Sheila

David, I'm not a Nationalist,in the politial sense, but answer your question for me, please. <BR> <BR>If it's what the Basques and the Scots want, why shouldn't Scotland and the Basque region become independent? <BR>

kate

I agree with you Sheila. I'm English, so I hope everyone doesn't believe that David West speaks for the majority. <BR> <BR>If Scotland wants independence, then I think they are entitled to it. Purely selfishly I think it would be a shame – I adore the variety of nationalities in Britain and in an age when Europe is coming closer together I would regret driving a wedge between us – but from an historical perspective I can understand it. <BR> <BR>With the question of the euro, David West is a Tory - a party who are clearly on the margins of political opinion these days. <BR> <BR>I am in favour in joining the euro at the right time – I think our government is playing it correctly in this sense. We need to resolve issues as to where the financial centre would be - Germany clearly wants Frankfurt but we would not want London to lose its dominance in this area. <BR> <BR>But ultimately, one stable currency across Europe can only be a benefit. Fluctuations in currency strengths cause endless problems for businesses trading in Europe (and beyond). My father is a major exporter in sports goods all round the world and his business regularly suffers when the pound is strong. It makes building and maintaining strong trading relationships very difficult. <BR> <BR>There is a tendancy amongst certain english people to panic about european influence - signs of Britain being a diminishing world power. But let's be sensible guys - in the face of major economic forces from the US and the Far East we can only hold our own if we pull together to form one major (european) economic force.

sarah

Sorry to make a comment that isn't really related to the original question-but I had to say something!!! <BR>So many of the positive changes that have occured in the UK in recent years have been due to our EEC membership. Legislation that has been enforced surrounding our working hours and wages have proved to benefit low earners around the country. This possibly has meant nothing to people like David West who is obviously such an important person he is able to dismiss something like 'socialism' as being a passing phase! However for millions of people who were living on the breadline during Thatcherism in the eighties the combination of a Labour government and our progression into Europe has bought a better life!

kate

I agree Sarah <BR> <BR>You can hardly take someone seriously who still uses the term "lefties" - he sounds like my grandad

Carla

Wow! <BR> <BR>Thank you all very much. <BR>I didn't realize it was so complicated, and am now following this with great interest.

Roger

Great arguments all round. Two bones to pic with Kate. First, though the Tory flag is certainly in tatters, 30 % of the electorate still voted for them in the last election, a substantial body of electoral opinion. Second, Winston Churchill was very much on the outside with regards to British political opinion in the 1930s. He was proven right on most of his stands of the times (but for abdication of Edward VIII) while Stanley Baldwin, Neville Chamberlain, Lord Halifax and most of the rest of political society were proven wrong.

John

Well I just hope Clydesdale Bank will be able to issue Scottish Euros. I've always felt that Scotland having its own currency, accepted at par in most places in the UK, was an important cultural touchstone. Why not Basque or Breton Euros? It would help retain local pride while still aiding trade? Plus think of the art design possibilities...

Sheila

Pah, John! You're not taking this seriously and we all know that the Euro is a VERY serious topic;-) <BR> <BR>As to Roger, Yes, 30% DID vote Tory and a substantial minority of them are pro Europe. Your point is? <BR>Winston Churchill (whose relevance here I'm struggling to grasp)was very much an internationalist. He was also a Liberal MP. Your point is?

Lou

As an American, I find this thread very fascinating. I figured that the Germans would attempt to control the EU, it wouldn't work out, Germany would leave the EU, the EU would fall apart, and everything would eventually be back to the good old days. I'm not biased against Germans, since they manufacture such quality automobiles, but I am realistic. Why would Germany and Great Britain want to share the wealth with the rest of Europe. We would love the common currency in most of Europe, but many Americans still don't believe it will work. Free trade agreements are one thing. However, even without the historic traditions that Europeans have, we would never join Mexico and Canada in the creation of Americos, or any other currency. We love our greenbacks as much as the counterfeiters do. Sorry, just rambling a little...

Packerman

I knew this question would spur some good viewpoints. I'm an American and the UK should never never never adopt the Euro. It would be very foolish.

Sheila

Packerman <BR> <BR>Why?

John

Sheila, of course my comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely. What were the driving forces behind making the Euro a uniform currency? As I recall, it had to do mainly with the need to stabilize exchange rates, ease monetary transfers to make them compatible with free trade, link the various central banks’ monetary policies so that the big discrepancies between the Mark and the Peseta and the Pound would not continue to lead to regional economic hot or cold spots, and to provide a psychological break from the past. These points may all be well and good, but plainly the UK is more attached to sterling than Italy is to the Lira, and the debate focuses heavily on the last point, that of national identity, and on the psychology of it all. <BR> <BR>So what would be so wrong about moving to a common unit of currency, offering all the above benefits, but with national banknotes (maybe not coins, but who will miss the 50p piece?) reflecting the different history, cultures, and identities of the constituent members? The designs of the common Euro notes look precisely for what they are, the product of a committee in Dublin 5 years ago. Having a “common” European theme of Rococo architecture means what precisely in Scotland? Or Greece? Better the pictures of Greek Thompson or Logie Baird or R. Bruce, methinks, but make the currency interchangeable (and make the note sizes and colors the same so blind folks or visitors won’t get mixed up.) And what if the term “Euro” were made the official currency of Britain but then Threadneedle Street officially pegged the pound at £1 = €1, then printed both on the currency? When you travel to Barcelona or Brindisi you’d be able to spend the money in your purse without getting ripped off, but people from Porto to Piraeus would be able to enjoy one another’s currency. I think it would be fun to find Portuguese or Danish Euros in my wallet, with Lord knows what faces or pictures on them, alongside pictures of Burns or Mrs. Q. National pride would be served, along with monetary equality. <BR> <BR>As far as the US dollar being the general unit of currency in North America, it already is. <BR>

