What's with all the snobbery regarding fashion?
May 19th, 2005, 04:19 PM
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What's with all the snobbery regarding fashion?
I've been spending some time on this board because I'm going back to Europe in September for a precious week in Paris and a few days in London. I've seen post after post -- some people are coming back to report what people are wearing, others are asking the question for the first time because they've never been overseas before, and would like to know what to expect.
Then there are those of you who get all pfissy because we're talking about clothes, what to wear, and oh--dare we ask about how best to "fit in".
Last I checked, this was a travel board...one of the things you do when you travel is PACK, and that means deciding what to take. Perhaps it's because I have to fly 5,000 miles to get somewhere interesting, but part of the fun is deciding not just where to go, but what the heck to take with me and how to keep it under 20 lbs.
As I've read people's posts about how insecure (?!?) Americans are over trying to look a certain way, I found myself doing a gut check. In all reality, I don't give a hoot what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing, but it sure is nice to know what they're wearing, and what's fashionable and what's not. I thought that was called "curiousity" not "insecurity".
F-duh.
Jules, who isn't "Just American"
Then there are those of you who get all pfissy because we're talking about clothes, what to wear, and oh--dare we ask about how best to "fit in".
Last I checked, this was a travel board...one of the things you do when you travel is PACK, and that means deciding what to take. Perhaps it's because I have to fly 5,000 miles to get somewhere interesting, but part of the fun is deciding not just where to go, but what the heck to take with me and how to keep it under 20 lbs.
As I've read people's posts about how insecure (?!?) Americans are over trying to look a certain way, I found myself doing a gut check. In all reality, I don't give a hoot what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing, but it sure is nice to know what they're wearing, and what's fashionable and what's not. I thought that was called "curiousity" not "insecurity".
F-duh.
Jules, who isn't "Just American"
May 19th, 2005, 05:22 PM
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I get amused at this fitting in silliness, too. I cannot hide the fact that I am an American as soon as I open my mouth, and usually before.
My wife cannot fool anyone either. A couple of years ago, she was standing on a trail in Switzerland with her back to the people passing by. A hiker walked by her and said without stopping, "Your pack is unfastened."
He knew she was an American just by looking.
Was it clothes, hat, posture, boots, pack?
Who knows.
Maybe he thought she was Irish, which is half right!! But born and raised in the US of A.
It reminds me of the joke about the American who wanted to fit in. So he went into a clothing store in Italy.
The prices were very high because the shop sold brands like Armani or whatnot.
So he finally settled on one where the price was right but the fit was wrong.
One sleeve was longer than the other and the coat lapel turned up. The salesman spoke a little English and convinced him that he could not beat the price or the quality. All he had to do was take his chin and keep moving it to smooth out the lapel, and he could lengthen the sleeve if he kept tugging on it.
So the guy walks out of the store using his chin to press out the lapel and twitching his hand to lengthen the sleeve.
An Italian lady sees him and says to her husband. Oh! Look at that poor crippled American. But he does have a nice suit.
So much for fitting in.
My wife cannot fool anyone either. A couple of years ago, she was standing on a trail in Switzerland with her back to the people passing by. A hiker walked by her and said without stopping, "Your pack is unfastened."
He knew she was an American just by looking.
Was it clothes, hat, posture, boots, pack?
Who knows.
Maybe he thought she was Irish, which is half right!! But born and raised in the US of A.
It reminds me of the joke about the American who wanted to fit in. So he went into a clothing store in Italy.
The prices were very high because the shop sold brands like Armani or whatnot.
So he finally settled on one where the price was right but the fit was wrong.
One sleeve was longer than the other and the coat lapel turned up. The salesman spoke a little English and convinced him that he could not beat the price or the quality. All he had to do was take his chin and keep moving it to smooth out the lapel, and he could lengthen the sleeve if he kept tugging on it.
So the guy walks out of the store using his chin to press out the lapel and twitching his hand to lengthen the sleeve.
An Italian lady sees him and says to her husband. Oh! Look at that poor crippled American. But he does have a nice suit.
So much for fitting in.
May 19th, 2005, 05:42 PM
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Personally I think there's a big difference between trying to look appropriate by being nicely dressed, and obsessing about what exactly everyone else wears. I can't stop laughing at all the comments like "no one in Europe wears anything but black", "only a tourist would wear shorts in Paris", "only American men wear khaki pants or tennis shoes", and today's classic "do all Europeans dress alike?" According to many here, there is a strict code of dos and don'ts that approaches total silliness, as if every person in Europe has this very strict guideline of what to wear and no one varies from it. Hogwash!
