Visiting Turkey for Fun and Adventure, Oasis or Chaos
Feb 21st, 2016, 02:50 PM
#242
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OC, have you read this from The Economist. I am half-way through it. Would be interested to see what you think from an insider point of view.
http://www.economist.com/printedition/specialreports
http://www.economist.com/printedition/specialreports
Feb 22nd, 2016, 01:03 AM
#243
gertie, thanks.
I already read this.
His analysis of current situation is quite good.
He does not have enough information on background and recent history of Turkey.
Turkey came out of the closet in 1983 and started an incredible liberalization move. This increased exports by multiples, allowed more imports, gave a big nudge for local industry and of'course made Turkish Lira fully convertible.
In mid 1990's there were economic problems due to mismanagement by the old leaders winning back into power, but the coalition of late 1990's allowing World Bank and IMF to advise Turkish economic and financial policy through a newly appointed, ecperienced economist, Kemal Dervis (former head of UNDP) put Turkey back on the right track.
Erdogan just continued to apply the same strategic plan started by the previous government.
His success was based on four major factors :
- Absolute United States backing with an army of American advisors handling a social engineering program for Turkey.
- Huge amounts of Islamist funds arriving from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf to assist the party and Erdogan in making Turkey an Islamic country.
- A much more accessible health plan, providing access to health care to previously disenfranchised populations.
- A huge project of providing coal, white goods & staple food items in the form of hand-outs. This reached very high levels in election years, but still continues.
Erdogan had already had training as an Islamic preacher. He was taught body language, voice effects and other factors which would show him as a charismatic leader in Turkey as part of the United States plan.
Erdogan's speeches and sermons were written by a well trained group of nameless people.
Part of this plan was conducted through Fethullah Gulen group activities.
However, Erdogan became too big for his breaches, starting about 2011-2012, and decided that he did not need any more trainig or advice, especially when the advice included warnings against his greed for more money and power.
When FG group activites increased against the army which the United States was not happy with and some of the media in 2008, Erdogan applauded and helped. However, FG power among the judiciary, the security forces and some Ministries like the Ministry of Education became apparent to Erdogan in 2011 and the fact that he had to share the power and the ensuing wealth with Gulen and his supporters became anathema.
Erdogan's reaction to Gulen forced Gulen to show his hand which they did by trying to arrest the most important Erdogan supporter, director of Turkish Intelligence. When this was not successful and Erdogan attacked back by tryin to close thousands of Gulen educational institutions and foundations in in Turkey, Gulen came up with illegal wire taps showing how Erdogan, his family and four of his close Ministers had been receiving bribes from Iranian sources and from some suddenly very rich group of Turkish businesmen. These wire taps were made public on national and social media. This made FG group and related businesses public enemy number one. Illegal activity, just like previously carried out by the Gulen Group, including false evidence, etc. are now fully in force against Gulen and his supporters. All Gulen TVs, almost all Newspapers and many fully functioning businesses have been expropriated by the government for aiding and abetting FG.
United States, I think rather dumbly, continued to believe that they could still deal best with Erdogan in the absence of any other candidate they could identify as friendly to US and capable. This was and is a mistake. It made Erdogan even more cocky, thinking that the United States needed him and would back anything he did, including curtailing human rights, verbally and physically attacking all neighbours, openly supporting A-Qaeda partners in Syria and secretly supporting Isis, and shooting down a Russian bomber which had crossed invaded a tiny piece of Turkish airspace for 12-17 seconds.
Erdogan has the same myopia that culturally exists in peoples with strong nomadic heritage who have difficulty in visualizing the future and thinking in time dimensional cause-effect relationships.
In the last four years he made large ethnic, ideological and religious groups hate each other in Tukey, opening a wasp's hive by his hate speeches and uncurtailed violent policies and actions.
The prime minister of Turkey acts as the cartoon character Iznogoud, and even lloks like him. We may find out the result of this struggle sooner than the readers of the cartoon found.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iznogoud-Vol.../dp/1905460791
http://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/JAN094089
http://www.cinebook.co.uk/product_in...oducts_id=4011
I already read this.
His analysis of current situation is quite good.
He does not have enough information on background and recent history of Turkey.
Turkey came out of the closet in 1983 and started an incredible liberalization move. This increased exports by multiples, allowed more imports, gave a big nudge for local industry and of'course made Turkish Lira fully convertible.
In mid 1990's there were economic problems due to mismanagement by the old leaders winning back into power, but the coalition of late 1990's allowing World Bank and IMF to advise Turkish economic and financial policy through a newly appointed, ecperienced economist, Kemal Dervis (former head of UNDP) put Turkey back on the right track.