Roger

My point, Sheila, is that being temporarily politically popular or unpopular is irrelevant to being wise or correct. In the 1930s, Churchill was right and Baldwin, Chamberlain, Halifax and the rest were wrong with regards to Adolf Hitler. Kate seems to think that if you have the political numbers, you are right. Tony Blair has the numbers but he is almost never right in his political point-of-view. On the other hand, Mr. David West seems to be most wise.

david west

ooo er, I seem to have started a bit of a row. Firstly I was asked to explain the anti case. This I did as best I can, it is necessarily concise as this isn't an essay. To take up the points directly addressed at me: <BR> <BR>Firstly I couldn't care less if Scotland becomes a self governing socialist hell hole (although I will feel sorry for the half of my family who live there). It will reduce my taxes on handouts to them. The point I was trying to make is that, paradoxically, centralisation of power through the EU actually makes the Nation State rather more willing to give up the power that it has. This was always a strong Scottish Nationalist arguement ie well we'll all still be in the EU so where's the harm in independence? I have no view either way. <BR> <BR>Secondly yes I am a tory, along with 30% of all voters. Quite proud of it actually (see my comments on the peopel who are always wrong). <BR> <BR>Thirdly: The statement that a stable pan european currency would be good for Europe is at best debatable. However it is my contention that Euro is inherently unstable. (To put this in an american context it would be as if EXACTLY the same economic policies were folowed at all times through NAFTA). Only time will tell the wiser. <BR> <BR>Thatcherism in my opinion was the best thing to ever happen to this country (the sound you can now hear is liberals rending their garments). Maybe you don't agree, but the labour prime minister appears to think I may be onto something (he's not a fan of socialism either) <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

kate

No David, that sound you can hear is laughing...

Derek

If it wasn't for Mrs. Thatcher, Kate, Britain would be some East German-looking rathole with a supermajority of aimless, decadent people with their hands stretched out looking for alms. By the late seventies, Britain was sliding fast to being Romania on the North Sea. Remember when the unions ground Britain to a halt about 1973-74? Remember 10 % + inflation? High unemployment? High taxes? Top rates of 95 % (remember George Harrison's song TAXMAN?)? The communist menace on the loose? Maggie Thatcher was great.

Peter

Huzzah Iain Duncan Smith!!!!!!!!!!!!! Savior of Britain. If the UK is wise enough.

joegormley

Derek, wasn't Kenneth Clarke a functionary in Ted Heath's glorious reign in the early 70s? The guy has leader written all over his face.

AnnaC

Er Derek, my memory of the eighties isn't exactly clear on all political points (they were my teenage years and things like boys and exams seemed so much more important at the time), but didn't we experience 10%+ inflation and high unemployment during Thatcher's reign? I seem to remember the communist menace was still very strong with much talk of nuclear war - it was the Russians who put an end to that, not Thatcher. <BR> <BR>Thatcher did a lot of damage to Britain. I've no doubt she also did some good, too, but I confess I struggle to see what. <BR> <BR>The one thing that astonishes me is why Tories still harp on so much about her. Do they not see that this constant looking backward is one of their biggest problems? They need to look forward and have some kind of aim to where they are going, not try to regain the greatness (?) of the past. <BR> <BR>By the way, I can't stand Tony Blair either, he's a grinning idiot in whom I place less trust than my dodgy oven which cremates my dinner at least once a week. I am a "leftie" and proud of it - TB isn't. <BR> <BR>I am, on balance, in favour of the Euro, but mainly because it is a fait acommpli that I think we would benefit from joining. Our "we're different" nationalist stance is doing us no favours right now.

Derek

Thanks for the replies. And, Anna, Maggie Thatcher inherited a mess. Don't they teach history in Britain or is the UK historically ignorant like us Americans? She didn't turn it around overnight. For a caveat, I was a college senior during the Falklands. My lefty profs laughed at Mrs. Thatcher's resolution to re-take the Falklands. In so many words, I replied that Britain had too much pride to allow themselves to lose a war to some Latin American country. With Mrs. Thatcher's leadership, Britain re-took what was hers and restored pride in their nation. I doubt Misters Wilson, Heath, Callaghan or Blair would have led Britain to victory. As for Foot, Benn and Kinnock, they probably rooted for the Argentines.