Idnas71

Hello again. I've had several questions on here lately... sorry for jumping all over. I figured it might be better to ask about specific topics individually rather than ask ten different things in one multi-theme thread. I'm also just plain having trouble trying to decide the best way to spend my short time in Italy/Switzerland coming up in mid March.

So I was wondering if you can just hop on one of the Bernina Express trains at different towns along the route and what particular stretch of the route is the most fun. Can I access it via public transportation at some point from Venice without backtracking to Milan? It doesn't appear so to me.

Thanks for any opinions!



Th

PalQ

1- the summit is the most spectacular stretch is between the stops Ospizio Bernina and Alp Grum. this is where there is a glacial lake at the foot of ice-bound peaks - the epitome of Alpine glory. A popular walk goes around the lake and between the two stations, a few kilometers apart. these stations are about half-way between Tirano and St Moritz. the whole route is gorgeous but this is the finest scenery at these two stops on any mainline rail line in Europe (mainline in that you can use it for real transport to get someplace, not up to some mountain peak and back.
Best way from venice is via Milano. In theory you could go to Edolo and hook up with buses to Tirano but check schedules.

PalQ

The 'Bernina Express,' which bills itself as the world's slowest express train is a misnomer as it creeps along the tortuous line. It does stop a few times fewer than the regular trains which ply this route hourly. The few daily Bernina Express trains have a hostess and running commentary in several languages and a few dome cars in first class. Regular trains of course have same scenery. In summer there are open-air cars that are a thrill- basically a platform with seats moving thru the fantastic scenery. Reservations are required for first class observation cars. Italian trains take you to Tirano and then you cross the square to hop on this Swiss train, which runs thru a few miles of Italy.

Intrepid1

Uh...I thought the Glacier Express was "the world's slowest express train" at 8 hours for only 240 miles....or are they both just sloooooooooooooooooowwww? <G>

PalQ

The Bernina 'Express' takes 2.5 hours to traverse 61 km, about 38 miles, or about 17 mph vs 30 mph for the Glacier 'express' - in any case both express trains move along like slothful glaciers do. They both probably tread on this phrase.

PalQ

And thus the Glacier Express is really an express train vs the Bernina. Even at its bullet-speed of 30mph, it's way too slow for most folks who have endured the whole 8 hrs as the always nice scenery but rarely spectacular scenery becomes tedious. The Glacier Express, its name taken from glaciers on the Furka Pass it once trundled by but now tunnels under, runs mainly through verdant river valleys. The Bernina is short and sweet as this, the only train line to go up and over and cross the Alps north-south, is constantly making prodigious climbs, thus slowing its speed. And the scenery at the Bernina Pass is dramatic - top of the world alpine wonder - i've ridden all Europe's scenic railways and the Bernina i'd say is the most awesomely scenic. Best yet, it's cheap and Eurailpasses and Swiss passes are valid. Eurailers with Glacier Express have to pay hefty fee for portion not covered by Eurail (Zermatt-Disentis). It's not that Glacier is bad, it's not, but that most folks aim for it because of the wonderful publicity job the line does and rarely take the Bernina. Oh well, it's fun to bloviate!

Idnas71

Thank you, PalQ, for the helpful information! How long should a person allow for the walk you first mentioned between the stations of Ospizio Bernina and Alp Grum? Is this the same area that you later described as Bernina pass "top of the world alpine wonder" or a different place along the line?

Here's a few more Swiss transportation questions if anyone would care to comment. What is different about a narrow guage train? Along those same lines, what is a cogwheel, and what's the big deal about "without the assistance of rack and pinions"? What's the difference between a funnicular and a cogwheel, or are they the same? Is there a difference between a cable car and a gondola? I was under the original impression that cable cars all ran on the ground but I don't think that's correct anymore.

I'm sure if I visited the transporation museum in Luzern, I would have a much better understanding of all this, but I doubt if I'll make it there for this first visit.

Thanks for any further comments!

ira

Dear Idnas,

Now is a good time to practice using www.google.com.

