Hello! We are in the midst of planning a nearly 3 week European adventure next summer. We have decided to drive. There will be 4 of us and with everyone's priorities, we have come up with: <BR> 4 nights Berner Oberland <BR> 1 night Italian Lakes <BR> 2 nights Italian Riviera <BR> 3 nights Tuscany <BR> 2 nights Venice <BR> 3 nights Salzburg area <BR> 3 nights Bavaria <BR>I know everyone has their own way of traveling, but please give your opinion. Are we crazy? What improvements would you suggest? Thanks.

Sorry about my flip answer on your other post; I suspected that you had trouble posting and that the full message would appear. <BR>I will probably me in the minority here, as most people would say you're trying to do too much. I think it sounds like a lot of travel, but certainly doable, and I understand trying to squeeze as much as possible into a short time. My biggest concern is the single night in the Lakes. You will really have no time to experience anything there having driven down. If you could even sneak one more night in there so you could at least do a little touring around, taking a boat ride, or something, I think it would be better. If this were my trip (and yes, I've done all of these things), I would drop the Italian Riviera completely from this trip and add both those nights to the Lakes.

Hi Patrick! I got a good laugh after reading your response to my first post-Yep, somehow it got away from me! Thanks for your advice, and I agree 1 night stays are not good. We are trying to keep all parties happy and trying to squish alot into too little. I have relatives near Le Spezia, hence it's hard to resist a stay nearby. We could possibly try and see them while in Tuscany. Why would you add the 2 nights to the lake area and not Tuscany? I am not familiar with the lake area but like Tuscany. Is there a central location in the lake area you would suggest keeping in mind we will travel to Tuscany? Any suggestions of what to see in the lake area? To lessen the amount of travel, what would you cut out? Thanks again. The Traveler

My time in the Lake area has been limited, so next summer we plan to spend three nights on Lake Garda, four nights at Bellagio, and three nights at Stresa. I would choose Bellagio and its surrounding area on Como as the best of the three (but again, my time on all three of these lakes has been minimal). Some people rave about Orta, but it didn't do a whole lot for me. Because I live in Florida near the beach, going to "the Riviera" doesn't do as much for me as other locales, but I do love the Cinque Terra, especially if you are into hiking the trail. Since that is near La Spezia, yes I would consider doing that. Maybe two nights at Bellagio, then two at La Spezia or better yet, Manorola or Vernazza. But now we need to steal another night from somewhere. Hmmm. Maybe you should forget the Lakes till you have more time and do two nights near La Spezia and add one more night to Tuscany. Adding extra nights to Tuscany is always a good idea, in my opinion. Are you including Florence, or doing the hill towns of Tuscany only? <BR>Where are you flying in and out from? <BR>Depending upon that, you might want to reduce some travel by doing the Dolomites instead of Bavaria.

Hi Patrick! Thanks for the additional info. We spent a couple of nights near the Cinque Terre a few years ago and enjoyed it. I was attempting to see something new (lakes), but by eliminating the Cinque Terre, we would miss the relatives unless we can work them in from Tuscany. We did not venture into Florence on the last trip, so we thought of doing a day trip. We'd like to stay on a farm in a small village in the area. Any suggestions? We are flying in and out of Zurich, so if anything goes it should be Tuscany as the furthest point but hard to resist. This is tough. I would appreciate any other ideas you might have to throw my way. <BR>Thanks.

Hi Traveler: <BR>We did a similar trip this summer: From Basel to Lake Garda, then on to Venice, to Tuscany (stayed in an apartment right next to a catlel with our own pool and tennis court) near Castelfiorentino, then back to Lake Lucerne, and to Engelberg (we stayed half way up the Titlis mountain in a highly recommended hotel). If you do a search (maybe under my name?) you should find more details; if you can't find it, let me know and I'll dig it out.

The Traveller.. <BR> <BR>Stick with Plan A as listed above in your first post. Sounds just about perfect to me - good circular tour, no backtracking, and no huge driving distances either. If you are renting a car you may want to finish off in Switzerland (Zurich), as this could save you drop off repositioning costs, and would also permit a potentially cheaper round trip air ticket.

I think that' this will be a fair bit of driving. You may check out http://www.europe.opel.com/vicinity/...ve_input.jhtml for distances/time; however, we found that it will take longer than these estimated driving times, simply because of traffic jams near the tunnels/border in Switzerland and around Milan. I think I would skip Salzburg and Bavaria and spend more time in Italy or maybe return to Zurich via French-speaking Switzerland.

