mamcalice

What a great idea! Sicily is an absolutely wonderful destination. You will see the most amazing cultures in one place - to my mind the most fascinating part of Italy. A trip to Pompeii, Naples and Sicily is something to look forward to. And this time, you will experience the wonder that is Venice. Have a wonderful trip.

adrienne

Luisah - I wasn't offended; I just didn't know what you meant and I wondered if maybe I phrased my reply incorrectly.

You could also say that Venice is like Brugge with the canals...but it's not anything like Brugge!

Fritch - I'm glad you're going to Venice and I think you will be glad too but you needed to come to this conclusion yourself.

Luisah

Read John Behrendt's book "City of Falling Angels" for background on Venice. It's non- fiction but reads like a mystery with fascinating, real-life characters.

Fritch

Luisah -

Thanks for the tip. I'm currently reading "Dark water : flood and redemption in the city of masterpieces" about Florence in preparation for going back there for a day to enjoy the Duomo. I will find your recommended book and read it next.

As I said above - I love the people on this site with honest, blunt tips and great recommendations.

Any recommendations on small hotels/B&B's in Venice?

Fritch

bratsandbeer

Fritch - are you looking for something away from the tourist area - something inexpensive?

We have usually stayed somewhere in the tourist area but the last time we tried a b&b which was away from the the tourist area. We loved it there. It by a small neighborhood park. It is beautiful along the canal with benches to sit and watch the boats go by. The water bus stop is just across the small park. There is a small neighborhood pizza place with very good pizza close by with tables where you can sit out and enjoy the evening. and a couple of good restaurants in the neighborhood. Think it would be about a 20 minute walk to St Marks Square. You can check out the reviews on tripadvisor.
http://www.bbvenezia.com/

Fritch

bratsandbeer - Yes, definitely away from the tourist area and relatively small and/or just not a chain. Per Isabel above, we will stay away from St. Marks from 10-5 and then enjoy it early AM or for dinner. Thanks for the B&B tip - I will check it out on Trip Advisor - my other favorite travel reference point.

Fritch

zeppole

Fritch,

Off the beaten path in the lagoon:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/201...blic-trasnport

Sandra, I'm an artist who goes to Venice with eyes wide open, ignoring nothing and no one, which is what artists do. If you can't make the imaginative and aesthetic leap in relating Venice and Amsterdam or perceive their historical relation, spare others your pity and your Napoleonic attitude toward a sad and very much abused place.

zeppole

sandra,

One more thing. Napoleon said that Venice was the finest, not the most beautiful drawing room in Europe. And Victor Hugo -- who had better taste than Napoleon and I'll guess was more widely traveled than you-- called the Grand Place in Brussels "the most beautiful square in the world."

I really don't know what you'll think if I tell you that recently in Amsterdam, I overheard Italian being spoken nearby, so I struck up a conversation with the Italian-speakers, and asked where they were from. They lived quite near Venice, and their families had once lived in Venice. They were paying their second visit to Amsterdam because Amsterdam fascinated them because of its many resemblances to Venice. They talked about the history of sexual license in Venice and Amsterdam, the cultivation of luxury in both one-time shipping empire,s the addiction to coffee and cafe life, and the palatial houses the ridiculously wealthy built on canals in both cities to impress people going by in boats. What they liked about coming to present day Amsterdam was that it was a city full of young people, with a future, even if their canals too were just a tourist attraction. And they thought Amsterdam was beautiful, filled with amazing art museums.

So are you thinking they're poor slobs, or that because they're Venetian, whatever they say must be respected?

Funnily enough, the conversation moved on to other unique cities in Europe and Italy. They seemed to think while Venice was unique, so were other places. I do too. Because it's true.

zeppole

Come to think of it, I now realize sandra actually didn't read my first post. It's a blindness!

TDudette

Here we go again! zeppole, your attitude about Venice and your comments to sandra confound and confuse me-why can't we all be right about our opinions of Venice?

Fritch, please let everyone know how your trip went. I hope you do get to both places so you can add to the debate!

zeppole

TDudette,

I am confounded too. I wrote that I repeatedly visit Venice to see the art and architecture, and Sandra comes back to insultingly lecture me about Venice's art and architecture! Did you read her post?

I don't mind people liking Venice, but could everybody quit with the ignorant remarks and cliches? Venice is not the only "unique" city, not in Italy or the world. Venice and Amsterdam have significant historic and cultural similarities. Even today, It is simply stupid -- I'm sorry -- for the Venice fan club to haughtily declare that Venice is nothing like Amsterdam when in fact it is.

