bilboburgler

brookums, if I was doing this trip, I would avoid being part of a tour group. If you look back at tourist attacks they normally happen against large groups rather than couples, so the two big attacks in Egypt three years ago were tour groups.

Hope that helps. I would be less attracted to a large ship for the same reason. When I used to be involved in supplying very large equipment to the travel world we had two tests of safety

1) If this went wrong would a large group of Americans die
2) If this went wrong would a small number of American congressmen or senators die.

2) was always the higher test and we avoided it like the plague

APBaron

brookums-go to Turkey with your husband. It's a terrific country and deserves all the attention you have time for. I wish I'd had more time last month--our travels took us to Izmir, Konak by ferry, Selcuk, Sirence and Ephesus by private car and driver, Istanbul by Onur airline, and then we did some other traveling around too! We felt completely safe and hopped on and off trams, trains, and buses the whole trip, easy-peasy. The world is great big and beautiful. Go see Turkey and Paris and all the other places you want to go -- danger and random acts of terror can catch you anywhere, at anytime at all. You can't plan for trouble and you can't win the game of "Whack-A-Mole". Yes, you should stay out of active war zones, otherwise, enjoy yourself and see Turkey like you planned.

otherchelebi

There were too many changes in the last five days:

1. The extent of IS entrenchment and mobilization in belgium and France poses questions regarding other Western European country circumstances.

United Kingdom generally has a better rein on religious and sectarian activities in the country, but, then, they have as big or bigger pool of religious adherents from whom IS can recruit.

Also, reprisals from the extreme right as well as panic and riots result of unfounded fear may also be cause of safety concerns in Europe.

Is either has not officially designated Turkey as a target as they have done Western Europe and United States, or the media censors any related news.

If it were only Is, I would probably advise concern and strong caution against traveling to any European and Middle Eastern country.

Turkey has the advantage of strong security force experience in dealing with extremists. It seems that Turkish intelligence has infiltrated IS in general and all known radical fundamentalist, nationalist and leftist groups within Turkey. It is also quite probable that the Turkish government has used members of these groups to unknowingly carry out political assasinations, violent riots, ethnic attacks, and similar activities, currently and in the past 65 years.

2. The bigger threat to safety lies in the new development regarding the downing of the Russian Fighter by Turkish jets.

I just cannot see Putin letting bygones be bygones, especially after a lack of communication to him by the Turkish president and prime minister. Instead of the apology, Turkish leaders immediately called NATO, United States and Merkel, possibly to ask for back-up in case the Russian response is also military.

Russia is Turkey's second or third larges economic-commercial partner. Turkey depends heavily on Russian natural gas and Russian tourists bring about one Billion USD of currency to Turkey every year. Putin already asked Russian citizens not to visit Turkey and the major Russian tour operator cancelled all tours.

Russian intelligence activity would unfortunately also involve use of radical movements in other countries and a violent reprisal against Turkey could easily be formulated by those means without incurring NATO, EU or US wrath.

The flight in from Venice today was the emptiest Turkish airlines flight we have taken in a very long time.

I will post about the Russian situation regularly, hoping that the worst can be a cold Winter with restricted heating. (Our Iznik home has a good design with two blow wents, one for the living room and one for the upstairs. We also have very expensive diesel run central heating and one standby mobile electric heater for the 740 feet tiny home.)

Next, a few words on Venice trip

otherchelebi

I should start with our breaking an almost Phileas Fog record in one day.

We dragged our heavy carry-ons almost half a mile and over three bridges with looming steps, starting at 9 AM.

- At 9:20 we took the Number 1 vaporetto on the Grand Canal to the end of the line for the bus.

- We made it to the 10:00 bus No.5 to San Marco Airport.

- We had three hours to aid the Italian duty free shop and airport bar owners. The only enjoyable activity was wine tasting at a stand manned by a young lady with a good sense of humor. We both loved the "Conti D'Agostino." However she kept on giving us little sips rather than a nice full glass although we said many times (especially Eser) that the tiny sips were not enough to allow us to get a feeling for the brand.

- The flight was on time, comfortable, with the usual decent Turkish airline food. The only slightly unpleasant experince was that I noticed one cabinet attendent had not made good use of a deodorant. It also raced for a 20 minute early touch down.

- We lost that 20 minute advantage because DD the Elder called to ask for some mascara and lip gloss from the incoming duty free. (Turkey is one of the few countries with large incoming duty free shops at all big airports)

- Eser checked our land route home on Yandex and it seemed mostly green, so we took a taxi. Apparently Yandex maps were manipulated by the taxi rank at SAW airport and the whole motorway changed to red after initial 15 miles. So we reached an amicable agreement with the cab driver and took the first available exit to Kartal, which is the end of the longest Istanbul subway line.

