For those of you following the saga of our crashing an AutoEurope car (through Avis) in Wales on May 25 of this year, here's the latest.

Other posts have gone into some of the specifics, but to make the long story short, we didn't take the insurance -- relying on a Citibank Visa card which we checked in advance and "yes, it will give you full coverage." We still think we may get it all straightened out although so far it is nearly 5 months of constant paperwork, mailings, emails, and phone calls.

Here's the latest. We still need one more item -- an "itemized" estimate of the repairs to the car." The problem with this is that they decided to consider the car a total loss. Visa has been provided with a repair estimate which shows cost of parts, estimated hours of labor, estimated cost of labor, painting, miscellaneous details, and allowance for "misestimate". The total is roughly double what they show as the value of the car less what they got for selling the wreck to a scrap yard, so they made it a total loss and have billed the credit card for approximately $6000. Visa Enhancement Services insists they need a repair estimate that itemizes piece by piece every part for the repair. Avis insists to me that no such estimate was done or will be made since the rough estimate clearly shows it was illogical to repair the car. Visa insists they need to know exactly how that estimated figure was arrived at so need an item by item estimate. One person at Visa now tells me he has spoken with an AVis representative who has promised to send them an itemized statement, so that's what they're waiting for. But I'm convinced what they're going to get is another copy of what they already have -- not an item by item estimate. This part (supposedly the last part) of the required paperwork has been going on for about two months now.

I have tried to put the charge from Avis on dispute, but Visa has denied that as we clearly owe Avis the money. Visa Enhancement services "will reimburse you directly" for the charges. I'm about to go back to dispute as my theory is that if Avis can't provide the insurance company with the necessary paperwork for the payment, then they are at fault, even though clearly what Visa is demanding is idiotic at best.

So for the time being we own a demolished Peugeot sitting in a junkyard in Wales. Well, actually I take that back, since they are only charging us the difference between the cost of the car and what they got selling it for parts or junk, so we don't even own the wreck! So I should just say we have a $6000 investment in a junked car in Wales.

Every night just before I put my head on the pillow I repeat three times: "I will never rent a car again without taking THEIR insurance."

Why not contact Conde Nast Traveler magazine's Ombudsman re this problem - no guarantee they'll accept your situation for follow-thru, but they might, and finally get this settled for you.

I tend to agree with you Patrick; I always take the CDW & Super CDW to ensure I have no problems.

Do you know if all of this you are going through is NORMAL, or is it a particular problem with AVIS? I had always assumed that the issue would be solved between the card company and rental company directly without the involvement of the client. After all, one is paying for a premium card, the coverage does not come free.

Best of luck with the problem.

regards Ger

Patrick, so the moral of the story is to accept the car rental co's insurance?
Is it a slight fee over the rental fee? I have never checked the box saying I will take their insurance, perhpas I shall for now on.........

Gee Patrick. This is kind of scarey. We have rented many times, and sometimes take their insurance, sometimes not depending on the cost.

After your first post, I rented a car in Austria without their insurance and I just was concerned the whole time.

And now after reading this post, I don't want to think about our next vacation and have a six month saga going on if we have an accident.

A deductible of $600 to contend with is one thing, but $6000 is a little different matter. And I hope that you will get it resolved, but it has to be bothersome and stressful let alone time consuming to deal with.

All the best of luck in getting it finished and behind you. I hate to think that one big memory of what I am sure was an otherwise wonderful vacation was dealing with this.

Patrick, thanks for this info. Before I read your other post about the accident, I would not have accepted the CDW for my trip to the UK in May. However, you have changed my mind forever about CDW, especially regarding rentals out of the country. I am so sorry for your misfortune, but you have helped me and probably some other people to avoid a similar sitation.

Wow Patrick, pretty scary stuff! I hate that kind red tape,,,makes me all tense and nervous trying to get it worked out!

Patrick, sorry for your troubles.

I think you have the right attitude in chalking it up as a lesson to take the insurance.

i always do and figure that even with a deductable/waiver of £500 or so, at least you know for what amount you are liable should the worst case occur.

I don't agree with some of the other posters' assumptions that this would automatically be between the rental company and the insurer. Avis has offered their own insurance and if denied, then you do so at your own risk and hassle.

Avis cannot know about and blindly agree to "interface" with every insurance company (especially foreign ones). Unfortunately, i believe both avis and visa, while international companies probably operate quite locally in each country so they are effectively foreign companies to each other and speak a very different language when it comes to forms the mountains of other paperwork that is generated by all corporate and governmental parties related to an accident.