May 19th, 2005, 05:50 PM
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General comment: we are just back from two weeks in Germany. Spouse was amazed at the bright fashions for women (and even some for men) in all the shops and even on many people. Definately a far cry from the old days. Very often, as we traveled, we observed both men and women wearing khakais, jeans, sneakers, etc., and they were not Americans. Very little all black clothing observed. We did not, however, see anyone wearing pink warm up suits, alas! The times, apparently, are a changin'.
May 19th, 2005, 10:29 PM
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Jules-I heartily agree!! In fact, it got so bad on this board a few years ago that I stopped coming to fodors at all. Actually, the posts seem so much nicer these days....but still.
When flying 12 hours transatlantic I will be darned if I'm not comfortable...and, walking around all day and night (which my hubby and I do when we travel) I'm wearing tennis shoes and sometimes even white ones (horrors of horrors for some folks!!).
Sorry, I had to vent....
Thanks for the opportunity!
Shadow
When flying 12 hours transatlantic I will be darned if I'm not comfortable...and, walking around all day and night (which my hubby and I do when we travel) I'm wearing tennis shoes and sometimes even white ones (horrors of horrors for some folks!!).
Sorry, I had to vent....
Thanks for the opportunity!
Shadow
May 20th, 2005, 04:55 AM
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The WSJ page W13 on April 23 had an amusing essay titled "Growing Precious" written by Geoffrey Norman, a Vermont writer about the "boutique horticulturists".
The opening paragraph:
------
The first day of gardening should be a joyful occasion. Persephone emerging from the cold, dark earth into sunlight and air and all of that. But more and more it feels like the first day of school, back in junior high, when you were sure your shoes were wrong and all the other kids were going to make fun of you.
-------
A little later:
There are people who must have the best goatskin gloves-and make sure that you know it. A pure statement of the impulse is contained in this gem from Style.com: "If you're serious about breaking new ground, there are chic tools aplenty, like Hermes leather-handled trowels and shears, which look particularly lovely with Burberry's new flowered apron. And while Ugg has not yet come out with gardening shoes, Birkenstock's urethane clogs will protect your pedicure."
-----
Boutique horticulturist meet boutique traveller.
The opening paragraph:
------
The first day of gardening should be a joyful occasion. Persephone emerging from the cold, dark earth into sunlight and air and all of that. But more and more it feels like the first day of school, back in junior high, when you were sure your shoes were wrong and all the other kids were going to make fun of you.
-------
A little later:
There are people who must have the best goatskin gloves-and make sure that you know it. A pure statement of the impulse is contained in this gem from Style.com: "If you're serious about breaking new ground, there are chic tools aplenty, like Hermes leather-handled trowels and shears, which look particularly lovely with Burberry's new flowered apron. And while Ugg has not yet come out with gardening shoes, Birkenstock's urethane clogs will protect your pedicure."
-----
Boutique horticulturist meet boutique traveller.
May 20th, 2005, 07:43 AM
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<i>"What's with all the snobbery regarding fashion?"</i>
Darling, haven't you heard, "It's called FASHION; it's not supposed to be for everyone."
The have/have-not equation is built into the mix, dear. Not every woman "can" look like a runway model but many wish they could. Many women (and men) also wish they knew how to dress their bodies better but don't know how to get that information easily. (Not every mother can teach a child something she, herself, doesn't know.) And many men and women wish they could afford better clothing. Let's face it, who wouldn't appreciate a custom-made designer suit if it came at a Walmart price? As long as there's a have/have-not situation, snobbery will exist.
<i>"dare we ask about how best to "fit in""</i>
Well, if "fit in" means looking wealthy and tasteful, it seems to me you have a few choices:
1 - Either you actually "fit in" because you know how to put clothing together and you ARE very secure with your sense of style and can easily mingle with the best of the best. There's no need to "fake" it because you ARE fabulous and no one can take that away from you. (Oh yeah, having the cash doesn't hurt.) Or,
2 - You manage to "fit in" because, in spite of not having a budget to shop everyday at Barney's, Bloomies, Saks, Neiman's and Bergdorf's, you still make money and know how to dress yourself and express yourself with style, and you know how to buy a few good items to mix-n-match (especially shoes), appearing as if you're the reigning queen of fashion (but only you know better). Or,
3 - You pretend to "fit in" because, let's face it, if you told yourself the truth, it would be pretty depressing. Pretenders will often try too hard and the worst can be spotted a mile away. You know the type: a woman who will purchase a fake Vuitton bag and wear it with her appliquéd jacket from JC Penney, her Reebok tennis shoes (for comfort), and sport a waist pouch with a bad haircut, all the while thinking (and believing) she's the living end. Or,
4 - You act and behave like the majority of people; you don't care. This doesn't mean you should not travel and see the world.