I don't mean to pick on Sandra, but she misquotes Napoleon, misreads my post, poses as having the final word on Venice and how it is unlike Amsterdam, and boasts she walks around ignoring what's right in front of her nose. And somehow I'm in the wrong for responding to her diatribe?

Doesn't anyone notice I don't start these arguments? People just get pissed off at me for not sharing their heavily edited and half-educated tourist ideas of Venice.

By the way, the Venetians call in the Dutch these days to help them dig out when need be. But oh zeppole -- please quit being so factual.

zeppole

But here's an interesting fact I didn't know to confound everyone further, but you Venetian lovers might find it eye-opening:

"The unmatched quality and variety of Amsterdam [glass} beads generated a thriving business in beads for the Netherlands in [the late 16th c.] The Venetians were less advanced in certain technologies then were the Netherlands bead-makers.
Notwithstanding that their elegant products were envied and imitated the world over, the Venetians turned to the glassmakers of the Netherlands for their bead-making expertise. Antonio Neri, a Florentine chemist...became renowned as the author of L'Arte Vetreria, the first printed book on glassmaking, published in 1612... Neri sought to augment his knowledge of glassmaking from the Jewish glassmakers of the Netherlands. .. Murano gained the knowledge of advanced bead production from Neri's book. It is evidenced, for example, by the incorporation of the word conterie ("fancy glass beads"), into Muranese vocabulary, a word employed by Neri.

""Beads exhibiting distinctive Amsterdam-made characteristics were employed by the Dutch and English in the early North American fur trade. The $24.00 worth of beads with which Manhattan Island was purportedly purchased would probably have been produced in the Jewish quarter of Amsterdam."

The Jewish ghetto history of Venice and the Jewish quarter history of Amsterdam have significant overlaps, not only in glass-bead making but in other transactions and cultural developments

sandra3120

Zeppole - I did read your post and was responding to your statement that you go to Venice for the art, but that you can't stand it - meaning Venice. My only aim was not to discourage the original poster, who had said he wasn't much into art, from going to Venice if that was all he thought was there - museum after museum of art in which he had no interest. I do apologize for misquoting Napoleon, though I would have said I paraphrased, and I can assure you I don't have a Napoleonic attitude - quite the contrary: I think he was a megalomaniacal little person who set out to prove that he would end up with the most toys in his box at the end of his (war) games. It was never my intention to lecture anyone, and particularly not you. Those of us who do appreciate Venice do so in spite of its various and quite serious problems for its uniqueness, and many of us besides you do recognize that many places also possess that same quality including Amsterdam, albeit with varying degrees of appreciation according to the aesthetic appeal one may hold over another for each of us. I don't recall any of the posters to Fritch's original query extolling only Venice or denigrating Naples and Pompeii: since Fritch asked which place posters might choose and why, we answered in the spirit of his question; preferences were expressed for each place and it appears that the Venetian preference won, influencing the ultimate decision to visit Venice. I don't think I misread your post, though you certainly misunderstood mine when you think I'm posing as having the final word on Venice, and I didn't boast about ignoring what's in front of my nose - I merely stated that looking past the tourist shops that abound so that you see the overall architecture and structure of the place allows one to truly appreciate its appeal without getting lost in one unappealing aspect. I am not denigrating Amsterdam, Holland in general, nor Dutch ingenuity in solving their own significant water problems and I hope that their engineering feats will help Venice remain a viable destination. I don't know how widely you've travelled, just as you have no idea about my own travels, but I fail to see what relevance that has to Fritch's original query: should Venice or Naples/Pompeii be included on this trip and why. And I guess the last thing I need to address is to apologize for insulting your sensibilities with cliches I've used in posts as well as the one in this post regarding Napoleon and his war games, and then I think I will have answered every one of your objections to my previous post. Just so you don't misunderstand, this isn't a lecture either; it's just a response to your attempts to insult me and to clarify your mischaracterization of my previous answer to Fritch.

zeppole

Where did I ever write "I can't stand being in Venice" -- ?? I go there repeatedly. It would simpler if you didn't ascribe meaning to things but instead just looked.

