War Clouds Gather Over France
Jun 26th, 2006, 07:44 AM
#41
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> I'd rather have them selling goods than plotting more car burnings.
Degas, why do you hate the french businesses so much?
Many of those guys that were burning cars last year would be a ruin for any shop that would ever hire them. Or, they would immediately lose the job and land exactly where they were before.
Degas, why do you hate the french businesses so much?
Many of those guys that were burning cars last year would be a ruin for any shop that would ever hire them. Or, they would immediately lose the job and land exactly where they were before.
Jun 26th, 2006, 07:55 AM
#42
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stoke, I started at the very bottom at low pay, part-time jobs I'm sure many in europe would turn thier noses up at, and did pretty good for a stumbling country bumkin.
All many folks need is a start, a chance, an opportunity to make money in an honest way and not live off a handout from the government or steal or sell drugs. It doesn't have to be the american way, its just the right way, the right and the best way to help people help themselves.
All many folks need is a start, a chance, an opportunity to make money in an honest way and not live off a handout from the government or steal or sell drugs. It doesn't have to be the american way, its just the right way, the right and the best way to help people help themselves.
Jun 26th, 2006, 07:59 AM
#43
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altamiro,
I've read and re-read your post and for the life of me I can't see where we actually disagree.
My point about stealing being immoral simply says that you and I don't steal simply because it's against the law...it is wrong. That stuff isn't ours. I just don't see how this destroys families. Just because shops aren't open, families will be locked together in their homes? If shops are open on Sunday, why are families denied time together? If they want to work on Sunday, they work. If they want to be with their family on Sunday, that'll be great too. Seems to be a matter of personal choice, not the government's or any major religions' choice.
Speeding, drinking, and smoking (both) are all victimless crimes, stealing is not as there is always a victim. The victimless crimes are the way governments try to maintain an orderly society. I have my personal views on the victimless crimes but that goes far beyond the scope of our discussion.
I DON'T think the government or religion should restrict many of the things it does. See, we do agree!
Your last point makes me think you believe I feel that all laws SHOULD have a religious basis. This is totally the opposite of how I feel about it so maybe we agree again? Not to get preachy here but the 10 Commandments in Christianity really outlines everything that would result in an orderly society if followed strictly but we don't and end up writing thousands of micro-managing laws, trying to cover every circumstance.
I'm not saying laws SHOULD be based on the 10 Commandments or any religious basis so we may be in agreement once more.
As to your follow-up post, I in no way ever said that people any where in the world must have the possibility to shop 24/7 and am not crying for the french to open their shops. I am glad that they can do as they please. I have no idea what is good for the french and would never demand they change their society based on my beliefs or opinions. You must have mis-understood what I was getting at because we do seem agree once again. Sorry if I confused you.
MvK
I've read and re-read your post and for the life of me I can't see where we actually disagree.
My point about stealing being immoral simply says that you and I don't steal simply because it's against the law...it is wrong. That stuff isn't ours. I just don't see how this destroys families. Just because shops aren't open, families will be locked together in their homes? If shops are open on Sunday, why are families denied time together? If they want to work on Sunday, they work. If they want to be with their family on Sunday, that'll be great too. Seems to be a matter of personal choice, not the government's or any major religions' choice.
Speeding, drinking, and smoking (both) are all victimless crimes, stealing is not as there is always a victim. The victimless crimes are the way governments try to maintain an orderly society. I have my personal views on the victimless crimes but that goes far beyond the scope of our discussion.
I DON'T think the government or religion should restrict many of the things it does. See, we do agree!
Your last point makes me think you believe I feel that all laws SHOULD have a religious basis. This is totally the opposite of how I feel about it so maybe we agree again? Not to get preachy here but the 10 Commandments in Christianity really outlines everything that would result in an orderly society if followed strictly but we don't and end up writing thousands of micro-managing laws, trying to cover every circumstance.
