Vienna subway warning
Apr 5th, 2016, 11:54 AM
#21
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PalenQ, why are you raging against Vienna?
Did you choke on a piece of Sachertorte?
Any city in Europe is strict against black riders (I recently watched American tourists caught without valid tickets on a vaporetto in Venice - they were treated without humour).
There is plenty of information that you have to validate your tickets in validating machines which are hanging everywhere. E.g. here on the web:
http://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/...annelId/-47643
And they have brochures which explain how you punch your ticket to validate it:
http://www.wienerlinien.at/media/fil...web_129361.pdf
And EVERY guidebook has a chapter on public transport and how it works.
Conclusion: If you have made a mistake, apologize and be silent and do not complain here on this forum.
Did you choke on a piece of Sachertorte?
Any city in Europe is strict against black riders (I recently watched American tourists caught without valid tickets on a vaporetto in Venice - they were treated without humour).
There is plenty of information that you have to validate your tickets in validating machines which are hanging everywhere. E.g. here on the web:
http://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/...annelId/-47643
And they have brochures which explain how you punch your ticket to validate it:
http://www.wienerlinien.at/media/fil...web_129361.pdf
And EVERY guidebook has a chapter on public transport and how it works.
Conclusion: If you have made a mistake, apologize and be silent and do not complain here on this forum.
Apr 5th, 2016, 11:56 AM
#22
PalenQ, when have you last visited Vienna? And what is the basis for your comment that, "you will not be given a break as in many other places in Europe?"
We have lived here in Vienna for nearly four years, and routinely visit our neighbors. Never, ever, would I not spend the 10 minutes or so to figure out how to use their transit systems. It is a shame that you believe others should be "given a break" for their slack behavior.
We have lived here in Vienna for nearly four years, and routinely visit our neighbors. Never, ever, would I not spend the 10 minutes or so to figure out how to use their transit systems. It is a shame that you believe others should be "given a break" for their slack behavior.
Apr 5th, 2016, 12:04 PM
#23
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The difference here is that they had what they thought were valid tickets - not no tickets at all like your Venice example - be careful how you use the word "black"- could be Black people.
It just seems that when these things come up it is the tourist who thought they were doing the right thing, not trying to scam the system that everyone piles on without even sympathizing with them - you can say that a bit more gently like:
"I sympathize with your troubles but...:instead of instantly scolding them and denigrating them and more pile on - like a Rugby scrum, calling them criminals who should pay dearly for their crimes that they did not know they even were committing.
Enough said - rant on about what idiots they were...
Just seems so many get caught in Vienna as evidenced by several such posts during the last year or so yet few from other places.
Even Europeans can make such mistakes - two of my French friends - older folks who should have known better went to Basel and they saw everyone boarding trams without any tickets so they just hopped on too and came back and told me that 'the trams in Basel were free'(in fact they could have gotten a transit pass from their hotel it seems)- now that ignorance merits a fine because everyone knows that there is no free ride but in this case they had bought tickets - just the wrong ones.
It just seems that when these things come up it is the tourist who thought they were doing the right thing, not trying to scam the system that everyone piles on without even sympathizing with them - you can say that a bit more gently like:
"I sympathize with your troubles but...:instead of instantly scolding them and denigrating them and more pile on - like a Rugby scrum, calling them criminals who should pay dearly for their crimes that they did not know they even were committing.
Enough said - rant on about what idiots they were...
Just seems so many get caught in Vienna as evidenced by several such posts during the last year or so yet few from other places.
Even Europeans can make such mistakes - two of my French friends - older folks who should have known better went to Basel and they saw everyone boarding trams without any tickets so they just hopped on too and came back and told me that 'the trams in Basel were free'(in fact they could have gotten a transit pass from their hotel it seems)- now that ignorance merits a fine because everyone knows that there is no free ride but in this case they had bought tickets - just the wrong ones.
Apr 5th, 2016, 12:19 PM
#25
>>rant on about what idiots they were…<<
No one said they were idiots . . . until <i>you</i> brought it up
Mistakes are made -- no big deal. It is the notion that 'we tourists are special' that jumps out. . . .