Hi Ingrid! Thank you everyone for the great bits of advice. Ingrid, your apartment in Tuscany sounds wonderful! We were in Certaldo a couple of years ago and Castelfiorentino appears to be a little north of there. Can you give me details of the apt? We are traveling with another couple. Would 2 bedroom apt work for all of us? We would like to see some of Tuscany south of Siena (Monteclino etc). About how far a drive to that area? I tried the web site and it is all in Italian. Is there some way to find info in English? Did you find the apartment clean, etc? <BR> <BR>Also, your two posts confuse me. In the first, you mention you did a similar trip but in the second you say that it sounds like a fair bit of driving. Did you find your trip to be too much driving? <BR> <BR>I found your previous posts and am in midst of reading. Thanks for the assistance! Looking forward to responses.

Hi Traveler: <BR>First, to clarify: We did a similar trip, except that we skipped the Austria/Bavaria part, which would have added a lot more driving. As it was, it was okay, although we would have loved to stay longer in each location (except for Lake Lucerne where it rained). <BR>With respect to the apartment: <BR>Check out http://www.tuscany.net/coliveto/ where the info is in English. The "peculiar" restaurant is absolutely wonderful: They have dinner Monday nights with wine/champagne and about 8-10 courses. We ate from 9:30 till midnight. <BR>Anyways, they have two apartment complexes: one with 10 apartment; the other with two (this one is right next to the castle and has a pool and tennis court). We were in one of the 2 apartments in July and never saw another soul; also never managed to find the other apartment complex. <BR>The apartment itself had a kitchen, living/dining room, one bedroom with a large bed (between King and Queen), the other bedroom with two twin size beds. The bathroom was tiny. We also had a patio overlooking the pool (just like the photo of the pool on their website) with tables and chairs. We really didn't spend much time inside the apartment; it was nice, not luxurious, but very clean. The place is not touristy at all; they just go about their farming business. It was very quiet (too quiet for our kids)but the hostess, Elisabeta, the only one who spoke English, was very friendly (she lent us tennis rackets, gave us two bottles of their award-winning wine; let my husband use her fax machine for Internet access, the kids got to tour the castle, etc.) <BR> <BR>I'm just looking at their pictures: the pool with the big trees and a kid on the diving board is the one next to the castle; the tennis court is the view form the patio; the other one is the one near the 10 apartments. <BR>We didn't go to Siena, but I would guess it's about 1 1/2 hours drive. <BR>As far as price: I booked directly and remember that it would have been a lot cheaper to stay a bit longer (4 nights the same as 6 nights or so). <BR> <BR>BTW, I highly recommend the Truebseehof in Engelberg. Nice location and super food. <BR> <BR>Let me know if there is any other info.

Traveler;<BR>If you are going to Austria YOU HAVE TO GO TO VIENNA!!! This city is the absolute romantic heart of Europe. It has real cafes REAL CULTURE. I guarantee you will not regret a visit to this beautiful city. If you decide to visit E-mail us for some really nice untouristy places to stay. Do not neglect the wonderful villages on the Danube either!<BR><BR>Alex and Anne Starke

Hi Traveler, how's that itinerary coming along? My only suggestion is like Patricks -- to steal a night from somewhere to add to lake Como. If you've scanned the forum, you'll know that I am absolutely wild about Switzerland, but your itiinerary sounds like a wonderful combination of beautiful places! So, as much as I cannot believe I'm saying this, I'd subtract the night from the Oberland, and just promise yourself you'll come back for a trip devoted to Switzerland some other time. Oh, one more thought that I've mentioned before -- you might look into flying into Zurich and out of Munich? Have fun planning and keep in touch. J.