I'm not saying laws SHOULD be based on the 10 Commandments or any religious basis so we may be in agreement once more.
As to your follow-up post, I in no way ever said that people any where in the world must have the possibility to shop 24/7 and am not crying for the french to open their shops. I am glad that they can do as they please. I have no idea what is good for the french and would never demand they change their society based on my beliefs or opinions. You must have mis-understood what I was getting at because we do seem agree once again. Sorry if I confused you.
MvK
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:18 AM
#44
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Mark, it seems like we are actually in agreement on most of the point - but not all. I did misunderstand you indeed on many points. Concerning the destroying of families - an exaggerated term, I agree - it was your turn to misunderstand me. You see, most people working in the sales industry have a family too. And while it is obviously quite necessary to run hospitals or transportation 7 days/week, it is absolutely unnecessary to do so with shopping (economically I mean). See, it is not a choice of the employee not to work on sunday - it's mostly his bosses' choice. With the job market in many areas being the "employers' market", the employees are at disadvantage. With no restriction on business hours, what is to stop the employer from telling the employee to work on sunday while his/her spouse's employee possibly only gets out of the work on sunday?
Most proponents of the "day off" simply say that there should be a day when families can be together and not on the whim of the respective boss.
Now let's take Israel - they are far more consequent with their "day off" (saturdays the whole country closes, not only the "normal" shops) and still they are far from economical collapse.
Most proponents of the "day off" simply say that there should be a day when families can be together and not on the whim of the respective boss.
Now let's take Israel - they are far more consequent with their "day off" (saturdays the whole country closes, not only the "normal" shops) and still they are far from economical collapse.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:25 AM
#45
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>Let the individuals make their own decision to shop or work on any day of the week, Sundays included."<
Boss: We want you to work alternate Sundays.
Grunt: I prefer not to.
Boss: Go pick up your last pay check.
I suggest that some of you folks do a little reading on the rise of the Labor Movement in Europe and the US.
Boss: We want you to work alternate Sundays.
Grunt: I prefer not to.
Boss: Go pick up your last pay check.
I suggest that some of you folks do a little reading on the rise of the Labor Movement in Europe and the US.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:26 AM
#46
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See, it is not a choice of the employee not to work on sunday - it's mostly his bosses' choice
Okay, would you be willing to let the employee decide if he/she wanted to work on Sunday?
Seems that would protect those with families and give opportunity to those who were single or needed extra money to support thier family.
Okay, would you be willing to let the employee decide if he/she wanted to work on Sunday?
Seems that would protect those with families and give opportunity to those who were single or needed extra money to support thier family.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:49 AM
#47
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>Okay, would you be willing to let the employee decide if he/she wanted to work
on Sunday?
It would be quite a conflict of interest. As a business owner I would probably put the business' interests before the employee's interests, especially if I had a rather unlimited supply of replacement employees. You?
The task of laws and government is supposed to be (among others) protecting the weak against the strong. With the job market in the state it is now here, the role placement is easy.
>Seems that would protect those with families and give opportunity to those who were single
And how would you enforce this law?
>or needed extra money to support thier family.
I have seen an interesting calculation which said that in long term, a negative income tax to such families comes cheaper for the general taxpayer body than the enforcement of rules such as you suggested above.
on Sunday?
It would be quite a conflict of interest. As a business owner I would probably put the business' interests before the employee's interests, especially if I had a rather unlimited supply of replacement employees. You?
The task of laws and government is supposed to be (among others) protecting the weak against the strong. With the job market in the state it is now here, the role placement is easy.
>Seems that would protect those with families and give opportunity to those who were single
And how would you enforce this law?
>or needed extra money to support thier family.
I have seen an interesting calculation which said that in long term, a negative income tax to such families comes cheaper for the general taxpayer body than the enforcement of rules such as you suggested above.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:50 AM
#48
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The article said the Vuitton store hired 70 people expressly for the purpose of working on Sundays. Nobody is making them work on Sundays, they volunteered, probably better to have a job on Sundays than no jobs or their previous jobs.
