Wearing orange in Ireland

Jul 30th, 2007, 04:18 AM
  #101  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Keep up the good work. Its a problem pretty much for every nation wethere its more underground or not. I do not though give money to beggars I on occassion give to some who look truly in need and I see a few regulars in Dublin like a women who suffered a troke and goes around the grafton street area. She is known to many and we all drop her a few coins as some are frightened of her as she cannot speak properly but I realised she is not nuts she probably had a stroke and is completely harmless and I always tell people I am with she is ok and give her a few coins. Other people have come in lately and its getting a bit dodgy but thats a part of being in the EU and we have to work with eachother and see where and why begging migranyts are coming from etc.
SiobhanP is offline  
Jul 31st, 2007, 02:48 AM
  #102  
 
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We advise never to give cash; many we help in eg canada re drug addicts. So we say to give money to the folk helping them, or give in kind.. a hot drink on a cold day or a good sandwich ... that way you know it will do them some real good.... Remind me one day when we are less rushed to tell you about "the man who walks"... Blessinsg this day..deep in jam and knitting...
anchoress is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 02:15 AM
  #103  
 
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Its hard for some not to give cash as irish tend to drop a few coins to someone who looks needy especially outside the Churches. I did give 10 euro to a Junkie once because I could not bear to see someone in so much physical pain and I felt he would not be around in a few days. He was shiovering so badly on a summers eve and not even asking for money just a cup and scared look on his face. maybe I was wrong but I knew he would get the cash somehow and maybe his last fix. At least he did not mug somone for it.I hoped he would get food as he was emaciated. Its sad because it could be anyone of us in the wrong circumstances.
SiobhanP is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 02:23 AM
  #104  
 
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I applaud you choice, Siobhan. When somebody is in a state such as you describe, it's not a circumstance in which to make moral judgements about whether they should spend money on food or getting a fix.
Padraig is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 05:47 AM
  #105  
 
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I also agree with you Siobhan, I know we are told not to give these poor people money, but you would have to be made of stone to constantly pass them by. A very close relative of mine works for THe Simon Community, and I can assure you homelessness is a much bigger problem than anyone wants to admit to, here in Dublin.
lucielou is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 07:02 AM
  #106  
 
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Well, on this we will have to agree to disagree... We have worked with the homless in places where it is a major problem for decades...and we know many who help in ways that maybe take more trouble than giving money.. One lady in the US I know gets up earlier than she needs to and makes a great pile of sandwiches and flasks of soup...others do similar things. It is not a moral judgement to advise not to give money. It is practical and deeply caring; we advise to give to those hardworking folk who are hard pressed to help these poor lost ones and who need every cent they can find. We lose som of "our" people in Canada every winter because we do not have the cash to provide blankets and the sheet plasic that would save their lives in bitter weather. We can make a little money go a very long way; the drug dealers make a lot of money kill. We care; the dealers do not. They need wholesome food and friends, not drugs that debilitate and kill. With better nurition they can be helped to get out of that deathly spiral. If folk just give them money, of course they will kill themselves all the faster. If that is a moral judgement, fine. We checked on this situation in Dublin very carefully when we first came to Ireland; there are many well-funded agencies there and each person who will accept help has access to food, a bed etc. Compared with the US and Canada, the situation in Dublin is under control and being eased. We spend our lives 24/7 and all we have and can raise working with the homeless..And we come across attitudes like this all too often.
anchoress is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 10:07 AM
  #107  
 
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SiobhanP,

I would do the same as you did, Siobhan. You are a kind, caring person.

Regards, Joan
chatham is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 09:05 PM
  #108  
 
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Appalling... what you are doing is assisting suicide; that is a crime. Would you stick the needle in these folks? Our Abbess says this to you; you may as well get a gun and shoot these poor ones as give them money. IF you really cared, not just this ignorarnce, you woul go to Merchants Quay or the Salvation Army in dublin; ask them how you can help... give money to t hem to help them help the addicts..... have the humility to do that.. to give your time. Siobhan is not being kind; she is giving death.. It is not caring; it is simply aiding murder. Please, know we seek money to help.. no one is beyond help....Throwing moiney is the easy way to salve your conscience. Please, help us to help them LIVE. Yes, it is painful getting off drugs; but the alternative is death. You do not know what you are talking abiut; we do. So do Merchants Quay and the Salvation Army. You are making the problem worse.
anchoress is offline  
Aug 8th, 2007, 11:23 PM
  #109  
 