<i>"I've read people's posts about how insecure (?!?) Americans are over trying to look a certain way"</i>
America is a young country. She's entitled to feel a little insecure, especially when compared to much older nations. Respect for style and design is limited in this baby nation. Certain parts of Europe have been at this refined game for far longer and they're used to quietly taking it seriously without obsessing about it. It's ingrained in their ancient culture.
<i>"I don't give a hoot what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing"</i>
Isn't this one of women's top-ten lies? All I know is, whenever I hear a woman (or a man) say this remark, I don't believe them. And if I discover they <i>really</i> don't care, then I might think twice about letting them into my life.
Who doesn't appreciate a compliment on his/her looks (even if it is insincere or coming from someone who has no taste)? The most commonly over-used expression in American social life is, "You look fabulous!" Is that so?
People watching wouldn't be nearly as much fun if everyone dressed alike. But who among us doesn't stare longer at a breathtakingly beautiful presentation? Trying to figure out how to create that impact for ourselves can be more fun than you think.
Darling, haven't you heard, "It's called FASHION; it's not supposed to be for everyone."
The have/have-not equation is built into the mix, dear. Not every woman "can" look like a runway model but many wish they could. Many women (and men) also wish they knew how to dress their bodies better but don't know how to get that information easily. (Not every mother can teach a child something she, herself, doesn't know.) And many men and women wish they could afford better clothing. Let's face it, who wouldn't appreciate a custom-made designer suit if it came at a Walmart price? As long as there's a have/have-not situation, snobbery will exist.
<i>"dare we ask about how best to "fit in""</i>
Well, if "fit in" means looking wealthy and tasteful, it seems to me you have a few choices:
1 - Either you actually "fit in" because you know how to put clothing together and you ARE very secure with your sense of style and can easily mingle with the best of the best. There's no need to "fake" it because you ARE fabulous and no one can take that away from you. (Oh yeah, having the cash doesn't hurt.) Or,
2 - You manage to "fit in" because, in spite of not having a budget to shop everyday at Barney's, Bloomies, Saks, Neiman's and Bergdorf's, you still make money and know how to dress yourself and express yourself with style, and you know how to buy a few good items to mix-n-match (especially shoes), appearing as if you're the reigning queen of fashion (but only you know better). Or,
3 - You pretend to "fit in" because, let's face it, if you told yourself the truth, it would be pretty depressing. Pretenders will often try too hard and the worst can be spotted a mile away. You know the type: a woman who will purchase a fake Vuitton bag and wear it with her appliquéd jacket from JC Penney, her Reebok tennis shoes (for comfort), and sport a waist pouch with a bad haircut, all the while thinking (and believing) she's the living end. Or,
4 - You act and behave like the majority of people; you don't care. This doesn't mean you should not travel and see the world.
<i>"I've read people's posts about how insecure (?!?) Americans are over trying to look a certain way"</i>
America is a young country. She's entitled to feel a little insecure, especially when compared to much older nations. Respect for style and design is limited in this baby nation. Certain parts of Europe have been at this refined game for far longer and they're used to quietly taking it seriously without obsessing about it. It's ingrained in their ancient culture.
<i>"I don't give a hoot what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing"</i>
Isn't this one of women's top-ten lies? All I know is, whenever I hear a woman (or a man) say this remark, I don't believe them. And if I discover they <i>really</i> don't care, then I might think twice about letting them into my life.
Who doesn't appreciate a compliment on his/her looks (even if it is insincere or coming from someone who has no taste)? The most commonly over-used expression in American social life is, "You look fabulous!" Is that so?
People watching wouldn't be nearly as much fun if everyone dressed alike. But who among us doesn't stare longer at a breathtakingly beautiful presentation? Trying to figure out how to create that impact for ourselves can be more fun than you think.
May 20th, 2005, 09:14 AM
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NYFoodSnob -- Of course anyone someone like me cares about how they look...my point is only that if one is comfortable and has the least bit of a sense of style that they shouldn't worry about what others think.