I like the idea of protecting smaller shops. Otherwise, Starbucks (are the ones in Paris open 7 days?) and Barnes and Noble would take over.
However, why should the govt. force people to go to church on Sundays or spend time with family? If these activities are important enough to the people, they will do it whether shops are open or not.
Plus as noted, most of the traffic on the Champs Elysee are tourists. All that foot traffic and they don't want to capitalize?
I've flown in to Europe several times on Sunday afternoon/evenings. It sure would be nice to find some shops or grocery markets open Sunday nights.
I like the idea of protecting smaller shops. Otherwise, Starbucks (are the ones in Paris open 7 days?) and Barnes and Noble would take over.
However, why should the govt. force people to go to church on Sundays or spend time with family? If these activities are important enough to the people, they will do it whether shops are open or not.
Plus as noted, most of the traffic on the Champs Elysee are tourists. All that foot traffic and they don't want to capitalize?
I've flown in to Europe several times on Sunday afternoon/evenings. It sure would be nice to find some shops or grocery markets open Sunday nights.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:50 AM
#49
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Ira, how about we look at the other side-
Boss: We want you to work on alternate Sundays.
Grunt: Not Me! I'm outta here!
Boss: Now where did I put that stack of job applications?
degas, it is entirely the choice of the employee where he/she works. I agree with your summary.
Altamiro, I agree that an employers market puts the workers at a disadvantage. But with 25% youth and 9% overall unemployment, one would think there should be a sufficient labor pool ready and willing to work that off-day without putting existing employees in the family-busting situation you describe. Just don't ask ME to work on Sundays during football (American-style) season!
Boss: We want you to work on alternate Sundays.
Grunt: Not Me! I'm outta here!
Boss: Now where did I put that stack of job applications?
degas, it is entirely the choice of the employee where he/she works. I agree with your summary.
Altamiro, I agree that an employers market puts the workers at a disadvantage. But with 25% youth and 9% overall unemployment, one would think there should be a sufficient labor pool ready and willing to work that off-day without putting existing employees in the family-busting situation you describe. Just don't ask ME to work on Sundays during football (American-style) season!
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:57 AM
#50
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>it is entirely the choice of the employee where he/she works. .....Just don't ask ME to work on Sundays.
It is wonderful to not have to worry about keeping a job, knowing that you can find well paying work at your convenience.
Unfortunately for most people in this world, that is not the case.
I repeat my immediately previous post.
It is wonderful to not have to worry about keeping a job, knowing that you can find well paying work at your convenience.
Unfortunately for most people in this world, that is not the case.
I repeat my immediately previous post.
Jun 26th, 2006, 08:58 AM
#51
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Altamiro, you never answered my question. Would you be willing to let an unemployed youth have an opportunity to work on Sunday? All this who would enforce it stuff is a dodge. I'm sure the French labor unions would watching things like a hawk.
Jun 26th, 2006, 09:13 AM
#52
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>Would you be willing to let an unemployed youth have an opportunity to work on Sunday?
As long as the unemployed youth does not ruin my business, I would. It would be beneficial to all participants.
Most places will however hire people who are not on the unemployment list anyway - for example students who earn their way through the university. The permanently unemployed youth from the suburbs will be left out of this anyway.
However, the idea of a separate work contracts for sunday work is not that bad indeed.
Here in Switzerland there are a lot of places (train stations, airports, etc.) which are exempt from the local business hours laws. Most of the employees I see there on sundays are of typical student age. It can have something to do with the 3.5 % unemployment rate, of course.
>All this who would enforce it stuff is a dodge. I'm sure the French labor unions would watching things like a hawk.
If they do, OK. It seems the British labor unions are quite asleep on the switch in this regard though.
As long as the unemployed youth does not ruin my business, I would. It would be beneficial to all participants.