Erdogan just continued to apply the same strategic plan started by the previous government.
His success was based on four major factors :
- Absolute United States backing with an army of American advisors handling a social engineering program for Turkey.
- Huge amounts of Islamist funds arriving from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf to assist the party and Erdogan in making Turkey an Islamic country.
- A much more accessible health plan, providing access to health care to previously disenfranchised populations.
- A huge project of providing coal, white goods & staple food items in the form of hand-outs. This reached very high levels in election years, but still continues.
Erdogan had already had training as an Islamic preacher. He was taught body language, voice effects and other factors which would show him as a charismatic leader in Turkey as part of the United States plan.
Erdogan's speeches and sermons were written by a well trained group of nameless people.
Part of this plan was conducted through Fethullah Gulen group activities.
However, Erdogan became too big for his breaches, starting about 2011-2012, and decided that he did not need any more trainig or advice, especially when the advice included warnings against his greed for more money and power.
When FG group activites increased against the army which the United States was not happy with and some of the media in 2008, Erdogan applauded and helped. However, FG power among the judiciary, the security forces and some Ministries like the Ministry of Education became apparent to Erdogan in 2011 and the fact that he had to share the power and the ensuing wealth with Gulen and his supporters became anathema.
Erdogan's reaction to Gulen forced Gulen to show his hand which they did by trying to arrest the most important Erdogan supporter, director of Turkish Intelligence. When this was not successful and Erdogan attacked back by tryin to close thousands of Gulen educational institutions and foundations in in Turkey, Gulen came up with illegal wire taps showing how Erdogan, his family and four of his close Ministers had been receiving bribes from Iranian sources and from some suddenly very rich group of Turkish businesmen. These wire taps were made public on national and social media. This made FG group and related businesses public enemy number one. Illegal activity, just like previously carried out by the Gulen Group, including false evidence, etc. are now fully in force against Gulen and his supporters. All Gulen TVs, almost all Newspapers and many fully functioning businesses have been expropriated by the government for aiding and abetting FG.
United States, I think rather dumbly, continued to believe that they could still deal best with Erdogan in the absence of any other candidate they could identify as friendly to US and capable. This was and is a mistake. It made Erdogan even more cocky, thinking that the United States needed him and would back anything he did, including curtailing human rights, verbally and physically attacking all neighbours, openly supporting A-Qaeda partners in Syria and secretly supporting Isis, and shooting down a Russian bomber which had crossed invaded a tiny piece of Turkish airspace for 12-17 seconds.
Erdogan has the same myopia that culturally exists in peoples with strong nomadic heritage who have difficulty in visualizing the future and thinking in time dimensional cause-effect relationships.
In the last four years he made large ethnic, ideological and religious groups hate each other in Tukey, opening a wasp's hive by his hate speeches and uncurtailed violent policies and actions.
The prime minister of Turkey acts as the cartoon character Iznogoud, and even lloks like him. We may find out the result of this struggle sooner than the readers of the cartoon found.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iznogoud-Vol.../dp/1905460791
http://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/JAN094089
http://www.cinebook.co.uk/product_in...oducts_id=4011
Feb 24th, 2016, 12:53 PM
#245
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> I don't blame the major national non-governmental newspaper for exercising absolute auto-censorship, news and opinion, but will stop buying.
(Hurriyet)
Yes, I've noticed this. I've been a reader of the English web version of Hürriyet for a while now - http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ - I like their archaeology page.
I sometimes glance at Zaman, and once in a while Sabah. I'm sorry to see a free press disappearing in Turkey. Perhaps if 50% of the country were to insult the president, then something might change. (Slightly amused, on a domestic level, by a husband reporting his wife to the authorities for doing that).
(Hurriyet)
Yes, I've noticed this. I've been a reader of the English web version of Hürriyet for a while now - http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ - I like their archaeology page.
I sometimes glance at Zaman, and once in a while Sabah. I'm sorry to see a free press disappearing in Turkey. Perhaps if 50% of the country were to insult the president, then something might change. (Slightly amused, on a domestic level, by a husband reporting his wife to the authorities for doing that).
Feb 24th, 2016, 01:51 PM
#246
or this one:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/for...&NewsCatID=509
[if we applied this rule in the UK, half of Parliament would be in jug, including a lot of David Cameron's own party].
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/for...&NewsCatID=509
[if we applied this rule in the UK, half of Parliament would be in jug, including a lot of David Cameron's own party].
