what to wear and not look like a tourist
May 1st, 2007, 08:19 PM
#102
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girlspytravel wrote:
<<Tomas- sorry, but your interpretation of the Italian expression "da fare una bella figura" or its opposite, "da fare una FIGURACCIA" is not on the mark.
>>
Cara Girlspy, you have thrown down the hand-stitched goatskin gauntlet, and I shall pick it up. Seeing no need for a second slugfest on this thread, you and I will happily settle for a friendly discussion on just what it was I wrote and whether I got it right!
First, as my post stated, I was directly quoting Italian writer Beppo Severgnini. His author notes on the jacket of "La Bella Figura" state: Beppe Severgnini is a columnist for Italy's largest-circulation daily newspaper, Corriere Della Sera, and covered Italy for The Economist from 1993 to 2003. He is the author of th international bestseller Ciao, America! He lives with his family in Crema, on the outskirts of Milan."
Crema, by the way, is where he grew up. I wouldn't claim to know Italy, Italian culture or idiom as an expert, but I'm satisfied Severgnini does.
I'm not going to tell you that your interpretation of the meaning of bella figura is wrong, for many expressions have varied meanings depending on oh so many variables. You yourself wrote, "it has many meanings," while at the same time saying "my" meaning was off the mark. You wrote, "it is about comportment, about creating a good impression-absolutely", which happens to be what Severgnini said it is not. In the context I think he is saying that it is not MERELY a matter of making a good impression. It is, as you and he say, a unique expression that means, perhaps, making a "beautiful impression" - where beautiful means far more than pretty. Bella figura is not the same as dignity, or self-confidence, nor is it at all arrogant. They have plenty of words for those things. It is something Italian, a concept belonging to the people of Hadrian, Palladio, Michelangelo, Sophia Loren, Ferrari, Armani ...
Severgnini says also that, "we like nice gestures so much we prefer them to good pehavior." You give the example of an indicted person putting on a good show for the media as a sample of bella figura. I would counter that the media wouldn't find the figure very bella at all if it were shabby or overdressed. He wouldn't need a 2000 euro suit, but he'd need to have it "together."
In THE ITALIANS Luigi Barzini gives rest to the notion of some posters here that Italians (whatever may be the case elsewhere in Europe) don't care what you're wearing - or at least that they don't notice. "Nothing escapes their sharp eyes; they draw deductions from every detail: a woman's purchases, a girl's new dress, a new smile on the face of a young man, a strange car from out of town ..." etc. Not that they will tell you. They are observant, not unkind.
Elsewhere Barzini says, "The pleasure of Italy comes from living in a world made by man, for man, on man's measurements." There is no place - Tokyo and Paris included - where beautiful design is more a part of life. It is the country of Olivetti, Fornasetti, Pucci, Gucci, Schiaparelli, Pininfarina, Pelli, Vetri, Venini ... and Italians know this and are PROUD of it!! I don't think Italians judge a person by their dress (in fact, I think they are quite forgiving - more than a lot of people today, including many of the super-casual, to put it nicely) but they do see. And they know what they like, and they like style. They do. It is , after all, one of their major exports.
Look around for ten citations on bella figura and you'll get ten slightly different takes. Not often will LOOKS, including dress, be excluded, however. Fare bella figura, more to the point, is as relevant to how one presents oneself to friends, strangers and relatives as it is to the scene in front of tv cameras. Comparatively few people will be on TV, but everybody has neighbors.
Ciao!!
<<Tomas- sorry, but your interpretation of the Italian expression "da fare una bella figura" or its opposite, "da fare una FIGURACCIA" is not on the mark.
>>
Cara Girlspy, you have thrown down the hand-stitched goatskin gauntlet, and I shall pick it up. Seeing no need for a second slugfest on this thread, you and I will happily settle for a friendly discussion on just what it was I wrote and whether I got it right!
First, as my post stated, I was directly quoting Italian writer Beppo Severgnini. His author notes on the jacket of "La Bella Figura" state: Beppe Severgnini is a columnist for Italy's largest-circulation daily newspaper, Corriere Della Sera, and covered Italy for The Economist from 1993 to 2003. He is the author of th international bestseller Ciao, America! He lives with his family in Crema, on the outskirts of Milan."
Crema, by the way, is where he grew up. I wouldn't claim to know Italy, Italian culture or idiom as an expert, but I'm satisfied Severgnini does.