Most places will however hire people who are not on the unemployment list anyway - for example students who earn their way through the university. The permanently unemployed youth from the suburbs will be left out of this anyway.
However, the idea of a separate work contracts for sunday work is not that bad indeed.
Here in Switzerland there are a lot of places (train stations, airports, etc.) which are exempt from the local business hours laws. Most of the employees I see there on sundays are of typical student age. It can have something to do with the 3.5 % unemployment rate, of course.
>All this who would enforce it stuff is a dodge. I'm sure the French labor unions would watching things like a hawk.
If they do, OK. It seems the British labor unions are quite asleep on the switch in this regard though.
Jun 26th, 2006, 09:18 AM
#53
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ira,
I can't quite figure out which side of this discussion you're on.
We're talking about retail sales/ service industry jobs here, not brain surgeons, rocket scientists, captains of industry, etc. If economic necessity overides family time, they can work or they may not.
It looks like you're talking your perceived real world and I'm talking my perceived utopia.
Could you summarize your readings on the rise of the Labor movement in the US and Europe? I'm too busy having fun readng this thread to do any off-line reading.
Gosh, for a Liberal, I'm sure sounding like a republican! Quick, send me the antidote!
MvK
I can't quite figure out which side of this discussion you're on.
We're talking about retail sales/ service industry jobs here, not brain surgeons, rocket scientists, captains of industry, etc. If economic necessity overides family time, they can work or they may not.
It looks like you're talking your perceived real world and I'm talking my perceived utopia.
Could you summarize your readings on the rise of the Labor movement in the US and Europe? I'm too busy having fun readng this thread to do any off-line reading.
Gosh, for a Liberal, I'm sure sounding like a republican! Quick, send me the antidote!
MvK
Jun 26th, 2006, 09:33 AM
#54
The French have been chipping away at the Sunday law for years. It won't last much longer, but gay marriage will be approved before Sunday opening hours are fully accepted. Each country has its own priorities.
Jun 26th, 2006, 10:46 AM
#55
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Hi MarkvonKramer
>ira,
I can't quite figure out which side of this discussion you're on.<
I'm on the side that says individuals have little bargaining power against large corporations unless they are members of reasonably strong unions.
>ira,
I can't quite figure out which side of this discussion you're on.<
I'm on the side that says individuals have little bargaining power against large corporations unless they are members of reasonably strong unions.
Jun 26th, 2006, 11:15 AM
#56
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Ira,
Now I get it. Sorry for the denseness, should have seen it.
For the most part, I don't have a problem with unions but when I heard that union-negotiated contracts add $1,100 to the price of a small GM car (independent sources, not GM's or the UAW) I just can't do the wealth re-distribution thing for such a limited number of recipients.
They had their time and still have their place but the "greed pendulum" seems to swing to both extremes. You are right in that without collective bargaining, the workers are powerless but the congress-like benefits-for-life contracts are a thing of the past.
Now I get it. Sorry for the denseness, should have seen it.
For the most part, I don't have a problem with unions but when I heard that union-negotiated contracts add $1,100 to the price of a small GM car (independent sources, not GM's or the UAW) I just can't do the wealth re-distribution thing for such a limited number of recipients.
They had their time and still have their place but the "greed pendulum" seems to swing to both extremes. You are right in that without collective bargaining, the workers are powerless but the congress-like benefits-for-life contracts are a thing of the past.
Jun 26th, 2006, 11:25 AM
#57
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In French, "free enterprise" nowadays is called "le libéralisme" or "l'économie de marché" -- letting market forces operate freely (liberally), without government intervention.
The government will always intervene at some level.
The late French songwriter/singer Léo Ferré, an avowed anarchist, once was told by his agent that some fans had insisted on being let in to one of his concerts for free. He said he hoped the agent hadn't let them in without making them pay. But the agent had, and Ferré was not happy. "Anarchy can be taken too far," he said.