- A few minutes of waiting and we were on route to Kadikoy ferry landing. Our underground trip took 42 minutes, but we took the wrong exit and had to walk a quarter of a mile to the Kabatas ferry leaving at 18:00.

- At 18:30 the janitor of our building picked us up with my car, at the ferry landing in exchange for three days off that he needed to go to his village to bring his mother.

So in one day, we walked a total of a mile or more, took a vaporetto, a bus, a flight, a taxi, a subway, a ferry and a private car to reach our home in Istanbul, starting at Venice, Italy.

bilboburgler

Putin seems to have a few too many irons in the fire at the moment and may lash out in frustration.

Was Venice ok in November, Mrs B went and shivered in a garret for a week of Italian training a few years back.

annhig

Sorry that your homecoming was so difficult, OC, but glad you are home safe and sound.

As ever your comments on the current situation are interesting and informative. Thank you. If anything I was surprised at how mild Putin's response was; you may well be right that he is biding his time. They were saying today that the encroachment of the border lasted only 17 seconds - hardly worth upsetting one of ones biggest economic partner for, I'd have thought.

sandralist

Recent events underscore what a bad idea it would be to attempt to enforce a no-fly zone precisely in the area where the Russian plane was shot down. Hillary Clinton is pushing this (maintaining her unbroken record of bad ideas for the region.)

otherchelebi

Unfortunately, Turkish president announced his refusal to make a formal apology.

Immediate consquences were the detainment of 60 Turkish businessmen flying to Moscow to visit a fair. news is that they will be kept in isolation at Sochi for 7-10 days and then deported.

Lorries with Turkish plates or Turkish drivers are not allowed to cross into Russia through Ukrain or Georgia. Those carrying fresh produce, dairy products and flowers have turned back after waiting upto eighteen hours.

Russian minister of the Economy stated that there would be reprisals but did not give specifics.

All flights and tours from Russia to resort towns in Turkey have been cancelled.

The comments of many readers to these stories on the internet show incredible ignorance. many, possibly blind supporters of the Turkish leader, say that Turkey does not need Russia either for natural gas (50% of annual consumption) or as a buyer of Turkish products/ Some go as far as saying the Turkish armed forces can handle a Russian attack easily.

There are even those who write that Turkey should close the Bosphorus and Dardannelles straits to all Russian shipping.

In the meantime, the journalists who managed to get copies of the court investigation regarding Turkish trucks carrying arms to Syria secretly under guise of humanitarian aid, with photographs of opened crates displaying rockets, ammunition, etc., are being arrested for aiding and abetting terrorism, espionage and working against the Republic of Turkey.

And, the Turkish security forces continue with marshall law and curfews at Southeastern cities. Last one was Nusaybin where the subjects (not citizens!) were imprisoned in their homes for thirteen days with no running water, electricity, food and mediacal assistance.

So, what can Russia do that is worse than what the Turkish government is doing?

Photographs of streets of these towns after the curfew remind me of Budapest, with walls riddled with bullet holes, some eight years after the Hungarian uprising.

Let us hope that some goodwill, sanity and compassion prevails with the illogical, insane, violent, ignorant groups, forces and leaders of this world so that we can continue our "pursuit of happiness" through traveling, friendship and understanding the good and the great of all the terrific cultures and places of this globe)

Croesus

"All flights and tours from Russia to resort towns in Turkey have been cancelled"

That's going to hit the tourism industry. I heard that Turkey has been subsidising Russian charter flights this year to bring them in.

Poor old Ivan is running out of places to go on holiday!

bilboburgler

still got north Korea

crusty

bilboburgler
Have you ever experienced a hamam? I am intrigued.

bilboburgler

crusty,

I must have missed (or forgotten) any of my comments about hammam (I think hamam was in the Book of Esther but it is a small book and as one ages one forgets)

still yes (but not in Turkey)

also hot pools in Turkey/Iceland/Azores/New Zealand/Hungary

and Saunas in Finland/Canada/Azores/Iceland/UK

while squat loos in Morocco/Paris/a michelin 2* restaurant in the Jura and on a Japanese train (was it really a bullet train 35 years ago).

Feet washed in a Mosque in France and Syria.

Perhaps we should have an ablutions thread?

Anyway have a lovely day, the season of Climate change stimulated storms is now well upon my little town in Yorkshire today, let us hope that our leaders make something out of the coming talks in Paris in the coming weeks.