We've all seen people who get stuck in a rut -- there's still a few ladies out there with beehive hairdos and makeup from the 1960s and I still spot an occasional Kenya bag from the '80s, (who knew wedge and donut hole shoes would come back?) but for the most part, people like me buy a few new things every year and let the really trendy stuff go by -- like a hot pink trench coat or anything involving Burbery plaid (pardon the misspelling).
I don't think for a moment that I have to carry a Louis Vuitton bag -- and the people I know who do may drive BMWs but they don't own their own homes, which, when you leave Manhattan or other more expensive parts of the Eastern seaboard, is a rite of passage for most adults who make anywhere near $40K a year.
I sincerely want to know that the Parisians are wearing -- particularly when I find out that Western boots are "in" if for no other reason to keep from laughing and pointing the first time I see it.
Happy Travels,
Jules
We've all seen people who get stuck in a rut -- there's still a few ladies out there with beehive hairdos and makeup from the 1960s and I still spot an occasional Kenya bag from the '80s, (who knew wedge and donut hole shoes would come back?) but for the most part, people like me buy a few new things every year and let the really trendy stuff go by -- like a hot pink trench coat or anything involving Burbery plaid (pardon the misspelling).
I don't think for a moment that I have to carry a Louis Vuitton bag -- and the people I know who do may drive BMWs but they don't own their own homes, which, when you leave Manhattan or other more expensive parts of the Eastern seaboard, is a rite of passage for most adults who make anywhere near $40K a year.
I sincerely want to know that the Parisians are wearing -- particularly when I find out that Western boots are "in" if for no other reason to keep from laughing and pointing the first time I see it.
Happy Travels,
Jules
May 20th, 2005, 09:43 AM
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<i>"I sincerely want to know that the Parisians are wearing -- particularly when I find out that Western boots are "in" if for no other reason to keep from laughing and pointing the first time I see it."</i>
Well, if this is any indication of your <i>actual</i> public reaction to such a thing, then I suggest there's a bigger problem here.
There are tons of resources available for up-to-date information on what is "happening" in the world of fashion, no matter if it's in NYC, Paris, or Milan. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Fodor's Travel Talk is nowhere near the top shelf of research for this kind of info, which is why most of these threads die a lonely death.
I'm not saying there aren't well-dressed among us fodorites with great ideas and suggestions. But, without photos, how can anyone REALLY tell or give serious analysis to what others are trying to describe? You know, a picture IS worth a thousand words...and it can save as many in the photo-viewing format.
ps Comfort with oneself does not guarantee a concern-less foray into the Paris fashion/shopping arena. My mother dressed like a resident of Fifth Avenue even though she lived in Ohio. She was plenty comfortable with her local stand-out status and, when women approached her in malls and grocery stores to compliment her on her style, she said "thank you" with a smile and told them where they could purchase each item. Yet, after I offered her first plane ticket to Paris, the first words out of her mouth were, "Oh my God, what will I wear?"
Well, if this is any indication of your <i>actual</i> public reaction to such a thing, then I suggest there's a bigger problem here.
There are tons of resources available for up-to-date information on what is "happening" in the world of fashion, no matter if it's in NYC, Paris, or Milan. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Fodor's Travel Talk is nowhere near the top shelf of research for this kind of info, which is why most of these threads die a lonely death.
I'm not saying there aren't well-dressed among us fodorites with great ideas and suggestions. But, without photos, how can anyone REALLY tell or give serious analysis to what others are trying to describe? You know, a picture IS worth a thousand words...and it can save as many in the photo-viewing format.
ps Comfort with oneself does not guarantee a concern-less foray into the Paris fashion/shopping arena. My mother dressed like a resident of Fifth Avenue even though she lived in Ohio. She was plenty comfortable with her local stand-out status and, when women approached her in malls and grocery stores to compliment her on her style, she said "thank you" with a smile and told them where they could purchase each item. Yet, after I offered her first plane ticket to Paris, the first words out of her mouth were, "Oh my God, what will I wear?"
May 20th, 2005, 10:03 AM
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You have an idea there -- Maybe we should get someone to just put up web cams around Paris and other places in Europe, and we can watch them full time, like fish in a bowl.
Sorry you missed my attempt at trying to make light of things. Yes, I posssess many social skills, including to not point and laugh at anyone, even if they're tragically hip. But then I have to ask myself -- New Yorkers are known for their cutting sense of humor, perhaps your reply was a joke as well.
My only point of this post was to open up conversation about the fact that it's OK to wonder out loud about what other people are wearing, and for people to dress how they wish, since most people planet-wide do anyway.