Feb 24th, 2016, 02:15 PM
#247
Zaman is owned by Fettullah Guven group.
Sabah is owned by an Erdogan friend. So are many others.
Hurriyet group is one of two or three independent groups but are forced into a corner. Currently, there is only one truely outspoken columnist left at Hurriyet.
The English version is slightly better because they can probably get away because the Erdogan media watchers do not understand English well.
Hakan Sukur was and is a Fettullah Guven follower which automatically makes him an enemy of State. He is the parliamentarian who responded, "Our leaders know best, so ask them instead of me," when asked to give an opinion on a simple political or economic issue during his second or third year as a deputy.
Sabah is owned by an Erdogan friend. So are many others.
Hurriyet group is one of two or three independent groups but are forced into a corner. Currently, there is only one truely outspoken columnist left at Hurriyet.
The English version is slightly better because they can probably get away because the Erdogan media watchers do not understand English well.
Hakan Sukur was and is a Fettullah Guven follower which automatically makes him an enemy of State. He is the parliamentarian who responded, "Our leaders know best, so ask them instead of me," when asked to give an opinion on a simple political or economic issue during his second or third year as a deputy.
Feb 24th, 2016, 02:22 PM
#248
I do not mean to alarm anyone planning to visit Istanbul or Ankara in th very near future, but there is a copy of an official looking letter from the governor of Istanbul, unofficiallygoing around the social media, advising readers to beware of crowded places, Malls and especially the Metro and the metro bus stations and stops.
The note does not give source but says the threat could be from vehicles or people on foot.
The fact that the target appears to be civilian population points to IS rather than a Kurdish group.
Seems that the youth Erdogan promised to educate and train as "believers and avengers" some five years ago at a number of speeches are now ready to carry out their own agenda.
The note does not give source but says the threat could be from vehicles or people on foot.
The fact that the target appears to be civilian population points to IS rather than a Kurdish group.
Seems that the youth Erdogan promised to educate and train as "believers and avengers" some five years ago at a number of speeches are now ready to carry out their own agenda.
Feb 26th, 2016, 12:16 AM
#249
Hi OC
I met up with my Swiss group last night and we are all still raving about our time in Istanbul. I truly believe many in the group returned to Switzerland with a different attitude towards Turkey and Muslims in general. Our tour guide was tremendous and your hospitality was unequaled.
Thanks again, OC!
I met up with my Swiss group last night and we are all still raving about our time in Istanbul. I truly believe many in the group returned to Switzerland with a different attitude towards Turkey and Muslims in general. Our tour guide was tremendous and your hospitality was unequaled.
Thanks again, OC!
Feb 26th, 2016, 01:20 AM
#250
Kleeblat, thanks for reminding me of my Swiss friends. I can still visualize most of them sitting around our table.
BTW, I am still waiting for the great luck your four leaf clovers will bring me. Maybe you can find a few more this Spring and dedicate those to me from Switzerland. Their combination with my "Monkey Year" should do the trick.
BTW, I am still waiting for the great luck your four leaf clovers will bring me. Maybe you can find a few more this Spring and dedicate those to me from Switzerland. Their combination with my "Monkey Year" should do the trick.
Feb 26th, 2016, 02:10 AM
#252
Thanks, Whathello
The immediate warning has been lifted with the discovery of the fourth and last stolen vehicle purchased by suspected bombers.
Scary that the car was discovered at a parking lot at Bosphorus University, where I teach. But not close to the building where I teach or the parking lot I use.
It is always a good idea, though, to stay away from government, security and diplomatic buildings.
The immediate warning has been lifted with the discovery of the fourth and last stolen vehicle purchased by suspected bombers.
Scary that the car was discovered at a parking lot at Bosphorus University, where I teach. But not close to the building where I teach or the parking lot I use.
It is always a good idea, though, to stay away from government, security and diplomatic buildings.
Feb 28th, 2016, 11:29 AM
#253
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Ahmet...so many of our Fodorites are thankful for your informative help in these troubled times. I thank you for what it's worth. Just don't p--- off the lunatic fringe at the "Midnight Express Hotel"...and in the words of the immortal Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead.....
keep on truckin' !!
stu
keep on truckin' !!
stu
Mar 7th, 2016, 06:07 PM
#255
Things just seem to get worse:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/op...in-turkey.html
I suppose there's no hope of getting rid of Erdogan any time soon. Ever?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/op...in-turkey.html
I suppose there's no hope of getting rid of Erdogan any time soon. Ever?
