I'm trying to plan out days for this trip for mid-September. Including the day of arrival (9AM) we have either 13 or 14 days. Could wander Venice the day of arrival or go to Burano or Treviso.

The focus of this trip is supposed to be Umbria. We do not rent a car and travel mostly by train and only when absolutely necessary by bus.

We've been to Venice twice before. However, we'll be arriving in Venice and there are several very good day trips from here. Of course, a day or part of a fews days to wander around Venice isn't a bad idea. If possible I'd like to keep this to 4 days.
Burano, Treviso, Padua, Vicenza and Verona (Mantova?) are on the short list. Ferrara and bike on the wall as in Lucca? Worth it?

Possibly Padua & Vicenza on the same day? Burano and Treviso on the same day? Verona & Mantova? Does this sound doable for 3-4 days?

Perugia. Never been so some time in Perugia in addition to day trips is good.
On the short list are Spello, Spoleto, Gubbio & Todi. I thought I had another town but it escapes me. Comments on timing?

We've been to Rome a couple of times over the years. The main reason for Rome is to visit Orvieto and to return home. Also, a day or so in Rome isn't a bad idea.

Two choices. Go from Perugia to Rome and visit Orvieto as a day trip. Or, stop in Orvieto on the way from Perugia and sleep over. The first has the advantage of one less hotel change. The second has the advantage of sleeping in a smaller town and wander more in the evening when the tourists are gone. Comments?

Thanks for comments and suggestions.

I think the mention of Lucca must be a mistake. It's 4+ hours by train between Venice and Lucca. Even Lucca fans (which I'm not) would probably agree that's too far for a day trip.

You need to check train and bus timetables and decide how much time each day you want to spend moving around and how fast you like to explore. (I admit we explore slowly.) You may decide some of these city combos are OK, but for me Verona and Mantova in one day, for example, would be too much time on trains and not enough time sightseeing.

Trying to see two Umbrian towns in one day without a car would be challenging. Gubbio and Todi are in their own separate directions from Perugia, although I believe Deruta is a stop on the bus route to Todi. Spoleto and Spello could perhaps be combined in one day, but I would go to Spoleto first in the event you decide you need the entire day there.

You didn't mention Assisi which IMO is a must-see in Umbria.

Check the train timetables, but I don't think it would be easy to get from Perugia to Orvieto early in the day which would mean by the time you've reached your hotel and dropped your luggage, it would be time for lunch, and the day is quickly slipping away. Whether that sounds OK to you depends on what you want to see in Orvieto. FWIW, we enjoyed Orvieto more than Perugia.

"Burano, Treviso, Padua, Vicenza and Verona (Mantova?) are on the short list. Ferrara and bike on the wall as in Lucca? Worth it?"

I've been to all of them, agree they are all wonderful and easily done by train from one base - well except Lucca which as stated above is certainly an outlier to the others. Also agree with the statement that even Lucca fans (which I also am not) wouldn't do it on your trip.

I would consider staying in Padua or Verona, two of my favorite Italian towns, from which you can do the others as day trips. Check the trenitalia site for train times and journey lengths and map out a schedule. Burano is an island 'in' Venice so doesn't really fit with the others. It was a nice thing to do while in Venice but given what else you want to do I'd probably skip it. Trevisio was nice enough but I also wouldn't put that at the top of my list, and with only four days in the area it wouldn't make the list at all. And Vicenza was also a town that didn't (for me) live up to it's reputation, it was OK, but I like others better.

Now the rest - Verona, Padua, Mantua, Ferrara - I love, love, love all of those towns. Been to Verona and Padua twice and will return to all of them again. I'm even considering all four of them for month long stays once I get to the point in my life when I can do that. I think each of them deserves a whole day (even if it means taking time from Umbria and Rome) and using either Padua or Verona as a base makes sense. A few years ago I spent a week in Padua doing day trips, last summer I spent four days in Verona (and visited Mantua and Ferrara - and also Sirmione on Lake Garda). Check out my photos here: http://www.pbase.com/annforcier. Venice has it's own gallery; Verona, Vicenza, Padua and Treviso are in the Veneto Gallery; Mantova is in with Milano; and Ferrara is at the end of the Emilia Romagna gallery.