No one said they were idiots . . . until <i>you</i> brought it up
Mistakes are made -- no big deal. It is the notion that 'we tourists are special' that jumps out. . . .
Apr 5th, 2016, 12:26 PM
#26
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Well, "you live and learn". It seems there is little doubt we were in the wrong and expected too much. Thank you all for your input. This helps me readjust my thinking. In spite of this, Vienna was wonderful and we do plan on returning.
Apr 5th, 2016, 12:40 PM
#28
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No one said they were idiots . . . until you brought it up>
Well the post that said they should have Googled Vienna Transport, etc may have well as said that and several others.
Janis dear tourists are special or should be - bona fide tourists and that's where we differ - people wantonly boarding with any ticket that's different - tourist or not but they had a ticket - the wrong one and that tome means they were not trying to scam the system- the reason transport police make checks.
friedy however seems to have a good attitude after all was said and done - thanks for posting anyway so folks going to Vienna should be prepared and do their research, etc. Maybe best to go to a staffed ticket window if one exists and in this case it was not apparent anyway and ask for a ticket to ...... and how it should be validated, etc.
And the ticketing machines probably had English on them if they looked, etc.
I can see both points of view but feel 100 euros for an honest mistake way way too much- punishment exceeds the crime - out of kilter with the intent, etc.
friedy now seems to think like y'all too!
Well the post that said they should have Googled Vienna Transport, etc may have well as said that and several others.
Janis dear tourists are special or should be - bona fide tourists and that's where we differ - people wantonly boarding with any ticket that's different - tourist or not but they had a ticket - the wrong one and that tome means they were not trying to scam the system- the reason transport police make checks.
friedy however seems to have a good attitude after all was said and done - thanks for posting anyway so folks going to Vienna should be prepared and do their research, etc. Maybe best to go to a staffed ticket window if one exists and in this case it was not apparent anyway and ask for a ticket to ...... and how it should be validated, etc.
And the ticketing machines probably had English on them if they looked, etc.
I can see both points of view but feel 100 euros for an honest mistake way way too much- punishment exceeds the crime - out of kilter with the intent, etc.
friedy now seems to think like y'all too!
Apr 5th, 2016, 01:21 PM
#29
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<Friedy you might want to forget you posted this. Same posters. Same reply. Every time.>
Best response, and early in the thread, too, which is always appreciated.
<Some of you are total arses. I also would like to thank the op for the info, it does serve as a warning to others going to Vienna.>
Another good response, but late in the thread, so points deducted.
Best response, and early in the thread, too, which is always appreciated.
<Some of you are total arses. I also would like to thank the op for the info, it does serve as a warning to others going to Vienna.>
Another good response, but late in the thread, so points deducted.
Apr 5th, 2016, 01:22 PM
#30
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The warning was appropriate. The expectation that they should be let off because they are tourists isn't.
It is easy enough to find out about using public transport in different countries now, even if you never read a guide book, the internet is a wondrous resource.
Hopefully others will read this and go find out how the ticket system for the subway in Vienna, or the metro in Paris, or the trams in Amsterdam works nd avoids losing a chin of their holiday money.
Same applies to renting a car - look up the rules, know the speed limits and the indicators that the speed limit has changed for the countries you are visiting. If you get a fine don't winge that they are clearly targeting tourists, since they aren't - camera speed traps catch everyone speeding regardless.
If you are stopped for speeding you can expect an on the sot fine and to be accompanied to the nearest cash point or petrol station to get the cash if you don't have it on you. Really speed and you can expect to lose your licence, even f it is an American one. In many countries it is illegal to drive without your driving licence on your person, so you could really ruin your holiday.
It is easy enough to find out about using public transport in different countries now, even if you never read a guide book, the internet is a wondrous resource.
Hopefully others will read this and go find out how the ticket system for the subway in Vienna, or the metro in Paris, or the trams in Amsterdam works nd avoids losing a chin of their holiday money.
Same applies to renting a car - look up the rules, know the speed limits and the indicators that the speed limit has changed for the countries you are visiting. If you get a fine don't winge that they are clearly targeting tourists, since they aren't - camera speed traps catch everyone speeding regardless.