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A great need for those trying to get off drugs is for sugar. Buy them chocolate, candy of any kind, sweet drinks; their bodies need this to help them. Giving them the means to buy dope is like giving a diabetic sugar; or buying an alcoholic a drink... With drugs, it will set them right back at the beginning. Imagine it was one of your family; what woul you do for them? Go on killing them or get them the help and support they need? They need you to be strong with them.. to talk, to get them the expert help they need. Merchant's Quay in Dublin is that place. They have a needle exchange scheme; to avoid AIDS etc. counselling in depth, detox prorammes, and for those who are far enough on to benefit, a residential farm where they can learn new skills and self worth and self respect. Always they need money and always they need supporters. you CAN channel that caring and wanting to help into channels that will do so much good...
see
http://www.mqi.ie/Home.shtml

Please, help them to help those you see on the street... There are ways that are good and ways that are not good.. we spend a lot of time picking up the pieces - and the bodies - after someone meaning well has done what you do.. given them the means on bad day in weakness to dive again into death. Blessings this day
anchoress is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 02:51 AM
  #110  
 
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SiobhanP-
"He was shiovering so badly on a summers eve and not even asking for money just a cup and scared look on his face"
I saw a guy pulling the same scam recently.He then got up and walked over to his mate and had a laugh and a chat before resuming his piteous shaking/begging routine.Most of the "homeless" beggars in my city are nothing of the sort.There are resources available for the genuinely needy.
One difficulty is that there are more chancers visible than real homeless because some numpties give them money. Salving your conscience can do more harm than good.
Please don't feed the bears.
Incidentally the sale of the homeless magazine "The Big Issue" in Glasgow has now been mostly taken over by the Roms, who send their women out early every day to get the best pitches. They have homes and access to the full range of social services.This has not been a prob for real homeless as 95% of the previous sellers also had homes etc.
Some of my friends work with the homeless & disadvantaged - if you really want to help there are organisations who are looking for volunteers.
zippo is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 03:52 AM
  #111  
 
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zippo, I don't think you have a basis for making a judgement on the situation in Dublin, on how gullible Siobhan might be (I suspect not very), or a particular person that you have not seen.

I think that it is better as a general rule to channel donations through organisations that you trust, but that does not mean that I will never give directly to somebody whose need is evident. I doubt if I am taken in very often and if I am once in a while, so what? The times when I get it right are worth more.

Just an incidental point: a few euros donated to a desperate junkie might lower the level of street crime.
Padraig is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 04:26 AM
  #112  
 
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Anchoress Said:

"We spend our lives 24/7 and all we have and can raise working with the homeless..And we come across attitudes like this all too often.

When we first came to Ireland; there are many well-funded agencies there and each person who will accept help has access to food, a bed etc. Compared with the US and Canada, the situation in Dublin is under control and being eased. We spend our lives 24/7 and all we have and can raise working with the homeless..And we come across attitudes like this all too often".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anchoress

You say you come across attitudes like these all too often... What do you mean by that, I hope you are not taking the high moral ground with me?

Whilst I dont wish to have a running arguement with you about this, I would appreciate if stop speaking to me as if i knew nothing about the subject,you have no right to tell people who are kind and give homeless people money, that they are doing wrong, as I said I have a close relative who works with THe Simon Community here In Dublin, and its complete rubbish,to say that every homeless person, who wants a bed has one!!!

I have gone on Soup runs with at night and spoken to many of these people, and I can assure, there are not enough beds here in Dublin, for homeless people, if you are one of the very very lucky ones, you may get a bed after a long wait on a list, and you must also fulfill conditions such as being on the Late Night bus that picks up a certain amount of homeless people, you do this for a month or more, and then, and only then, if a bed becomes available in a suitable hostel, you may get it. There is no consideration for teenagers, they are often put into hostels, with adults, who display very challenging behaviour.

I think you are being very judgemental telling Siobhan that

"what you are doing is assisting suicide;
"that is a crime. Would you stick the needle in these folks"
Siobhan is not being kind; she is giving death"



You go on to say:

"They need you to be strong with them.. to talk, to get them the expert help they need. Merchant's Quay in Dublin is that place. They have a needle exchange scheme; to avoid AIDS etc. counselling in depth, detox prorammes, and for those who are far enough on to benefit, a residential farm where they can learn new skills and self worth and self respect."