I'm not going to tell you that your interpretation of the meaning of bella figura is wrong, for many expressions have varied meanings depending on oh so many variables. You yourself wrote, "it has many meanings," while at the same time saying "my" meaning was off the mark. You wrote, "it is about comportment, about creating a good impression-absolutely", which happens to be what Severgnini said it is not. In the context I think he is saying that it is not MERELY a matter of making a good impression. It is, as you and he say, a unique expression that means, perhaps, making a "beautiful impression" - where beautiful means far more than pretty. Bella figura is not the same as dignity, or self-confidence, nor is it at all arrogant. They have plenty of words for those things. It is something Italian, a concept belonging to the people of Hadrian, Palladio, Michelangelo, Sophia Loren, Ferrari, Armani ...
Severgnini says also that, "we like nice gestures so much we prefer them to good pehavior." You give the example of an indicted person putting on a good show for the media as a sample of bella figura. I would counter that the media wouldn't find the figure very bella at all if it were shabby or overdressed. He wouldn't need a 2000 euro suit, but he'd need to have it "together."
In THE ITALIANS Luigi Barzini gives rest to the notion of some posters here that Italians (whatever may be the case elsewhere in Europe) don't care what you're wearing - or at least that they don't notice. "Nothing escapes their sharp eyes; they draw deductions from every detail: a woman's purchases, a girl's new dress, a new smile on the face of a young man, a strange car from out of town ..." etc. Not that they will tell you. They are observant, not unkind.
Elsewhere Barzini says, "The pleasure of Italy comes from living in a world made by man, for man, on man's measurements." There is no place - Tokyo and Paris included - where beautiful design is more a part of life. It is the country of Olivetti, Fornasetti, Pucci, Gucci, Schiaparelli, Pininfarina, Pelli, Vetri, Venini ... and Italians know this and are PROUD of it!! I don't think Italians judge a person by their dress (in fact, I think they are quite forgiving - more than a lot of people today, including many of the super-casual, to put it nicely) but they do see. And they know what they like, and they like style. They do. It is , after all, one of their major exports.
Look around for ten citations on bella figura and you'll get ten slightly different takes. Not often will LOOKS, including dress, be excluded, however. Fare bella figura, more to the point, is as relevant to how one presents oneself to friends, strangers and relatives as it is to the scene in front of tv cameras. Comparatively few people will be on TV, but everybody has neighbors.
Ciao!!
May 1st, 2007, 10:59 PM
#103
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I just re-read the OP, and there are really just 2 simple questions being asked:
(1) "Yes, we are tourists with cameras oohing and aaahing over the sights, but do you think that there is any way Americans can dress so we can enjoy the "privacy" that locals enjoy?"
(2) "Is there any way I can look somewhat sophisticated AND comfortable?"
Answers:
(1) - No. If you carry a camera and ooh and aah over sights, there is NOTHING you can wear to not look like a tourist. Now, if you don't take any pictures, walk past famous sites as if you have no interest in seeing them for the millionth time, etc., then there probably is clothes you can wear to blend in. But is that how people want to visit a foreign country? Is blending in so important that you miss out on famous sights (they are famous for a reason).
(2) - Yes.
(1) "Yes, we are tourists with cameras oohing and aaahing over the sights, but do you think that there is any way Americans can dress so we can enjoy the "privacy" that locals enjoy?"
(2) "Is there any way I can look somewhat sophisticated AND comfortable?"
Answers:
(1) - No. If you carry a camera and ooh and aah over sights, there is NOTHING you can wear to not look like a tourist. Now, if you don't take any pictures, walk past famous sites as if you have no interest in seeing them for the millionth time, etc., then there probably is clothes you can wear to blend in. But is that how people want to visit a foreign country? Is blending in so important that you miss out on famous sights (they are famous for a reason).
(2) - Yes.
May 2nd, 2007, 01:56 PM
#104
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Agh, so much to respond to! I'm loving this thread.
- I think that "not looking like a tourist" and "not looking like an American" are two entirely different things. I have no problems with the latter. I do not, however, ever want to look like I just wandered off the budget cruise boat.
And even though I think southern Europeans, in general, dress better than most Americans, it's not universal. The American white-sneakers-with-jeans looks fine to me, while the European sweater-draped-over-the-shoulders looks much too delicate and fey to me.
- Shorts can be nice, too. I live in a tourist town, and a lot of black visitors (but never the white ones, not sure why)wear nice linen shorts that look very chic. It's the baggy, ill-fitting Bermudas with the belly flopping over the top and the skinny legs sticking out the bottom that do not work.
re, Bunny on Service: "When you get seated in the rear of the restaurant and given the tourista menu, you'll get the "spaghetti/whatever bolognese"
- I forgot about this, and I fully agree! I want local food, not food that has been tamed for an American palate. Even at SE Asian restaurants at home, I've noticed a huge difference in spice levels when I am one haole in a mostly Asian group versus in a mostly haole group.
- I think that "not looking like a tourist" and "not looking like an American" are two entirely different things. I have no problems with the latter. I do not, however, ever want to look like I just wandered off the budget cruise boat.