Traveler,<BR><BR>The trip sounds great! You have alot of good advise. I'll throw my 2 cents in because we just completed 3 weeks in Europe on a very similar route. We were a group of 6 and did the entire trip by train. I have also tried the same trip by car and found it very difficult. The problems are too numerous to mention here, but I would be happy to share my plans, if you would be interested in an alternative to driving. Have fun planning.<BR><BR>Greg<BR>

Wonderful itinerary in my favorite part of Europe. I have some ideas to add:<BR>Get your car in Lugano--train in CH.<BR>Spend 3 nites at the Lakes.<BR>Steal time from the front and back end of the trip to add time to the Lakes and Tuscany. <BR>Fly out of Munich if you can.<BR>You have 7 great destinations here. If you drop one of them it will make your life much simpler. It is hard to decide which to drop, but I would consider dropping Venice and subsitute one nite in the Dolomites enroute to Salzburg. You only need 4 nites in the Salzburg/Bavaria segement. Let me know if you need more details. You are doing the part of Europe that is the best. I have traveled this region about ten times and love it. Hope this helps.

You do have an ambitious schedule.<BR>And Vienna is a good idea. Everyone who responds, however, is going to have a different agenda.<BR><BR>The Berner Oberland is worth 4 days only if you hike the trails. I think in 2 days you could take the various rides.<BR>I would rate 4 excursions at the top of the list. 1. the Jungfrau, 2. First, 3. the Schilthorn. 4. the M&auml;nnlichen rige.<BR>The Jungfrau mountain train trip is expensive, but it gives you a view of the Berner Oberland that is not available elsewhere. If you go, go early,because of the crowds that pile up in the afternoon. <BR>The gondola ride from Grindelwald to the First gondola station is beautiful, particularly if you combine it with a hike to the top of the Faulhorn. From there you will have the most amazing views over the lakes on ether side of Interlaken and the main range of the Berner Oberland..<BR>The trip from Stechelberg on the Luftseilbahn to the top of the Schilthorn is beautiful. But I prefer the Faulhorn. <BR> <BR>The M&auml;nnlichen is the ridge that separates Lauterbrunnen and Wengen from Grindelwald. It can be reached fron Grindewald Grund by a long gondola ride or from Lauterbrunnen by taking the train to Wengen and then continuing via a Luftseilbahn cable car to the crest of the ridge..<BR>I have done all 4 of these trips and thought they were very good. Which would I do first?? I opted for the First gondola ride with a hike to the Faulhorn.<BR>I have done that one three times and I am itching to do it again.<BR>In driving to the Italian Lakes, I hope the St Gotthard tunnel is open again after the fiery crash that killed about a dozen people a few weeks ago.<BR>If not, you will need to decide on your route. The Simplon Pass route is a logical alternative. <BR><BR>Between Venice and Salzburg, I recommend driving over the Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse. There is a good view over the glacier and the road itself is scenic. However, after Switzerland, it might seem a little tame!!<BR>Three nights in the Salzburg area should be sufficient. I think two days in the Salzburg area should enable you to see what is there. The fortress on the hill and Schloss Heilbrunn are interesting.<BR>The trick fountains in the gardens at Heilbrunn can be funny, but the guides occasionally squirt people, which might not be so funny. I was there on a rainy day, but that did not detract from the fun. I thought the sprays were well engineered and I enjoyed looking at the way the sqirting was carried out. Three nights should give you time to visit Mondsee and see the church where Maria and the Captain were married. (We went on a Sound of Money [sic] tour that gave us a choice: eat lunch OR see the church. There was not time for both!<BR>I thought the trip a rip.)<BR>I am not sure 2 nights will give you time for Venice. And 1 night for the Italian Lakes seems swift.<BR>Three days in Munich and Bavaria is cutting it close, too. I think two days in Munich are making a tight trip out of it, and that leaves you 1 days perhaps for the castles like Neuschwanstein and Linderhof.<BR>I don't really see how you can squeeze Vienna into your schedule. I like Vienna. Even after 2 visits, I could easily do a third one. But if we start listing everything you do not have time to see, we will have quite a list. <BR><BR>If I were doing it, something would give to allow more quality time in Venice, Bavaria, and the Berner Oberland.<BR>I would start with the Italian Riviera.<BR>Of course, I am not a beach person.<BR>So my view is biased. And if you are forced to satisfy the wants of 4 individuals, each of whom has a different set of preferences, you might be looking at the best compromise.<BR>Good planning!!