Mar 8th, 2016, 01:40 AM
#257
It is developing as I forecast 21 years ago, a few months before the local elections, when I saw that Erdogan would win and become mayor of Istanbul.
He and his party use the standard format of "Enemies abroad and Enermies in the country" story rather too successfully, appealing to God, motherhood, country, (but not apple pie.)
The last objective daily newspaper, Hurriyet has also bowed to their threats and fired all but one of their critical columnists.
This group, Dogan, has also ended two more of their daily news and current event programs on CNNTurk last week and replaced one with a "fads and fashions" program and the other with a "Recent social events and arts" program.
Now, I have to depend on information I can get on Twitter and other internet sites.
Just last Sunday, the police attacked women marching for women's day in Istanbul, with plastic bullets, pepper gas and water cannon. And, just now, he is speaking about respect for women, urging his supporters to accept and treat women who do not cover their heads as equals!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ten years ago women with covered heads could not work for public institutions or attend school because head covering was seen as a political symbol of fundamentalist Islam, because the Koran says nothing specific about women being required to cover their heads.
Unfortunately almost all Islamic countries interpret some of the dubious sayings of the prophet and a verse of the Koran, which says, women should cover up their precious things, possibly meaning jewelery, as a requirement to cover up totally since men see women as property and do not like them to be displayed except as slaves at auctions.
He and his party use the standard format of "Enemies abroad and Enermies in the country" story rather too successfully, appealing to God, motherhood, country, (but not apple pie.)
The last objective daily newspaper, Hurriyet has also bowed to their threats and fired all but one of their critical columnists.
This group, Dogan, has also ended two more of their daily news and current event programs on CNNTurk last week and replaced one with a "fads and fashions" program and the other with a "Recent social events and arts" program.
Now, I have to depend on information I can get on Twitter and other internet sites.
Just last Sunday, the police attacked women marching for women's day in Istanbul, with plastic bullets, pepper gas and water cannon. And, just now, he is speaking about respect for women, urging his supporters to accept and treat women who do not cover their heads as equals!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ten years ago women with covered heads could not work for public institutions or attend school because head covering was seen as a political symbol of fundamentalist Islam, because the Koran says nothing specific about women being required to cover their heads.
Unfortunately almost all Islamic countries interpret some of the dubious sayings of the prophet and a verse of the Koran, which says, women should cover up their precious things, possibly meaning jewelery, as a requirement to cover up totally since men see women as property and do not like them to be displayed except as slaves at auctions.
Mar 8th, 2016, 07:38 AM
#258
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...r-no?CMP=fb_gu
So what do you think about this OC? Not looking good.
So what do you think about this OC? Not looking good.
Mar 8th, 2016, 08:48 AM
#259
Paul Mason does not have all his facts straight,
But I do not believe Turkey will become an EU member in the near future, at least till Erdogan and his party disappear from the scene and islamist lose any majority they may have.
Currently, there is some negotiation leading to an exemption of Schengen visas for Turks to start in June, but EU countries are as wise if not wiser than Turkish Islamists and will know how to handle this as well as further demands by AKP which the Turks may use for local political purposes, either to show some EU countries as enemies or others as friends.
All I see in the recent negotiations with EU, Germany and Greece, is a great deal of hypocrisy, subterfuge, outright lying and sly handshakes, signifying nothing. This is definitely not diplomacy as it used to be, but fits the new world scheme.
But I do not believe Turkey will become an EU member in the near future, at least till Erdogan and his party disappear from the scene and islamist lose any majority they may have.
Currently, there is some negotiation leading to an exemption of Schengen visas for Turks to start in June, but EU countries are as wise if not wiser than Turkish Islamists and will know how to handle this as well as further demands by AKP which the Turks may use for local political purposes, either to show some EU countries as enemies or others as friends.
All I see in the recent negotiations with EU, Germany and Greece, is a great deal of hypocrisy, subterfuge, outright lying and sly handshakes, signifying nothing. This is definitely not diplomacy as it used to be, but fits the new world scheme.
Mar 8th, 2016, 09:08 AM
#260
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...021149403.html
This just in from Aljazeera.
It mainly deals with refugees but also mentions Turkish citizens being allowed to travel to Schengen without a visa.
As us Brits are not part of Schengen and may not even be part of EU by end of June, I guess it won't affect me and I will need my electronic visa as usual!
This just in from Aljazeera.
It mainly deals with refugees but also mentions Turkish citizens being allowed to travel to Schengen without a visa.
As us Brits are not part of Schengen and may not even be part of EU by end of June, I guess it won't affect me and I will need my electronic visa as usual!