PalQ

Yes the two stations are right in the top of the world scenery and they're three miles apart. But you could walk shorter by just going from one of the stations, i forget which one, to the nearby glacial lake and back, or just sit on the ubiquitous terrace cafe by the stations and drink up the view.
Narrow-gauge, often called meter-gauge, though some are narrower than a meter, means tracks are closer together than standard gauge- better for climbing and descending. A cog or rack and pinion means that on steep descents, ascents a cogwheel engages with cogs laid on the track for greater traction - you hear when the train goes on the cog portion, some of which are on the Bernina line. An aerial cable car is a moving cableway to which are attached gondolas - from a few dozen people to smaller ones with 2 or 4. A funicular runs on tracks and always involves two cabins, one ascending and one descending, usually a balance system to help pull one car up and slow one car down when descending - they pass half-way; power is usually obtained by grasping the cable as it moves though some have electric assistance.

Idnas71

Thank you, again, PalQ.

Ira, Google pales in comparison to the personal advice and information on Fodors Travel Talk. But thanks for YOUR advice.

Idnas71

Ira, I meant no offense to you at all...

PalQ

And Ira gives some of the most pertinent info on the site - often a web site but always helpful and polite!

Ingo

Hi all,

Idnas, you received excellent advice from PalQ, but I'd like to add some more points.

The Bernina Express is my favourite scenic train ride in Switzerland. I took it a dozen times or more (if you count in the smaller portions of only a few kilometres).

You don't need to take the "Express" trains, regional trains are running on the same route very often and stop at EVERY little station. Some Express trains do not stop at Alp Grüm e.g.

If I read your post correctly you will come from Venice. I believe you have to go via Milan to Tirano (along the shore of Lake Como which is VERY scenic).

An interesting site a short while after starting in Tirano is the spiral viaduct near Brusio. Funny how the train runs on this "road".

Another ten minutes or so later you'll arrive at Miralago, from where you have a fantastic view of the Lake Poschiavo with the mountains of the Bernina massif and the glaciers in the background. The train continues along the western shore of the lake to Le Prese and Poschiavo. Poschiavo is a quaint small town, very charming IMO with cobbled alleys, nice little squares and Italian atmosphere. Well worth a break or even overnight.

Then the train climbs up - Alp Grüm is the place to get off and enjoy the view of Piz Palü and its glacier with the little turquoise lake below. PalQ described the portion to Ospizio Bernina very well. A recommendation: Once I went off at Ospizio Bernina and hiked via Sassal Masone (restaurant) to Alp Grüm. It is a little detour, but more scenic than the direct route.

I definitely recommend to get off at the stop Diavolezza and take the cable car to the mountain there. The view is breathtaking, one of the best in the Alps!

You'll have another wonderful view from the "Montebello curve", maybe ten minutes after the Diavolezza stop, before descending to the stop Morteratsch.

The remaining portion to Pontresina and ST. Moritz doesn't offer much. But the Engadin is of course a place where you could spend many more days ...

If you are interested in more information on the Bernina Express and the Engadin - I posted several trip reports here, including some links to pictures.

Ingo

Idnas71

Ingo,
Thank you so much for the additional details. I have read several of your postings about Switzerland, the Engadin in particular, and I did see some of your lovely photos already. You've been a great influence on my plans/changing of plans.

There are several things I'd like to experience during my brief 3-night Swiss visit. Would love a ride to the top of SOME kind of mountain on one of those gondolas dangling in mid-air (which prompted my thread about Rigis, Titlis or Pilatus). I'd love to go on a horse-drawn sleigh ride, or a toboggan run, or both! Regarding the tobogganing... are they easy to operate? I mean, is there some kind of braking device, or do you just take off like a bat out of He{{? I have been skiing before but never sledding. And I want to see some beautiful, medieval Swiss architecture. I think Luzern might satisfy that part for me. Stein-am-Rhine is not going to be convenient anymore as I am cutting the overnight at Innsbruck that I was originally planning.

Was also considering a day-trip from Luzern to part of the Berner Oberland region as it receives such praise here... just enough to get an eye full, not an overnight.

I still feel like the comment I made to Ira re: Google came off way wrong. The CAPS on "your" certainly didn't help convey my intent, which was simply to explain why I asked my questions here rather than search on Google.