Turning it into an issue of self-esteem seems very odd to me, when curiousity about everything from the people, places, culture (including fashion) is a natural part of travel -- and part of the reason we take the trouble to fly so far for so little time in our lives.
Jules
Sorry you missed my attempt at trying to make light of things. Yes, I posssess many social skills, including to not point and laugh at anyone, even if they're tragically hip. But then I have to ask myself -- New Yorkers are known for their cutting sense of humor, perhaps your reply was a joke as well.
My only point of this post was to open up conversation about the fact that it's OK to wonder out loud about what other people are wearing, and for people to dress how they wish, since most people planet-wide do anyway.
Turning it into an issue of self-esteem seems very odd to me, when curiousity about everything from the people, places, culture (including fashion) is a natural part of travel -- and part of the reason we take the trouble to fly so far for so little time in our lives.
Jules
May 20th, 2005, 10:11 AM
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Hey Shadow------
If I were to see you in your sneakers, yes, even your white ones, the only conclusion I would draw is that you are a very smart lady!
Because after all, the SHHHAAAADDDDOOOWWW knows... !
T.
If I were to see you in your sneakers, yes, even your white ones, the only conclusion I would draw is that you are a very smart lady!
Because after all, the SHHHAAAADDDDOOOWWW knows... !
T.
May 20th, 2005, 10:48 AM
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<i>"perhaps your reply was a joke as well."</i>
Indeed, it was and I didn't miss your light attempt.
<i>"Turning it into an issue of self-esteem seems very odd to me"</i>
Self-grooming can be directly associated with issues of self-esteem. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but, for me, there's nothing odd about it.
<i>"My only point of this post was to open up conversation about the fact that it's OK to wonder out loud about what other people are wearing, and for people to dress how they wish, since most people planet-wide do anyway."</i>
Certainly can't argue with that.
Indeed, it was and I didn't miss your light attempt.
<i>"Turning it into an issue of self-esteem seems very odd to me"</i>
Self-grooming can be directly associated with issues of self-esteem. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but, for me, there's nothing odd about it.
<i>"My only point of this post was to open up conversation about the fact that it's OK to wonder out loud about what other people are wearing, and for people to dress how they wish, since most people planet-wide do anyway."</i>
Certainly can't argue with that.
May 20th, 2005, 11:52 AM
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sansman
How do you know the fellow who said "Your pack is unfastened," was Swiss?
He sounded and looked Spanish.
I might add that even in Paris, the store clerks, if they speak at all, automatically use English with both of us.
I think we have that don't speak a word of French look.
We have benefitted from several Parisians who spoke English well and offered to help us.
My Italian suit does help me look Italian!!
How do you know the fellow who said "Your pack is unfastened," was Swiss?
He sounded and looked Spanish.
I might add that even in Paris, the store clerks, if they speak at all, automatically use English with both of us.
I think we have that don't speak a word of French look.
We have benefitted from several Parisians who spoke English well and offered to help us.
My Italian suit does help me look Italian!!
May 20th, 2005, 02:35 PM
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I noticed on my most recent trip to Paris that people either approached me in French, Spanish or Italian. Not once in English, even though I live in California. I found it very amusing especially when asked where the Vendome was, the Louvre, etc. My favorite was when an American family had just gotten off the Metro with all their baggage. In the most broken French they were asking where a hotel was. When I answered in English they were so relieved.
I really made a point to notice what everyone was wearing this trip. I saw very few people dressed nicely. Lots of bermuda shorts, fanny packs and those "dreadful" white tennis shoes.
I enjoy dressing nicely. A lot of black and white, which is part of my daily wardrobe at home.
I really made a point to notice what everyone was wearing this trip. I saw very few people dressed nicely. Lots of bermuda shorts, fanny packs and those "dreadful" white tennis shoes.
I enjoy dressing nicely. A lot of black and white, which is part of my daily wardrobe at home.
May 20th, 2005, 03:35 PM
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The problem is that when people express a desire to know how to fit in, they do not specify whether they mean how to fit in with (for example) Parisien business people, Germans on a sports holiday, English in the garden, or just about anyone attempting to walk 7 km of cobblestones in the rain. Needless to say, the answer would vary considerably from situation to situation.
Also (and only because you expressed an interest in fitting in and adhering to established norms)....unlike its more sophisticated adjective cousin, the well-dressed curiosity (noun) does not wear a 'u'.
Also (and only because you expressed an interest in fitting in and adhering to established norms)....unlike its more sophisticated adjective cousin, the well-dressed curiosity (noun) does not wear a 'u'.
