich or Geneva if you have an early morning departure.

If you are using frequent flyer miles, you may find that you have to fly into and out of Zurich (esp for American Airlines).You might want to start looking at airfares to see if this makes a difference to you, esp if you are thinking of using frequent flyer miles. Also, you may find that you can get cheap flights into Basel or Berne via a connection in London or Frankfurt on something like Ryan Air or Germanwings. You have to weigh up whether changing planes with kids and a big group is worth the hassle of the cheaper fare. Berne is quite convenient for Grindelwald, Wengen and Gstaad, the trip by train is about an hour shorter than from Zurich or Geneva. By train from Basel airport to Grindelwald, Wengen and Gstaad is about the same time as from Zurich (3 hours, with 2-3 changes). However, both Berne and Basel are a little bit of a pain as there is no train station in either airport and so you have to take a taxi or bus to the train stations.

For the most part, you do not want or need a car. Grindelwald, Wengen and Gstaad are car-free (at least the centers of Grindelwald and Gstaad are). Car rental is not cheap, gas is expensive (over US$6 a gallon at this point), parking is normally not included in hotel rates and many hotels do not even offer it. At holiday time in ski resorts you will find public lots completely full, and you may have to reserve space in advance. That being said, IF you go to Gstaad, a car would be a nice plus to see the valley which is quite large, and to be able to get to the Jungfrau much more quickly than by train for a day trip (less than 1.5 hours by car versus more than 2 by train with several changes), however, you might be able to rent for a day or two rather than the whole week if you did not want to commit to a car for that length of time. You might want to look into this, not sure if there is a car rental office in Gstaad.

While I would also prefer Gstaad (and especially the surrounding villages) to of Grindelwald/Wengen for ambience I must say that Grindelwald is much larger than Gstaad. Also, please keep in mind that the skiing around Grindelwald/Wengen is more snow reliable (just alone due to elevation).