And even though I think southern Europeans, in general, dress better than most Americans, it's not universal. The American white-sneakers-with-jeans looks fine to me, while the European sweater-draped-over-the-shoulders looks much too delicate and fey to me.
- Shorts can be nice, too. I live in a tourist town, and a lot of black visitors (but never the white ones, not sure why)wear nice linen shorts that look very chic. It's the baggy, ill-fitting Bermudas with the belly flopping over the top and the skinny legs sticking out the bottom that do not work.
re, Bunny on Service: "When you get seated in the rear of the restaurant and given the tourista menu, you'll get the "spaghetti/whatever bolognese"
- I forgot about this, and I fully agree! I want local food, not food that has been tamed for an American palate. Even at SE Asian restaurants at home, I've noticed a huge difference in spice levels when I am one haole in a mostly Asian group versus in a mostly haole group.
May 2nd, 2007, 02:22 PM
#105
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>>>>>
Everyone will know you are American (unless you learn Italian and outfit yourself in all Italian clothes when you get there).
>>>>>
since when is italy in the summer comprised of just locals and americans? of course we see this strange, self-important attitude a lot here on fodor's but it's especially striking when coming from someone who constantly posts about how stupid everyone else is.
>>>>>>>>
(Adult europeans wear shorts only at resorts, beachs or while actually involved in athletic activities. BUT women are allowed to wear cityshorts, but only real city shorts - to the knee, tailored, fitted and crisp/clean with a smart shirt and either ballerina flats or wedges.
>>>>>>>>>>
proves my theory that there is NOTHING funnier than an american trying to teach other americans how to dress, look or act european. priceless. thanks for a good laugh nyt....my sincere apologies if you weren't trying to be funny.
Everyone will know you are American (unless you learn Italian and outfit yourself in all Italian clothes when you get there).
>>>>>
since when is italy in the summer comprised of just locals and americans? of course we see this strange, self-important attitude a lot here on fodor's but it's especially striking when coming from someone who constantly posts about how stupid everyone else is.
>>>>>>>>
(Adult europeans wear shorts only at resorts, beachs or while actually involved in athletic activities. BUT women are allowed to wear cityshorts, but only real city shorts - to the knee, tailored, fitted and crisp/clean with a smart shirt and either ballerina flats or wedges.
>>>>>>>>>>
proves my theory that there is NOTHING funnier than an american trying to teach other americans how to dress, look or act european. priceless. thanks for a good laugh nyt....my sincere apologies if you weren't trying to be funny.
May 2nd, 2007, 03:04 PM
#106
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Wow. I think we've got a pretty full spectrum of opinions at this point...
I think that this is a relatively simple process.
1) Make sue that your attire is not insultingly informal. Don't wear a beater around town or to a church, etc.
2) Let your conduct take care of the rest. If you are trying to avoid looking like an American, I would bet that in many cases the reasoning is that you do not want to be associated with the stereotypical "rude American" lot. If your behavior gives people no reason to regard you as rude and they still assume you are because you happen to appear American, that is a reflection of a problem with THEIR attitude.
Don't lose sight of the joys and wonders of traveling because you are are worried about your clothes!
I think that this is a relatively simple process.
1) Make sue that your attire is not insultingly informal. Don't wear a beater around town or to a church, etc.
2) Let your conduct take care of the rest. If you are trying to avoid looking like an American, I would bet that in many cases the reasoning is that you do not want to be associated with the stereotypical "rude American" lot. If your behavior gives people no reason to regard you as rude and they still assume you are because you happen to appear American, that is a reflection of a problem with THEIR attitude.
Don't lose sight of the joys and wonders of traveling because you are are worried about your clothes!
May 2nd, 2007, 03:16 PM
#107
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I'm kind of confused as to why looking like a tourist is a bad thing. I will be taking my first trip to London, Paris and Rome in September; I AM a tourist and I AM an American~what's wrong with that? I love to learn about other countries and cultures and find it flattering when tourists to the US ask questions about our country and cultures. My parents recently returned from Rome and proclaimed the Italian they met friendly and helpful despite my dad's perpetual lack of fashion sense.
May 2nd, 2007, 03:44 PM
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tenthumbs -
truly, even the great Marco Polo wrote that one should never be embarassed to be a tourist. There are lots of reasons not to "look like" a tourist, all covered and re-upholstered above.
I knew a guy who had been all over the world, and always wore the same outfit, it seemed: a safari jacket, khakis, low boots. He never dressed thus here in the US, just to travel. Paris, London, Japan, Calgary, the Caribbean, you name it. In all his photos he had on that safari outfit. But he never went on safari - and always stopped at the best hotels. I guess his traveling costume gave him a sense of adventure - or just a decision-free packing process!
truly, even the great Marco Polo wrote that one should never be embarassed to be a tourist. There are lots of reasons not to "look like" a tourist, all covered and re-upholstered above.