I'm sure a lot of people in France would like to see stores open 24/7. That wasn't the question earlier. The question was about Americans who want France to be something it isn't -- at least not yet.
I live in France and I think the quiet Sunday afternoons in the towns are wonderful. Less traffic. Fewer shoppers. People who are out are out just for a stroll and a look around, rather than being out to satisfy a drive to spend money.
The government will always intervene at some level.
The late French songwriter/singer Léo Ferré, an avowed anarchist, once was told by his agent that some fans had insisted on being let in to one of his concerts for free. He said he hoped the agent hadn't let them in without making them pay. But the agent had, and Ferré was not happy. "Anarchy can be taken too far," he said.
I'm sure a lot of people in France would like to see stores open 24/7. That wasn't the question earlier. The question was about Americans who want France to be something it isn't -- at least not yet.
I live in France and I think the quiet Sunday afternoons in the towns are wonderful. Less traffic. Fewer shoppers. People who are out are out just for a stroll and a look around, rather than being out to satisfy a drive to spend money.
Jun 26th, 2006, 12:24 PM
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But if EVERYBODY gets the SAME day off, how does that work? I wouldn't be able to shop on my one day off from work?
Wouldn't it make sense to require employers to give people x number of days off per week, but not specify what day that should be (so there will be a mixture - some stores closed on Sundays, some closed on Saturdays, or Wednesdays)?
And I don't undertstand how having some larger shops open on Sunday will force smaller shops out of business. Do they expect that the vast majority of shopping will ONLY take place on Sunday, leaving no business left for the small shops? And, if so, doesn't that show that Sunday is the people's shopping day of choice?
I'm not a buisness major, so maybe I just don't understand.
Wouldn't it make sense to require employers to give people x number of days off per week, but not specify what day that should be (so there will be a mixture - some stores closed on Sundays, some closed on Saturdays, or Wednesdays)?
And I don't undertstand how having some larger shops open on Sunday will force smaller shops out of business. Do they expect that the vast majority of shopping will ONLY take place on Sunday, leaving no business left for the small shops? And, if so, doesn't that show that Sunday is the people's shopping day of choice?
I'm not a buisness major, so maybe I just don't understand.
Jun 26th, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Hi Mark,
Because very highly paid, incompetent executives at companies such as GM and Delta made stupid deals with their unions, doesn't make unions wrong.
Was it the unions that forced the Penn Central Railroad into bankruptcy?
> I just can't do the wealth re-distribution thing for such a limited number of recipients.
Why are some CEOs paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year, even though the companies that they run might be losing money?
Hi Jolie,
>But if EVERYBODY gets the SAME day off, how does that work? I wouldn't be able to shop on my one day off from work?
Once upon a time, a few days after the Earth cooled, when Uncle Ira was just a boy and people worked 1/2 Saturday and were off on Sunday, stores stayed open late - usually on Thursday.
It was something of an adventure to go downtown to shop in the late evening.
In some, less civilized countries, they still do that.
>I don't undertstand how having some larger shops open on Sunday will force smaller shops out of business.
How close is your nearest WalMart?
Because very highly paid, incompetent executives at companies such as GM and Delta made stupid deals with their unions, doesn't make unions wrong.
Was it the unions that forced the Penn Central Railroad into bankruptcy?
> I just can't do the wealth re-distribution thing for such a limited number of recipients.
Why are some CEOs paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year, even though the companies that they run might be losing money?
Hi Jolie,
>But if EVERYBODY gets the SAME day off, how does that work? I wouldn't be able to shop on my one day off from work?
Once upon a time, a few days after the Earth cooled, when Uncle Ira was just a boy and people worked 1/2 Saturday and were off on Sunday, stores stayed open late - usually on Thursday.
It was something of an adventure to go downtown to shop in the late evening.
In some, less civilized countries, they still do that.
>I don't undertstand how having some larger shops open on Sunday will force smaller shops out of business.
How close is your nearest WalMart?
