dan

This is why I said that I didn't completely disagree with what you were saying Greg. In fact, I do agree with much of it. I think we are looking at things in two different ways. The Austrian leadership at the time of the Anschluss tried to maintain independence, but Hitler forced the issue. My own point is that Berlin was the source of the aggression and subsequent murders that took place in Europe. However, the Austrian government that was put in power was a Nazi one, put there at the demands of Germany. This is not to say that there wasn't a growing Nazi party in Austria itself. Hitler was indeed greeted with enthusiasm in Austria, and in fact, the idea of an Anschluss was popular with Austrian Social Democrats before the rise of Hitler. My own conclusion is that you can blame individual Austrians (and many of them), but it is harder to make a case against the Austrian state, since it no longer even existed as it had prior to the Anschluss. As far as Hitler's nationality is concerned, I think it is irrelevant for the most part. Certainly he did get some of his own racial ideas from other Austrian sources, but this was only part of his inspiration. Remember he did fight in the German army in World War I, not the Austrian. Hitler's idea of Germany was not limited to borders, but was based on race. Little of what Hitler did was in the name of Austria, but for the creation of a German Reich that would supposedly encompass all "German" areas. <BR> <BR>I think an even more interesting question is how much blame to put on the French state for things that happened there after 1940. Afterall, the French still governed half of their own country. However, I won't get into that here. <BR> <BR>There were many to blame for what happened in World War II it is true. For example, the Swiss banks. For example, the American government, which certainly knew of the mass exterminations in Poland and elsewhere. <BR> <BR>Sorry, if this got too far off topic, but Greg brought up an interesting issue.

Kay

To the original poster, I have to say I too love Germany. It is beautiful, fascinating and complicated. Also admirable in that the country has tried to come to grips with the WWII era. Unlike Austria. In my books, that gives Germany a big edge over Austria, in terms of judging them. On the other hand, I do love visiting Austria, too. Let's admit it, if we only visited perfect countries with perfect inhabitants, none of us would ever go anywhere.

dan

Amen to that Kay! Germany has had more to overcome in reputation than probably any country in Europe's history, but it has done an admirable job. Of course it was helped by the Cold War too, but the attitude change there has been profound.

ray seva

I went to Germany last year (visitied relatives in a village 45-miles south of Munich). <BR> Being Asian-american (filipino-american) I kinda had some trepidation about going to...please, don't take this personally...the land of skinheads. <BR> Boy, was I wrong! I also visited France & Italy on that same trip...and the Germans were the most friendly people!! Bavaria is really beautiful...and the people were very warm & helpful. I can't wait to go back! <BR> One thing I also noticed: Of the three countries I visited, the Germans looked/dressed the most "American." <BR> I saw more Nike/Michael Jordan/Dallas Cowboy gear there than most malls here in the U.S. Also lots of Levi's and casual clothes...much more casually "dressed-down" than the French & Italians. <BR>

Maira

I spent a wonderful vacation in the Bavarian Region about two years ago. I found it to be of breathtaking physical beauty, food was great and people were courteous, but somewhat distant, which is perfectly understandable. However, I have been told by Northern Germans that Bavaria is not "real German culture". So, Miriam, you tell us, are impressions of Bavaria what you consider impressions of Germany? I would like to think so, but apparently not even Germans believe that... <BR> <BR>I do have a hard time with the conspiscous silence that follows any reference to the Holocaust when talking with German people. Apparently it is something that they do not want to be identified with no more. Too late in my opinion...

Bob Brown

Germany is a very varied land. As a tourist one tends to see the convivial beer drinking and the fairyland castles like Neuschwanstein. But those surface pleasentries tend to disguise to the casual tourist the sinews of a society that is more socialistic than ours, with unions being stronger and much more active in wage negotiations and in the professions. There is more state control over public utilities and the transportation system than in the USA. The educational system is more strict than ours, particularly at the high school level, with decisions on who is university bound and who is trade school bound coming as early as age 14. Yet young Germans are rebelling against the system with a don't care attitude and their teenagers are just as adept as ours at building walls to separate them from their parents and elders. <BR> <BR>The economic disparity between the Ossis and the Wessis (East and West Germans) in terms of outlook and income status is strong. I saw a cartoon, most un-funny, that described the situation well. The first panel showed two Germans, one West, the other East, divided by the vertical wall. Then the wall came down and, in the second panel, the two were hugging in a euphoric moment. In the third panel, the separation had returned with the Westerner standing on a very high DM symbol well above the lowly Easterner standing on a very short one. <BR>Unemployment is also a problem, with attempts to create jobs resulting in low paying employment, encouraged early retirement and restrictions on the length of a work week. The years of commuist rule in the eastern part will take generations to reverse. <BR> <BR>By the way, someone mentioned Ernst Kaltenbrunner. He was head of the SIPO and the SD, the security police. (If I recall correctly the letters stand for Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst) He certainly was one of the most sinister rascals of history. He condoned and ordered the murders and exportations of Jews and others. He incited the locals to lynch downed American and British flyers. (Not all of them made it to a Stalag to be smuggled out by a Col. Hogan.) Although Kaltenbrunner was perhaps not as infamous in the public domain as Himmler and the Gestapo, he was, in the minds of many, the epitome of evil. This is a grim subject, and I think it time for me to quit this line of thought. <BR> <BR>But for those of us going to Germany, enjoy it. Germans work very hard to have a good time.