I knew a guy who had been all over the world, and always wore the same outfit, it seemed: a safari jacket, khakis, low boots. He never dressed thus here in the US, just to travel. Paris, London, Japan, Calgary, the Caribbean, you name it. In all his photos he had on that safari outfit. But he never went on safari - and always stopped at the best hotels. I guess his traveling costume gave him a sense of adventure - or just a decision-free packing process!
May 3rd, 2007, 11:41 PM
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I love all of this discussion and agreement/disagreement not to mention catty responses. Go ahead--ignore ALL the advice--wear huge white trainers and get refused entry to clubs--wear denim and get refused entry to Harrods--wear baggy beach shorts displaying your hairy belly and skinny legs. Go ahead! I dare you! DO IT! And when you return from your European vacation, write this forum and tell us what it was like. I can't wait. BMK
May 4th, 2007, 06:29 AM
#112
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Jim -
Was looking at R Steve's "Best of" dvd on Italy last night, and indeed, he does wear similar if not identical shirts. Reminds me of the old TV westerns: LIttle Joe, Hoss, Adam ... they all wore exactly the same thing every week. In that case it was so they could re-use all the incidental shots of "riding the horse over the ridge", "riding up to the barn" etc.
As Steves biggest target audience is the first-timer or relative novice traveler, he gives tips on these videos. When you see how light he packs, it's easy to understand why he's in those same shirts a lot of the time. And of course, maybe they just decided he'd always wear blue because it looks best on him, or best on video.
Germane to this discussion, RS says that once you've packed light and smart, you don't need to worry about what you're wearing. Instead, he says, think about how you're behaving, and you'll always be welcome. RS is not my all-time favorite travel guide, but he can make a lot of sense sometimes.
I think one of the reasons the "what to wear" question comes up - in whatever context - is that it takes experience to pack one little bag and not wish you had done it differently once you arrive.
I have a friend who lives with the "pack light" philosophy. He has a small closet, a small dresser, and only owns clothes he really wears. Stylish, but not trendy. By the time they are out of fashion he has gotten his money's worth out of them, so he never has a bunch of unworn stuff in the back of the closet. I'd like to be more like that, haven't achieved it yet.
Was looking at R Steve's "Best of" dvd on Italy last night, and indeed, he does wear similar if not identical shirts. Reminds me of the old TV westerns: LIttle Joe, Hoss, Adam ... they all wore exactly the same thing every week. In that case it was so they could re-use all the incidental shots of "riding the horse over the ridge", "riding up to the barn" etc.
As Steves biggest target audience is the first-timer or relative novice traveler, he gives tips on these videos. When you see how light he packs, it's easy to understand why he's in those same shirts a lot of the time. And of course, maybe they just decided he'd always wear blue because it looks best on him, or best on video.
Germane to this discussion, RS says that once you've packed light and smart, you don't need to worry about what you're wearing. Instead, he says, think about how you're behaving, and you'll always be welcome. RS is not my all-time favorite travel guide, but he can make a lot of sense sometimes.
I think one of the reasons the "what to wear" question comes up - in whatever context - is that it takes experience to pack one little bag and not wish you had done it differently once you arrive.
I have a friend who lives with the "pack light" philosophy. He has a small closet, a small dresser, and only owns clothes he really wears. Stylish, but not trendy. By the time they are out of fashion he has gotten his money's worth out of them, so he never has a bunch of unworn stuff in the back of the closet. I'd like to be more like that, haven't achieved it yet.
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
#113
I've read so many of these comments about dressing in Europe that I had to report this passage from a Donna Leon novel (Blood from a Stone) I just read:
Commissario Brunetti: "Yes Signora? Did you see something?"
"There were some Americans here when it happened."
"How did you know they were Americans?"
"They had white shoes and they were very loud."
Commissario Brunetti: "Yes Signora? Did you see something?"
"There were some Americans here when it happened."
"How did you know they were Americans?"
"They had white shoes and they were very loud."
Dec 29th, 2007, 10:06 PM
#117
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Man, I hate it when dem damn foreigners come down here in America lookin like touristy outsiders! Euros walkin around in there stupid dark shoes and knit slacks! As soon as they cross that border into this great and stylish US of A, they better put on some white shoes and a Cookie Monster T shirt or I'm gonna be piiissssed!!!!!
Oct 13th, 2009, 02:21 PM
#119
Is it time for another round of "Proud to be a tourist"?
Here is how tourists look: http://tinyurl.com/yfzfjx4
Here is how tourists look: http://tinyurl.com/yfzfjx4