I've also been to most of the places you list in Umbria, we based in Perugia, which we loved. But we had a car on that trip so I'm not sure about the public transportation in the area. Assisi and Spello were my favorites in that area, along with Perugia itself.

Orvieto is also wonderful and I think worth a night even though it means an extra hotel.

Here is my trip report from last summer which included Verona, Mantua and Ferrara - http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-the-lakes.cfm

I stayed in Perugia for 10 days and went to a different town every day. Todi, Gubbio, Spoleto, Spello, Assisi, Orvieto. All by train or bus from a base in Perugia. Also spent lots of time looking at the art in Perugia.
This was not a hurried 10 days but I didn't hang about either. You need a decent amount of time to do this on public transport.

It would be wise to allot an entire day for Padua. Getting there and visiting the Scrovegni Chapel would pretty much take up the entire morning if you don’t leave Venice until after 9 a.m. Then wander around and have a nice lunch somewhere. Then there’s the centro part of town, which is lovely, and a 15-20 minute walk from there down to the area of San Antonio and the Prato delle Valle and that area.

As for Orvieto, I would spend the night there and head to Rome the next day. Why backtrack from Rome just for an afternoon? Doing a 1-nighter in a hotel doesn’t have to be a big deal (if you travel light).

>>>On the short list are Spello, Spoleto, Gubbio & Todi. I thought I had another town but it escapes me. Comments on timing?<<<

Assisi?

I've stayed in Orvieto several times. I would spend the night there.

Let me clarify a misunderstanding of what I wrote. I did not include Lucca in this trip. I just likened riding a bike in Ferrara to doing the same in Lucca. We enjoyed the afternoon in Lucca and to a picnic stop while riding bikes on the wall.

I was only trying to do some grouping for the day trips from Venice. I was trying to leave more time for those out of Perugia.

Isabel, would you drop Vicenza and Treviso to concentrate on Padua, Verona, Mantua and Ferrara?

I'm glad you liked Perugia. As a base it gets extra time.

I'd like to sleep in Orvieto. I'll see what my wife thinks about the idea.

I'll check out your photos and trip report. Thanks.

Gertie, thanks for the comments. I did a bit of town-grouping around Venice to leave more time around Perugia.

Holly, kybourbon. Thanks for the comments. I'm leaning towards spending the night in Orvieto.

I'm afraid to say it but Assisi is not on our list of towns.

- - - -
A slightly different idea. What if we left Perugia for Orvieto in the morning and spent the afternoon and evening wandering around Orvieto. Then the next day we could wander Orvieto in the morning and take the 12:45 bus to Bagnoregio and return on the 17:25 bus to pick up our luggage and continue on to Rome.

Is that worth the effort?

I might choose Assisi over Spoleto. And I love Spoleto. There is more to see in Assisi than just the basilica.

Does the bus between Orvieto and Bagnoregio start/end IN Orvieto or below the town at or near the train station? If at the train station, there's one more step to the excursion (well, three in this scenario) in that you have to get down the hill by funicular or taxi, back up to retrieve your luggage and then back down again to catch the train to Rome. Worth it? Only you can decide.

Jean, Thanks.

I'll do more research on Assisi.

I didn't think Bagnoregio would be worth the effort. It's just that pictures made it look interesting.

Myer - I would def. drop Vicenza and Treviso to concentrate on Padua, Verona, Mantua and Ferrara. In fact I would take a day from other areas if necessary to be able to see them. Not only are they gorgeous, but they are less overrun with tourists than some of the 'biggies' in Italy. Not that you shouldn't spend time in those places also, but it's nice to see some cities that aren't primarily focused on tourism.

isabel, Thanks. Let's see if we can get more opinions on that as it might be tough to get to Verona and Matua on the same day but thet're both in the same direction and some distance from Venice.