If you are stopped for speeding you can expect an on the sot fine and to be accompanied to the nearest cash point or petrol station to get the cash if you don't have it on you. Really speed and you can expect to lose your licence, even f it is an American one. In many countries it is illegal to drive without your driving licence on your person, so you could really ruin your holiday.
Apr 5th, 2016, 01:48 PM
#32
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In Spain it is illegal I understand to drive without a spare pair of spectacles if your drivers license says you need them - yet I bet a lot of tourists don't realize that. throw the book at em - maybe some jail time would drive the point of law home! Or issue them a warning - which is better? More understanding - y'all say tourists should not get a pass - what if say a Chinese tourist in your home city gets on a bus without validating their ticket - should your city fine them $125 for just not cancelling the ticket?
Apr 5th, 2016, 02:52 PM
#35
How are the transport police supposed to distinguish between an actual tourist and a local claiming to be a tourist?
I, too, don't get PQ's animus against Vienna. I prefer Budapest, but I find Vienna's transport system admirable.
I, too, don't get PQ's animus against Vienna. I prefer Budapest, but I find Vienna's transport system admirable.
Apr 5th, 2016, 03:28 PM
#36
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IMdonehere you were the one that introduced traffic violations into a discussion about public transport fines as another example of 'unfair' treatment of tourists.
Don't then be surprised if someone addresses why such fines are appropriate and how ridiculous it is that someone who is doing something potentially dangerous should get a free pass just because they are not local.
One other point - the people who keep adjudicating/apologising to the OP for what they see as unreasonable responses - in this and multiple other threads - you are free to speak your opinion on any topic but please stop taking it upon yourself to decide what is an acceptable response from others - you come across as arrogant idiots.
Don't then be surprised if someone addresses why such fines are appropriate and how ridiculous it is that someone who is doing something potentially dangerous should get a free pass just because they are not local.
One other point - the people who keep adjudicating/apologising to the OP for what they see as unreasonable responses - in this and multiple other threads - you are free to speak your opinion on any topic but please stop taking it upon yourself to decide what is an acceptable response from others - you come across as arrogant idiots.
Apr 5th, 2016, 06:48 PM
#37
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IMdonehere you were the one that introduced traffic violations into a discussion about public transport fines as another example of 'unfair' treatment of tourists.
_______________________
Fine. It is equal comparison a ticket and killing someone. But feel free to call others arrogant idiots. Fodor's was made for you.
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In NYC we had 60 million visitors last year. There is no way in hell they all could know all the laws and the unwritten rules as well. There should be common sense by tourists and common sense by cops and anyone else who enforced regs and laws.
To think that people are going to memorize every rule in a guide book, is absolutely ridiculous and unrealistic.
It was not the intent of the OP to game the system. They made an honest error. And there are other cities where they fine people for not having the right transportation receipt. But someone should invoke common sense to realize the difference between a tourist making an error and someone trying to steal a ride.
If the guardians of all that is holy do not recognize someone is a visitor by one of a 1,000 clues, including the question, "Are you an effing tourist?" then they are harming their own city in the long run.
Just the way countries are tracking down traffic offenders and the rental car companies add an onerous admin fee. We are going away later this years and will limit our car rental because of this BS. The one who is paying the consequence is the car rental company.
This place has become a convocation of self-righteous prigs.
_______________________
Fine. It is equal comparison a ticket and killing someone. But feel free to call others arrogant idiots. Fodor's was made for you.
_____________________________
In NYC we had 60 million visitors last year. There is no way in hell they all could know all the laws and the unwritten rules as well. There should be common sense by tourists and common sense by cops and anyone else who enforced regs and laws.
To think that people are going to memorize every rule in a guide book, is absolutely ridiculous and unrealistic.
It was not the intent of the OP to game the system. They made an honest error. And there are other cities where they fine people for not having the right transportation receipt. But someone should invoke common sense to realize the difference between a tourist making an error and someone trying to steal a ride.
If the guardians of all that is holy do not recognize someone is a visitor by one of a 1,000 clues, including the question, "Are you an effing tourist?" then they are harming their own city in the long run.