Barbara

I'm not much of a Web browser, but came across this question while looking for information on places in Germany for a trip my husband and I are planning next Fall - to celebrate our 20th anniversary. He was stationed for 2 years in Ansbach (before we were married) and loved the country, so the first European vacation we took was to Germany. When we stopped at a Stube for lunch and a beer, with one big swallow he said he was back 25 years - no beer on earth is better, according to him! After two weeks there, I was in full agreement. <BR> <BR>We liked Germany so much that we went back again 4 years later - and now are planning our third trip. <BR> <BR>We too were in Mitterfels - and very much enjoyed the smallness of it. Living in a large urban area (Metro DC), our travels to and through the small villages in Germany enchanted us the most. The people were invariably friendly and helpful. Lives seemed simpler and more genuine than our frenetic American multi-tasking society!

Doug

If a German tourist walked up to you on the street of your hometown and started grilling you about the extermination of the American Indian, would you apologize and appear guilty over events a few generations back?

martha

Actually, I do feel guilty about the way the nations were/are treated. I'm not saying I know what I ought to do about it to make things right, but it irritates me when people insist that some atrocity is nothing to do with them if they're still reaping the benefits of it or maintaining the attitude that allowed it to happen in the first place.

Maira

IMHO, Martha's assessment hits the nail on the head. My comment had nothing to do with "grilling" anybody about their history's past, but about the attitude of evasive silence that does seems to sourround the topic whenever brought up in any way, either implicitly or explicitly. I will like to know how to interpret this. Is it shame, indifference, ignorance about that part of their history...? The answer to me has a lot to do with what to think of Germany.

John

I've had many a business trip to Germany and also lived there in 1993 for one year. I find Germany to be a very beautiful country and the order and precision they bring to many aspects of daily life to be very enjoyable. <BR> <BR>Although, I found many friendly people, in general, they were not as friendly as the people of other countries. Perhaps I should say they liked to mind their own business rather than say unfriendly. I lived in the southern part of Germany in a small town called Weil der Stadt and worked in Boeblingen, 10 miles south of Stuttgart. <BR> <BR>In general, the german people are very intelligent and there is a high priority on education. <BR> <BR>I liked the german cuisine, but found that I could not eat it on a daily basis. Being an American, I found that I missed the diversity found in the US. Fortunately, every small town in the area I lived and worked had at least one italian and chinese restaurant which were excellent. Throw in a yugoslavian restaurant from time-to-time and I survived nicely. <BR> <BR>As for this business about WWII and their conscience, I can only say that it was indeed a dark period in their history and one that I perceived as an embarassment to many. It really never came up in conversation except with one woman I was seeing. This woman was 40 yrs old and she brought up the subject. I should say that the year I was living there, the local tv stations were routinely running at least one WWII movie a week and that the topic of many talk shows was about the war. Surprisingly, I learned from this woman that WWII was not really taught or discussed in the schools and the youth were not really aware of what happened. Of course, they knew there was a war and that germany had lost, but details about the many atrocities were not part of that. For whatever reason, the german government and media were no longer holding back any of the details and this woman told me that many germans were shocked of the news and had a difficult time believing that such things could happen in Germany and by the german people. I was asked about my opinion of Hitler and was told that some german youth considered him a hero. <BR> <BR>I was equally surprised about the reaction of West Germans towards the East Germans after the wall came down. I can tell you that many did not look upon them with brotherly love. At first there was a warm welcome especially since they had a lot of money to spend which was something of a blessing since the germany economy was facing some, new, difficulties. However, with time they turned against the easterners as an additional drain on their social services and considered them very lazy and not really wanting to work. <BR> <BR>I think the 90's have been a troubling time for Germany and it's economy and way of life. Up until this decade, unemployment was essentially nil and they have a history of importing cheap labor to keep their streets and bathrooms clean. They pretty much survive on a single wage earner and their salaries were the highest in the world. Combined with their short work weeks and endless vacation and holiday time, their goods became very uncompetitive on the world markets which was something new to them. Companies tried to make changes, but the very strong trade unions had other ideas. The result was a lot of unrest, attacks on arab laborers, blaming them for the downturn in the economy, etc. I remember BMW finally buying an interest in England to build cars as well as, here, in the US, along with Mercedes. This was a first. Building German cars outside of Germany. The reason was very simple. In Germany, the labor rates were something like $40 per hour and in England and the US, closer to $10. <BR> <BR>I don't know how this has changed life in Germany, if any, since I haven't been back there in 5 years. <BR> <BR>Overall, my impression of Gemany and its people was positive and I have many fond memories of both. Of ourse, their culture and way of life is different. Not all good and not all bad, just different.