I appreciate your response, but I'm still left mystified as to why you directed any response to me, especially in such a tone that Venice is "certainly not bloody Amsterdam apart from the canals" . Your posted history of Venice isn't close to the real history of Venice at all. While it is true that Venice --- like many other cities "on the planet" has no duplicate -- its history is not unique by any stretch of the imagination, including its inheritance and marriage customs, its defiance of Rome, and as a powerful but tiny maritime empire that went into decline, it shares many important similarities with other maritime empires but specifically Amsterdam.

You wrote: "Clearly, I'm among those who think Venice is something not to be missed and have no trouble ignoring the poor souls who sail in for a day and wander around buying souvenirs while missing its most unique flavor and then comparing it to Amsterdam."

What on earth does is that about?

If you have arrived to encourage Fritch to go to Venice despite his forthrightly saying he's "not really into art" -- why? Why are you encouraging that behavior in Venice? Unlike you, I can't ignore the damage people are doing to Venice and its art and architecture. They are being encouraged to go there for no serious purpose, and it is a very fragile place. It's not like they are going to learn anything, even by accident. Please -- let's not kid ourselves anymore. If a whole string of posters can confidently declare in the same breath that Venice is NOT to be missed and it is NOTHING like Amsterdam, this is just mindless confusion.

There are hundreds of wonderful and cheaper places to go in Italy where one can eat well, have fun, see curiosities, wander, eat gelato, be surrounded by marvelous old stones, enjoy the sunset and snap picturesque things and not really be interested in art-- all without doing an ounce of harm to truly valuable things or getting in the way of people who seriously care about art. There is no reason for people who have no interest in art should be encouraged to cram into Venice. It's not a playground. It's no help to anybody -- not to the traveler or to Venice -- to encourage this.

zeppole

Good books on Venice to read:

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520241206

http://www.amazon.com/Watermark-Jose.../dp/0374523827

jabez

1. You didn't spend enough time in Rome.
2. I've been to Venice three times and return this fall, but it's not nearly my favorite city.
3. Venice has some similarities to Amsterdam as Toronto has some with Chicago-not enough to consider.
4. I've been to naples (family there) many times, but IMHO it ranks WAY below Rome and below Florence and Venice.Food is great though.
5. Pompeii is a great trip and very interesting.
I could go on, but bottom line is everyone is correct on this thread because it's their personal opinions.

My advice is to return to Rome or go to Lake Como (thought I'd confuse the situation more) fgor your side trip.
Have fun planning.

Peter_S_Aus

Well, I'd go to Venice. But I'm a bit of a self confessed Venice nut case.

Sandra, do you recollect the quotation ascribed to Paul Keating - "The dogs keep barking, but the caravan moves on"?

sandra3120

Yes, Peter, I do though it's entirely possible I didn't remember it verbatim given my limited intelligence and apparent lack of social consciousness. It's an old Arabic proverb and it works so well in this circumstance. Thanks for reminding me that no matter how they bark (all of us dogs), the caravan will move on and reach its destination anyway!

Sandra

Fritch

Jabez - Okay - you have now challenged me. I had a great time in Rome last year. I did the standard 3 day gig - Forum, Vatican, etc (though on my own and not in tour groups and I tried to do things off hours). If I went back and wanted to experience a totally different Rome (like I do in Costa Rica when I go to different areas), where would you recommend that I focus my 3 days?

Fritch

jabez

Fritch
There's so much I enjoy there,it's hard to narrow it down. We will be on our ninth trip there this fall, almost all at least a week at a time.
Among my favorite things to consider:
1.One of the two Scavi tours at the Vatican.
2. If you didn't at least have an audio tour, repeat your previous visit to Forum/Colosseum with a tour guide.
3. Free tour at Pantheon.
4. The Capitoline Museums.
5.The Baths of Diocletian and Caracalls.
6. Via Appia and the catacombs.
7. There are a number of important Christian churches I can recommend, if that appeals to you (one actually is a church atop a twelth century church atop a first century one).
8. I love Tivoli (although it's a bit out) and its d'Este and Hadrian's villas. There is a great restaurant there where you can have amazing food while sitting under a pillar of an ancient pagan temple.
8. Wander around Trastevere as well as the back streets near Navona (at night).
9. Enjoy lunch at Gusto.
10. Simply enjoy Rome without feeling the urgency of tackling it.
I've skipped Borhese, Castel sant'Angelo, Nero's golden palace,etc. because they don't make my personal top ten-personal preference.
My wife might add shopping as well to this list.