Unfortunately Anchoress, getting that kind of help here in Dublin, is like finding a needle in a haystack,it may all look very good on paper, but in reality there a not enough places on those programmes to cope with even a tiny fraction of the problems associated with homelessness. I have tried to stay polite in this conversation, if I have said anything that offends you, I apologise, but I really think its time you woke up and saw the situation as it really is here in Dublin.


lucielou is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 04:33 AM
  #113  
 
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anchoress - I think you've been very unfair to Siobhan. She is hardly "killing" someone for giving them a few euro. They may use the money on a bed for the night or a hot cup of coffee, or they might be using it for their next fix. Whatever they do with it is their choice. If they do not get the money through begging they will get it by another means. By Siobhan giving a few euro it might save someone from being mugged.

Zippo - the Big Issue in Dublin has also been largely taken over by Roma. In fact the Roma community have been in the news a lot here lately due to a large number of them being camped in a prominent area and allegedly harassing motorists for money. It turned out that a large majority of them are land owners and were here to milk the system. They've since been sent home.
cailin is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 05:58 AM
  #114  
 
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I am quite upset and shocked at your take on me as "assisting suicide". I am not also bringing religion in to this as it did not fit our original conversation. I do understand what you say about the work being done and help out there but I will tell you there is a waiting list for treatment programmes and methadone programmes. And some just will not do it it. You cannot force them in as some will not stick with it. The Simon community are excellent but all orgs like them struggle with money, supplies and beds. I have known some who did work in the Simon community many years ago so I am aware of them and some of the others as I lved across the road from one for 4 years that housed Male Alcoholics as mentioned above.

I know I am good person with or without your cruel criticism. I stop when I see an accident (I was the only person who did last week when a cyclist got hit by a car), I ask people who look like they are upset or in trouble if they are ok when in town at my own risk and Yes there is human suffering EVERYWHERE. I was in Mumbai last December and saw things you would not believe. The level suffering some endure is severe from Lepers to DIRE poverty we could not imagine here in Europe.

I think its very great to think of these organisations helping people but very Naive to think it works for everyone. I hate to see people suffer but this is a part of life for us all. This guy was not faking I have seen it in areas I lived in before. I am a realistic NYer and now Dubliner for the past 12 years. I smell trouble and B.S. a mile away. Your attack on me is quite vicious and uncalled for with your description. I have nothing but admiration for the groups working on these issues but you making assumptions and taking your high moral stance shows me you are far more rigid than I thought.

I hope you keep working with all those great groups and make your mark but don't ever accuse me of being hypocritical as I feel you are more than I. Also to be honest we all have opinions and just because I do things different from you does not mean my intentions are. Irish maybe are different as well. In many other places that guy would have been kicked away, abused or harmed. We are a nation that gives more to people in the street in my opinion as it is a cultural thing from years ago. I never worked in a country where so many collections and fundraising has been done at work or through sponsored charity fundraising. Its a part of everyday life here.

We all have choices in life and every single one of us could potentially end up like that person so I did not judge him. I hope he is ok and got help but if not I hope is suffering less and still alive. I can't say anymore but I would love to on sub issues you mentioned that are influenced by some of your personal factors. Thanks to my pals who know me here for sticking up for me as you know what kind of a person I am after all these years and I hope your work is successful.
SiobhanP is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 06:17 AM
  #115  
 
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http://www.dubsimon.ie/

http://www.dubsimon.ie/homelessfacts...onhomeless.htm

"Despite the obstacles faced by MQI’s drugs outreach team, the author concludes that outreach is an effective strategy in dealing with ‘hard to reach’ populations. However, there is a clear need for relevant agencies to support new initiatives such as the establishment of a wet hostel, alternative treatment options, and increasing the number of places on current treatment programmes"

Quote from National Documentation crntre for Drug Cibtrol on the excellent MQI services but still shows there is need for spaces


Now I am off to Mexico city in Oct anyone else travelling somewhere? This is a travel website.
SiobhanP is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 06:29 AM
  #116  
 
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SiobhanP wrote: "Now I am off to Mexico city in Oct anyone else travelling somewhere? This is a travel website."

Hmm. You'll have to change boards for that!

I'll still be valid here, as my next trip will be to Berlin (unless I stick in a visit to Brittany first). I'll mind the shop for you.
Padraig is offline  
Aug 9th, 2007, 04:03 PM
  #117  
 
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Siobhan,

Please count me among your pals.

Jim
JJBhoy is offline  
Aug 10th, 2007, 10:15 PM
  #118  
 
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"Judge not lest you be judged."
IrishEyes is offline  
Aug 12th, 2007, 11:57 AM
  #119  
 
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Well I may go to London Next Fri so thats my european bit padraig! Mexico and China and maybe India for work after.
SiobhanP is offline  
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