Doug

Maira and Martha, I guess this is why there will always be liberals and conservatives. Some of us prefer not to flagellate ourselves over our ancestors' mistakes. Horrible things happened everywhere throughout history and we should hopefully learn from the past, but I'm not paying reparations for events I had no control over. It's time to move on.

miriam

Thank you all for your opinion. I was very pleased to get so many, mostly positive reactions. <BR>Regarding the Hitler topic, I have to state that everybody in Germany is ashamed of what has happened. My generation, I´m 29, is very much aware of the guilty our country has when we look back what happened to the Jewish people, the homosexuals and the handicapped people. For sure some people are fed up with being blamed for something they weren´t taking part in. To speak for myself, my grandfather was inprisoned in a kind of concentration camp, because someone told the Gestapo that he was a communist, which he wasn´t, he just wasn´t, like the rest of my family in favour of Hitler. <BR>We will never forget that time and take all the blame for it but on the other hand I think that most of the countries have a kind of dark chapter in their history, it´s just not being made public in that way or was long ago. So please, when you visit Germany do understand that some people are fed up with being identified with Hitler, the WW2 and the crimes being comitted during that time. <BR>For Maira: the thing with Bavaria and the Northern part of Germany is more or less a joke like you´ll find it in every country. People in Boston surely make jokes about the people from the South for being slow and lazy and so on...In Germany it´s the same, people from Hamburg are said to be cold, to have no humour and to talk little. People from Bavaria are said to be loud, have no manners and take life easy. I live inbetween(Frankfurt), so luckily I´m able to make jokes about both. Don´t take it too serious... <BR>I hope that, although my English isn´t very good everybody understand what I wanted to say. <BR>Have much fun while you´re here and by saying that I offer my help if you have any problems. <BR> <BR>Kind regards <BR> <BR>Miriam

Greg

<BR>My point Bob Brown about bringing up people like Kaltenbrunner was to show that *Austria* should assume much of the guilt for the Nazi crimes that is laid at the feet only of Germany. Kaltenbrunner was an *Austrian* as was Hilter himself. As I read in a news story about Netanyahu of Israel visiting Austria last year:lt; For most of the post-war era Austria sought to present itself as the first victim of Hitler's aggression. That stance changed only in 1993 when then-chancellor Franz Vranitzky acknowledged during a visit to Israel that Austrians had not only been victims but also "willing servants of Nazism." <BR> Austrian President Thomas Klestil visited Israel in November 1994 and recognised that * many of the worst perpetrators of the Nazi regime were Austrians*.&gt;This quote is from http://www.codoh.com/newsdesk/970921.HTML I cannot tell you how much it annoys me to see the blame all go to Germany when Austria has so much gulit it refuses to acknowledge. Austria has never paid any reperations to its victims. Hilter got most of his Anti-Semitic ideas when a youth living in Vienna from Georg Ritter von Schonerer who was an infamous Austrian hater of all that is J

Kay

Miriam, thank you for your gracious posting. My son lives in Hanau (near Frankfurt) and I have enjoyed visiting as many parts of Germany as I can comfortably fit into my three trips to your country, so far. More are planned. The bank towers of Frankfurt amazed me, even though I've been to New York.

h

<BR>Hi Miriam, <BR> <BR>Well, I've never been to Germany, but have shared a house in England with two visiting Germans who were students (One was working in the Arts). <BR> <BR>They both had brilliant humour and great tastes in Food!! <BR>By the way, I hope to get a job in Germany soon, wish me luck guys!! <BR> <BR>H.

raeona

What a wonderful discussion. Despite my 100% German nationality, I've never had any burning desire to visit Germany. In the 20 minutes or so that it's taken me to read through this forum, that has totally changed. I think it will have to move way up on our "hope-to" list. Thanks to all of you for sharing so much interesting info.

Al

Because the Germans are taking part in bringing peace to Kosovo, I am more than willing to change my mind about them as a nation. For the past five decades, Germany has sat on the sidelines, willing to let America and its NATO allies shoulder the heavy lifting. At long last, Gemany the economic power is beginning to play its rightful role as Germany a bringer of stability to Europe. This will have its costs, not only in marks but also in the lives of its people. I for one have become very tired of Germans being forever critical of America and not willing to lend a hand themselves. Now that their laws have at long last been changed, I salute this long-overdue assistance.

maria

Coming from a school girl's perspective..i"ve never thought much of Germany because in school, we never learn about its beautiful people, castles and land - we only learn about Hitler and the Nazis'. However, my opinion changed when i met this guy from Germany while i was in england a few months ago. He was the nicest person i've ever met - and his pictures had me yerning and anticipating visiting Germany. I think Germany would be a wonderful place to visit - i cant wait.

topper

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