Gee, I wouldn't consider it a particular problem with Avis at all!
In fact I really don't blame Avis. Who in their right mind WOULD require an itemized repair bill when a general estimate shows that repairs would be prohibitive. I told the guy from Visa on the phone to show a picture of the wrecked car (another requirement -- thank goodness, I had the presence of mind to snap some pictures at the scene of the accident) to a few car repair places in the States and ask them if they would repair it for under $6000. I suggested that once they stopped laughing, to let me know what their final response was. The guy at Visa didn't appreciate my sense of humor regarding that plan.

Essentially everyone has been very nice in all these dealings -- and I'm not sure it is really so much stalling as it is just taking lots of time for the red tape. The length of time to get necessary paperwork is compounded by the fact we're dealing back and forth between a Visa office in the US, an Avis office near London, and some agency in Wales that ended up with the car -- although the estimates are handled by a firm in Birmingham, England, so that adds to the red tape also! Everyone keeps saying, don't worry, it will be taken care of. And don't forget that we remained in Europe for two months after the accident, so it was especially hard to get anything accomplished during that period.

By the way, previously I mentioned the problem of Visa demanding I get an official accident report from the Wales police, but the Wales police have a firm policy that they cannot give or send an accident report to the person who has caused the accident, (for fear of the person using the addresses and phone numbers of witnesses and the person who was hit as retaliation). Anyway, Visa finally agreed that they no longer needed that report. I've never been sure if it was because they actually were able to get one themselves from the police, or because they settled for the detailed accident report we filed with Avis -- including our admission of fault.

By the way, our original intent was to take the full insurance package as we always have before through AutoEurope. But it was an AutoEurope rep on the phone when I went to finalize the rental who told me that I was "stupid" to take the insurance if my credit card covered it. So here was an example of being talked OUT of the insurance by the rental agency. I put the whole thing on hold to confirm with Visa that I would be covered and actually found out that coverage was better -- no deductible --if I rejected all insurance with Avis/AutoEurope and relied on Visa as my primary insurer. It "saved" me about $100 on a 9 day rental. And although I forget what the deductible amount was to have been if I took the AutoEurope plan, I believe in the long run I am supposed to get full reimbursement, so that is better than being responsible for the deductible amount.

Oh, yes, and it is made clear by everyone -- Avis, AutoEurope, and Visa that the renter is going to be responsible for the damage, but that Visa will then reimburse the renter -- not the agency for the repairs or damage. So that was no surprise.

Patrick:
We had a similar situation in Spain this summer with a rental charged on our Platinum Business VISA card. We had the CDW included in the cost of the rental and paid the standard deductible. which amounted to 675 euros + IVA. The damage to the car was estimate in excess of 3000 euros and as bad as the deductible was, it could have been worse relying only on the VISA provided insurance for several reasons.

First, VISA also has a deductible which you are required to pay before they will cover any damages caused by the accident.

Second, regardless of what VISA decides to do, if they do anything at all and you do not have the CDW, your credit card will be billed the total amount of repairs/damages by the rental agency until the matter is settled, which, as you have found out, may take some time.

Third, both VISA and MC no longer cover road damages (blowouts, rock damage, vandalism, etc.) when renting a car in Europe because, as we where informed, European insurance companies don't normally cover such damage as part of their regular insurance policies, unlike some American insurance companies that will include such coverage in their policies for an additional fee.

The forth and final reason not to rely on the credit card companies is that there is the possibility it will affect you future standing with them. It's not the case for everyone, but it's best to consider what could happen once they are forced to pay on a large insurance claim. There is also some question if they, the credit card companies, would be responsible for any medical coverage should someone be injured in the accident.

For our second rental of the summer, we opted for the full CDW, with zero deductible, and ended up only paying an additional 160 euros for 16 days of coverage. More than anything, it relieved us of worrying if more anything happened. With the number of drivers, both good and bad, foreign and domestic, on the roads in Europe, something's going to happen. It's only a matter of time.

Some rental car companies, including brokers such as Petrabax, include the CDW as part of their rental packages and are still able to compete with the other agencies. Based on our past experiences, since this was not the first time one of our rental cars suffered some sort damage, we have decided to ignore the credit card company coverage and include the non-deductible insurance offered by the car rental agency and consider it as part of the expense of renting a car in Europe. If we can get anything back from VISA or MC, then it will only be a plus to not having to worry about being completely covered as we are here at home.

This a real eye-opener! As I said, I have always taken the full insurance, but just recently opted for a premium VISA card that offered CDW. I was almost considering usng it for an upcoming trip, but not now!