To: jw, Greg, Bob the Nav, Bob Brown, and etc...Wow!!! Thank you all for the great advice and ideas! I had not been on the site for a few days and was surprised to see all the new posts! I've been spending numerous hours on this itinerary and still do not have it nailed down completely. jw: What do you think of Morcote as a lake destination over Como? It has been suggested to us, and that way we could see some more of Switz. Greg: What were your problems in doing this with a car? It seems most advice I get promotes a car--esp for Tuscany, and we are thinking of other smaller towns (Hohenfurch, Mondsee, etc). Bob the Nav: We have thought of dropping Venice. The only reason to do it would be for the other couple. They have never been. The reason we had 3 nights near Salzi was because we planned on driving from Venice via Grossglockner. That would leave 1 day Salz, i day Hallstatt staying in Mondsee. Then we would drive to Hohenfurch via Dachau and etc for 2 nights. Our last night has to be in near Zurich for flight out. Dielsdorf has been suggested to us. Bob Brown and others: We now arrive in Zurich at noon instead of the pm, so perhaps 3 nights would be ok. Is that really enough to enjoy the area? Is the Gotthard Tunnel the short cut? Is there a longer route sans the tunnel in the same vicinity? <BR><BR>There are so many possibilities..Do either of these sound better?<BR>

Sorry...looks like I got too long. By the way, after we arrive in Zurich, the 3 nights I mention is in the BO as opposed to 4. Other possibilities:<BR> 3 nights BO<BR> 2 nights Lakes (Morcote?)<BR> 2 nights Cinque Terre (relatives)<BR> 3 nights Tusc<BR> 2 nights Venice<BR> 3 nights Salz (mondsee)<BR> 2 nights Hohenfurch<BR> 1 night Dielsdorf Or:<BR><BR> 3 nts BO<BR> 2 Lake<BR> 2 CT<BR> 4 Tusc<BR> 3 Sals (Mondsee)<BR> 3 Hohenfurch<BR> 1 Diesldorf <BR>What do you experts think? Are we moving around just way too much?? Thank you all! You're great!<BR>

Hi Traveler, Morcote is beautiful! I have to say that again: Morcote is beautiful! Blue-green lake, flowers, handsome arcaded buildings along the shore with stepped alley-ways climbing the hillside to a lovely church at the top. I was there in June a couple of years ago, and it reminded me of the film, "Enchanted April"(filmed near Positano) just because of the landscape and the ever-changing views as we made our way up to Santa Maria del Sasso -- we passed little gates behind which flowered walkways led to what we supposed were private homes -- Oh, and did I mention the cemetery? A magnificent cemetery near the church. Now, the best reason for staying there two nights is that you can drive away to explore during the day (when all the tour buses and lakeboats bring crowds), and maybe have the little town to yourself in the early mornings and evenings. I want to applaude two other little places you mentioned: Halstatt and Dielsdorf. Halstatt, another little place perched on the shore of a gorgeous lake, is lovely, and nothing like Morcote -- you'll love the contrast and have a difficult time deciding which one you prefer (come to think of it, it has a fascinating church and cemetery, too). (And if you are into pre-history, Halstatt's the place; see its museum). Dielsdorf is convenient to the Zurich airport and has a little walled town nearby (Regensberg). I've heard good things about the Hotel Loewen (loewen-dielsdorf.ch). Let me close by saying that both of your most recent itineraries sound good to me. I usually try to plan a minimum of three nights in a place, but given your choices, I don't think I'd want to leave out any -- especially if this is a once-in-a-lifetime trip for anyone in your party. How could they be so close and not see Venice? I don't suppose there might be a nice place to settle in somewhere between Venice and Florence that would permit you to day-trip in both directions so you could combine Venice and Tuscany? (I'm not an Italy expert and I only have Swiss maps near me, so I do beg your pardon -- all you people who are probably choking as you read this. This is brainstorming, right? No idea too far out.) Please continue to keep us posted as you plan. It sounds like an absolute winner of a trip (but rest up before, exercise to build strength, and take plenty of vitamins and maybe a 6-pack of Boost before you go). J.

I like your first revised itinerary above. However, Morcote is beautiful but I would consider staying at the quaint Hotel Stella d' Italia in San Mamete halfway between Lugano and Lake Como for better access. And, I would still not get my car until Lugano. You will not need it in BO and the trip to the Lakes is easier by train. I have done that twice and it works.<BR>You have done your homework--I like the Hallstatt/Wolgangsee segment as well. Do you have a location picked for CT?.<BR>What about Tuscany? This will be a great trip--you are close to perfection

With the holidays and all, I thought I'd bring this back up again. Thanks to all of you guys! I appreciate your expertise and can't wait until the adventure begins!