Have a great day, the worst thing is fear, the best thing is to dispel it.

lauramsgarden

OC - glad you are safely home and hope your trip was great. Sick at heart to hear of all the chaos and violence that seems to get worse by the day (and please Sandralist - let's not go political on Fodors) - grateful to those of you everywhere "on the ground" who can give us your personal insights into what is happening.

sandralist

Interesting to me, but someone living in Turkey would know better about the quality of the analysis

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...sultan-turkey/

(lauraamsgarden,

US foreign policy and the behaviour of the Obama administration is not irrelevant to this thread, and has been mentioned in earlier posts by the author. No sacred cows.)

otherchelebi

There is a book called "Why intelligent People Do Stupid Things"

Unfortunately, there is no book calle "Why All people Do Stupid Things."

Either way, the answers have more to do with "perception" rather than thought.

Whether is is Erdogan or Obama or Hilary or Putin or Trump, their thought processes leading to stupid conclusions and/or actions are due to problems with their assumptions, observations and perceptions, and even possibly convoluted effects of their instincts on their analytical judgements.

Sandralist, the article you mention is well written and gives a true picture of Erdogan and his party. However, the author has probably been influenced if not controled by what the American policy makers like to call "moderate islam" meaning the Gulen movement.

It is very clear that Erdogan worked with the Gulen movement hand in hand if not hand in pocket from 1994 till 2012. For a long time this was a marriage made on the good side of the Pearly Gates. In the process, the Gulen movement infiltrated the security forces the judiciary, AKP, the army, the Ministry of Education and the government universities. Their methods were based on successful social engineering and a the author points out, the voting public was very well lead propagandized.

The issue between AKP/Erdogan and the Gulen Movement started when the movement decided that Erdogan's and his minions' greed for more power and wealth was about to cause the movement's own downfall as well as that of AKP.

For the common people and the liberals this was a boon. However, the AKP/Erdogan had learned well from Gulen to falsify evidence, to assume guilty until proven innocent utilizing drummed up charges, to control the judiciary, the army and the security forces. So they started using the same methods not only against the movement and commercial/industrial supporters of Gulen bu to all of their real and imaginary opponents and critics.

International Politics and Diplomacy is precarious tightrope walking between truth and falsehood, between national interest and international goodwill, between domestic consumption and international advantage, between stability and chaos.

Unfortunately this is not the 15th Century and the players are not "Prince"s as defined by Nicola Macchiavelli although many consider themselves to be "The Prince"

bilboburgler

Recent plays by the President have shown that you can get to a pivot point where you can accelerate access to EU membership if you.... see all of above

Given that Romania and Bulgaria both had to do stuff about their corruption as part of the negotiation for entry (on going in both and clearly successful in Romania) what is the chance that Turkey (ancient owner of Bulgaria and Romania) will have to go through the same?

Niente/Nada just about covers it.

sandralist

Thanks, otherchelabi, for the added insight into the Gulen movement.

Agree with everything you say about the overall problems with "world leaders" everywhere in the world, pretty much at any moment, although at this particular moment, it appears we are in a real trough when it comes to elected leaders in the US and Europe with curiosity, boldness, leadership qualities. (Pope Frances, of all people, runs circles around all of them!)

I also think it is particularly unhelpful that America has produced so many people with zero understanding of history (and even less willingness to read some books) and a stubborn belief in the idea that the "bad guys" of the world can be wiped out and conquered in the way that Europeans wiped out and conquered native American Indians on the north American continent. Incredible as it is, huge numbers of Americans -- maybe even the majority -- really do not understand why genocidal policies cannot be enacted against the rest of the world that doesn't agree with the American way of life. They cannot grasp that numbers alone don't make this possible. And they don't seem to have a plan B, or any willingness to reduce their consumption of Middle Eastern oil.

These are, of course, not the only mistakes being made, and America is not alone in making mistakes, but this ignorance of the real world -- even regarding the simplest of facts -- is disheartening, especially when backed up with a near infinite supply of high tech lethal weaponry that accomplishes nothing but increasing the number of people who hate the West.

bilboburgler

"or any willingness to reduce their consumption of Middle Eastern oil"

I think you'll find they have.... which kinda explains the oil price at the moment

yestravel

OC- I just saw in the news that there has been an explosion in an IST metro. I hope you and Eser are ok. I am so sorry to hear about more violence in our world.
Take care

otherchelebi

Thank you yestravel,
That was a small explosion which slightly injured one person and does not appear to have been related to any terrorist action.

We just came back from istiklal after having dinner with a group of twelve friends from Iznik and the streets were as busy as usual with most shops still open after 10 PM.