Thanks guys!

regards Ger

Oh, one good bit of news. Actually Avis only charged 600 pounds plus VAT on the card, about two months after the accident as a temporary charge. (That amounted to about $1300). They just charged an additional $4600 plus this past week. So at least I haven't had the full amount tied up for 5 months. I only saw this new charge on the account on line. Won't get that bill for another two to three weeks and then have another two to three weeks to pay it, so I'm hoping this gets resoved before it must be paid. And as I said, I'm thinking of trying a dispute against Avis to delay paying it an extra month -- since as I mentioned I can theoretically claim that Avis has been unable to provide the necessary documents for getting this claim settled.

This story is the same as my friends. Their damage was only about $1,000. but the card was billed $5,000 by the car rental agency. The card was tied up for almost 1 year and during that time they had to pay monthly amounts to the credit card, which was accruing interest. In the end all came out fine, but it was a lot of red tape and took a lot of time. It seems to me that in the Conde Nast omnibus section they recommend that you purchse all insurance. I feel for you Patrick. I hate these red tape things where is no common sense. Good luck.

Patrick, I'm so sorry your are having such problems. What an eye opener! I always smuggly decline their insurance, feeling quite confident that my visa will look after me very well if and when I ever had an accident. ( Actually I did have a small one once, and it was handled very efficiently). I always felt very good about NOT paying the car rentals high daily rates on insurance.
I guess I have to reconsider this now.
It's too bad you are having to go through all this , but thank you for giving us the heads up.

Patrick, what a tedious chore this is turning out to be for you, I am sorry. And thank you for the updates, I do so appreciate it. An informed decision to take or not take CDW does, indeed, require information just such as the type you're giving.

I wonder if what VISA wishes to know is precisely who came to the conclusion that the car was a write-off. Did AVIS use a third party appraiser who had no vested interest in the outcome, and if so, can the name of said appraiser be supplied to VISA? Or even if it was an in-house appraiser, could his/her credentials be presented to be vetted by VISA?

I too always take photographs of the car on the first and last day of rental, in an attempt to supply proof of the condition in which we returned the car. We have always relied on CC coverage (AMEX corporate, which has zero deductible); we have preferred to gamble that over the number of rentals we've used, the savings will justify any hassle such as the type you are having (especially since alas, you were truly unlucky - your case is far more than just a cracked windshield/blown tire or similar uncovered item).

That said, I have noticed that the cost of basic rentals has risen dramatically over the last few years, and I too wonder if the rental companies are beginning to charge almost as much for basic as for CDW-included, in an attempt to recover revenue lost when CC companies started offering insurance. So our strategy may be changing, especially after reading of your experience.

I do wish you luck, and hope it all sorts out soon.

Since Visa is in the credit business not insurance, I'm wondering if the coverage is actually through another company such as an insurance company. If so, then maybe a complaint to the state insurance commission would speed things along.

I have a teenage daughther with several wrecks in the past 2 years that weren't her fault and found that the other driver's insurer was not interested in paying the claim. This went on for several months until I talked to my state insurance commission and they advised me to file a complaint. I called the insurance company I was having the problem with and informed them I was going to file a complaint and my check was in the mail the next day.

It's very frustating trying to sort these things out especially the hours you spend on hold on the phone. I hope you get your money soon.

To answer a couple of the above questions:
The name of the estimator along with address and other information is on the letter head of the estimate -- it is a firm in Birmingham called "Unit 1A Hockley Brook Trading Estate." I would certainly assume that if Visa wanted more information they could contact them and probably already have, but as I said, I really doubt that an itemized estimate can still be made, as I'm sure the car is now sitting in some junkyard now somewhere, after being stripped for parts.

The insurance is handled by "Visa Enhancement Services". The way I understand it, it is not part of Visa itself, but rather the firm that handles all these insurance things for Visa. When I spoke with a man there, he told me that they couldn't get the police report either because they aren't an insurance company. When I said something to the effect that they should have the actual insurance company get it, he responded something like "there is no actual underwriter, we underwrite our own payouts". Don't ask me what this means, except it sounds sort of like they are "self-insurers".

A quick google of visa cdw insurance and the page I located the visa page that says the cdw insurance is underwritten by the Indeminity Insurance Company of North America and says a copy of the policy is on file at the Visa office. I think I would ask them to fax a copy of the policy.
Another quick google and you get the phone number and address for them.
1601 Chestnut St. Philadelphia 800-352-4462.

Patrick:
Like all big corporations, VISA is self-insured and if they can delay paying a claim, or find a loophole, they will. Its only business. It's also not unusable for them, or any other third party for that matter, to be able to obtain the information themselves, instead relying on you to do it. It may be the fact that they have no illegal obligation, or involvement in what happens. Since I take it you are an American, they are not a regulated insurance company, they are not covered by state insurance regulations for anything that occurs outside of the USA.

I guess what we've learned from your experience and our own is to bite the bullet and opt for the full coverage, with zero deductible on any future car rentals.