There is so much helpful information here... I'm going to print and re-read. Thanks to all.

skikat9

I had a big group (about 20 of us) who did the St. Moritz to Tirano run last winter. I was the trip leader for the group and heard nothing but rave reviews from everyone. We gave up a day of skiing to do it so that's really saying something!! The scenery really was incredible, the best of many train rides I've done in Europe. I especially loved plowing thru the snow at the Diavolezza ski area. At some points the windows would be a total whiteout with the snow. The switchbacks, some of the most unusual in the world and real engineering feats, were something to see.
I have to say I never saw any "hostess" on board. The food was practically non-existent on our trip, and expensive. Don't come unprepared, if you tend to get hungry. We were very disappointed in Tirano. Nothing there to see or do.
All in all it was a long, slow trip but really worth it in my estimation.

Ingo

Idnas,

you're very welcome. Three nights seem to be a very short time IMO, but if you cannot spend more ... it's better than nothing.

I must admit I have not been online a lot lately, so I missed your post re: Rigi, Pilatus etc. If you want to go on a spectacular one with "mid air" dangling cable cars try Titlis instead of Rigi or Pilatus. But I am not sure if time will allow the trip to Engelberg/Pilatus AND sightseeing in Luzern. A better option might be to spend two nights in the Engadin, where you can do all you want: horse-drawn sleigh ride (best in Roseg valley from Pontresina or Fex valley from Sils), tobogganing at Muottas Muragl and take the cable car (most spectacular Piz Corvatsch/Silvaplana).

No, there is no braking device, you just put your feet down in the snow. It is fun, no problem at all.

If I were you I would skip the Bernese Oberland. Although it is really gorgeous it is not THAT spectacular in winter. Snow everywhere and it lacks the contrast of green pastures, dramatic peaks and white glaciers.

Byrd

Idnas71,

We took the Bernina Express from Chur to Tirano and back (with just a short stop for lunch in Tirano) in October, and it was an incredible day.

The weather was sunny (and warm in Tirano and Chur) but there was snow at the higher elevations.

You have received escellent advice from the Swiss experts, but I just wanted to add that we, too, found the train ride an unforgettable experience.

It will be worth the trouble to get there from Milan or wherever.

Byrd

Idnas71

Skikat9 and Byrd,
I think fitting this train trip into my schedule will be worth it, too. I only minded about going back to Milan because I was hoping to traverse some different terrain... but that is no big deal. Thanks for your votes, so to speak.

Ingo,
Three nights in Switz. is actually three more than I had envisioned when I started planning this little getaway for myself. That's why I've got so many questions about what to do with my time. (Belive me, I've been reading guidebooks like they're going out of style.) It didn't occur to me that flying open-jaw from Milan/Zurich would be so inexpensive (from the U.S. midwest) until my travel agent suggested it, and a bonus is that it's with my frequent flyer airline. My main destination was really Venice... I've wanted to see it for a long time. I realize three nights is hardly enough to spend in Venice for a first visit, but I am addamant about going back during Carnivale sometime, and I do make the most of my sightseeing time. So I figured three nights in Venice and three nights in Switz. would be a good balance.

Now I will do some searching for an inexpensive place to stay in the Engadin region that is very near a train station. Will be using public transport all the way. Have a wonderful weekend, everyone.

Lenore1

This discussion of the Bernina Express has stirred my interest. I will be in the Engadine in January and, although I hadn't thought of it before, I'm now excited about adding this to the itinerary.

I have a few questions that perhaps someone can respond to.

My first thought was to have lunch in Tirano and spend a little time there before returning. Is it really such a "nothing" place, as one writer indicated, that we should just turn around and take the next train back?

Do the various Swiss Pass options include the portion of the train ride that is actually in Italy or does another ticket have to be purchased?

We will be seven nights in Davos and only three nights in St. Moritz. I hate to give up my St. Moritz days. So we may actually do this trip beginning in Davos evem though it would be much longer.

Thanks for your thoughts.

PalQ

Swiss Pass passes the whole way, even for the few miles into Italy to Tirano- much like the Centovalli Railway Locarno-Domodossola is completely covered by Swiss Pass.
Tirano is a transit town, where major road routes come together - it has little character but i stayed here once and walked around - it's OK and it's Italy - lots of restaurants, but little cause to linger. And lunch will be about three times as cheap as in Switzerland! what little town there is is within a few blocks of the station.