Between
Treviso
Vicenza
Padua
Verona
Mantua
Ferrara

Travelling by train, if two were to be dropped which do you suggest and why?

Thanks.

I would drop Treviso and Mantua reluctantly. Mantua is wonderful but it's off the main railway line. All the others are easily accessible by the train that runs between Venice and Milan.

gertie, Thanks.

Ok. If I drop Mantua then maybe I could add either Treviso or Vicenza. Is either worth the time and effort?

I don't know if they are worth visiting. However, time-wise they are good. Since they're so close to Venice either could be grouped with Venice.

We've been to Venice twice so I doubt we'll want a Venice marathon but part of several days would always be nice.

Burano, Treviso and Vicenza are all in that category of being close enough to split days between them and Venice.

Could somebody tell me a bit about Ferrara? Where does it fit in for a visit?

Having been to all three, I would vote for Burano and Vicenza before considering Treviso. When you visit Burano, be sure to hop over to Torcello.

I'm not as wild about Ferrara as some seem to be. If heading in that direction, I'd prefer Ravenna, but I love mosaics.

I really liked Vicenza. A nice quiet city with beautiful Palladian architecture, an interesting Teatro Olimipico and museum. Preferred it to Verona, not as full of tourists!
Actually it looks like Ferrara is off the main railway line. You would have to change at Padua. I have done several trips to this area and am getting them mixed up. We went there to see the Palazzo Schiffanoia and the cathedral and the castle of the Dukes of Este.
You can't go wrong really,all these towns are packed with interesting sights.
Yes, Burano is a must-see and you have to stop at Torcello en route.

Thanks ellenem & gertie.

It looks like we're forming a consensus about dropping Treviso and keeping Vicenza.

I'm glad that Ellenem and Gertie mentioned seeing Torcello with Burano - you need to get the little ferry from the jetty where the vaporetto stops, then when you get off walk for about 10 mins down to the Cathedral, which was last renovated in the 12th century. The mosaics are fascinating and the whole building is very atmospheric. We also had a very nice lunch in one of the restaurants we found on the way - i think that it was the Trattoria Attila, though we also enjoyed the lunch we had on Burano too. [not on the same day!],

>>>take the 12:45 bus to Bagnoregio and return on the 17:25 bus to pick up our luggage and continue on to Rome.<<<

Check to see if the 12:45 bus is a school run. School runs make more stops and can be packed/noisy. You will have to get a local bus when you get to Bagnoregio or it's a long trek. The station in Orvieto does not have luggage storage so you would have to arrange with your hotel to keep it. There is also one hotel near the station that used to store luggage. You would have to check and see if that is still possible. Be sure to purchase round trip ticket so you aren't stuck trying to find somewhere to buy one in Bagnoregio.

>>>Does the bus between Orvieto and Bagnoregio start/end IN Orvieto or below the town at or near the train station?<<<

It used to have pick up both at Piazza Cahen and the station, but not all runs have the same stops. Some cater to commuters and some to school kids.

kybourbon,
That bus isn't a school bus. But I think I'm giving up on that.

Ferrara is only about an hour from Venice so doable as a day trip, but it is in the direction of Perugia so you could do it on the way there - spend the night and it would make the rather longish trip to Perugia a bit shorter.

Also, since you have been to Venice twice and seem to be interested in seeing other parts of the region as much as Venice itself, staying in someplace like Padua makes sense on several fronts. It's easily reached from Venice airport, it's only about a half hour train ride from Venice if you want to go there some of the time, and it's easier for all the other day trips you are considering. That's what I did on my third trip to Venice and I was very happy with the decision. I hate to recommend staying in Padua to people who have never been to Venice (unless budget is really constrained) but as this will be your third trip it's something to consider.