Just the way countries are tracking down traffic offenders and the rental car companies add an onerous admin fee. We are going away later this years and will limit our car rental because of this BS. The one who is paying the consequence is the car rental company.
This place has become a convocation of self-righteous prigs.
Apr 5th, 2016, 09:58 PM
#38
PalenQ, my statement about travelers who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a holiday but not 10 minutes on the Internet learning how to purchase subway tickets was meant to point out the ridiculousness of the original complaint. You made an incorrect inference.
All of the excuses about "innocent tourists" are just that, excuses. Travelers often like to boast about "living like a local;" well, we "locals" purchase proper transportation tickets. Vienna takes pride in its honor system; transit officers respect the rules, and tourists should, as well. The penalty is large so as to deter the Schwarzfahren (an actual term without any inference to a person's skin color.)
All of the excuses about "innocent tourists" are just that, excuses. Travelers often like to boast about "living like a local;" well, we "locals" purchase proper transportation tickets. Vienna takes pride in its honor system; transit officers respect the rules, and tourists should, as well. The penalty is large so as to deter the Schwarzfahren (an actual term without any inference to a person's skin color.)
Apr 5th, 2016, 10:11 PM
#39
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Just some factual information:
In Austria, using public transport without a valid ticket is a misdemenour with a penalty of up to € 218 - according to federal administrative law.
The amount of maximum penalty is similar to the maximum penalty for parking offences.
A ticket is not valid when you buy it from a machine, but once you validated it. If you don't validate it, you have not paid the fare as the paper stub still has its face value.
In Vienna, the requirement to validate the ticket is printed on the ticket in three languages, including English.
The space reserved for the validation stamp is marked with a bold arrow.
In addition, the entrances to the subway platforms have walk-through 'barriers', with the respective validation machines labeled as such, also in English.
Fare dodging will remain unpunished and the penalty of up to € 218 will be waived if a set "penalty fare" (€ 100 in Vienna) is paid on the spot instead. Or within 3 days, if the person can identify him/herself with gov issued ID.
While the amount of the penalty set by law and those of penalty fares may differ, you will find a similar legal construct in other jurisdictions as well and it's not unique for Austria.
As it has been debated that someone who unknowingly does not carry a valid ticket should not be treated like those who actively try to avoid to pay the fare (e.g. sneak into a bus without showing a valid ticket, jump a barrier):
In Austria, active fare evasion constitutes a felony according to the federal penal code, punishable with one month in prison or penalty of up to 60 day-fines.
In Austria, using public transport without a valid ticket is a misdemenour with a penalty of up to € 218 - according to federal administrative law.
The amount of maximum penalty is similar to the maximum penalty for parking offences.
A ticket is not valid when you buy it from a machine, but once you validated it. If you don't validate it, you have not paid the fare as the paper stub still has its face value.
In Vienna, the requirement to validate the ticket is printed on the ticket in three languages, including English.
The space reserved for the validation stamp is marked with a bold arrow.
In addition, the entrances to the subway platforms have walk-through 'barriers', with the respective validation machines labeled as such, also in English.
Fare dodging will remain unpunished and the penalty of up to € 218 will be waived if a set "penalty fare" (€ 100 in Vienna) is paid on the spot instead. Or within 3 days, if the person can identify him/herself with gov issued ID.
While the amount of the penalty set by law and those of penalty fares may differ, you will find a similar legal construct in other jurisdictions as well and it's not unique for Austria.
As it has been debated that someone who unknowingly does not carry a valid ticket should not be treated like those who actively try to avoid to pay the fare (e.g. sneak into a bus without showing a valid ticket, jump a barrier):
In Austria, active fare evasion constitutes a felony according to the federal penal code, punishable with one month in prison or penalty of up to 60 day-fines.
Apr 5th, 2016, 10:29 PM
#40
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You can all carry on all you like about following the rules but being marched up to an ATM and forced to withdraw money is extremely punitive way to enforce the law. Makes you wonder what they would to to someone littering or spraying graffiti on their trains. Off to the salt mines you go.
