ekscrunchy

Will try to keep this brief.

About 15 years ago we spent a few nights in a masseria outside Andria in Puglia. We enjoyed it, and I wrote a trip report that included comments on our stay there--all positive. On that trip, I asked the owner to book us 2 meals at nearby well-respected restaurants. He did this and planned to join us one night for dinner if he had the time. (He did not, but that is not part of the story here). When we last stayed there, there was no on-site restaurant, although the masseria did serve breakfast. (Again, all described in my report on this forum)

Scroll forward to 2023.

I worked on an itinerary that included a few slightly off-the beaten-path destinations. We also wanted to return to this masseria,, mainly because we know the area is rich in very good places to eat including two we had tried before, and a third where we would have our first dinner.

One of these restaurants takes no bookings by e-mail and the others are often a bit tricky to try to book from the US, online.

So as I usually do, either of time of booking, or shortly after confirmation of booking, I request that the hotel phone the restaurants and book a table for myself and (usually) my partner. I give the name of the restaurant, the time requested, and any other requests. NEVER in about 25 trips to Italy has a hotel declined to do me the favor of making one or two or three phone calls to book for me.

Flashing forward again to 2023. The masseria now has its own restaurant on the premises. It looks lovely, from their description on the website. It is expensive by local standards and only offers complete dinners, not a la carte.

So: I inquire about the 3 nights and yes, they have a room for us. I let them know I will send data for confirmation of the room. Front of house staff has been warm and welcoming up to this point.

In the same e-mail, in which I say I will be sending my cc info to secure the room (and which they will charge at time of booking, not at arrival; this has become more common practice in that last few years, as cancellation policies have become far more strict. (another topic for another time but worth a discussion).

In that same e-mail, I request that the owner of the hotel, (who we knew from previous visit) or anyone on staff, be so kind as to book us for one lunch and 2 dinners at nearby eating places. Again, I have booked my restaurant through my hotel staff for decades and never had any problem.

BUT this time, I received a response from a female at the front desk saying that they do not book outside restaurants for guests, but I would be welome to dine on site at their own restaurant.

I was more than mildly surprised. Where is the famed hospitality of the Pugliese??? So many hotels we've all stayed at have on-site restaurants. Are we then "required" to dine there or forego services such as making phone calls to book outside restaurants? Just for background: Last March I spent 3 nights at a fine hotel in Jerez, with an onsite restaurant. Later that week I relocated to a small inn outside Vejer. Not the hotel in Jerez, nor the hotel in Vejer (which offered dinners on site) blilnked an eye when I handed them a list for my desired dinner venues. From the simplest B&B in Liguria to one of the top hotels (personal fave) in Rome....not once has a hotel reacted this way at my request to book restaurants.

So...after being denied by the person at the front desk, I suggested that she ask the owner, who we knew from a prior visit and who has kindly booked our restaurants last time.

THE RESPONSE: "The owner, "Dottore P" think that you are RUDE to ask us to book outside restaurant when we have a wonderful place to eat right here.

Not willing to let this go, as I should have...I took it further (I would have dropped it but good places to stay are not thick on the ground in this area) and asked them if the price I had to pay to have them book outside restaurants would be that I had to et there for one meal...

Obviously, the answer was YES. And by then our exchanges were strained and partner here was ready to cancel that destination entirely..he was so annoyed but he said to me "Look, ek, they do not want you and they obviously do not need you, so leave it at that...we can just skip that area and move on..at this point I would not bend to their "requirements" and there is no way I think we ought to book there."

The masseria wrote back to me (after I sent them a part of my trip report that talked about out stay there in 90% positive tones), but the tone was something along the lines of: "OK, we get it..what is it exactly that you want us to book for you; we will do that if you will have one dinner with us."

In the end, we booked another country house a bit less convenient but even before I gave the cc info, the owner assured me he would book the restaurants i asked about (and he also has a restaurant on site) If anyone is curious, the name of the B&B we booked is outside Canosa di Puglia (birthplace of the owner of the first masseria!) and the name is AZIENDA AGRICOLA CEFALICCHIO. The owner, who was kind in our e-mail communications, is SALVATORE.


https://www.cefalicchio.it/eng/index.asp

We are looking forward to our stay there. In case you are wondering about the name of the first masserie, you can find it by looking at my earlier trip report. I think this is the one:

https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/puglia-and-matera-from-pane-di-altamura-to-peperoni-di-senise-891345/

AJPeabody

It looks like you follow my motto:
"If at first you don't succeed. try, try, again. Then give up. There's no sense in making a damn fool of yourself."

crellston

IME in 15 years things change and sadly, rarely for the better. The most memorable places we have stayed in over the years have invariably been memorable for the people rather than the place itself. People move on, that delightful owner may have sold the place or passed it on to the kids. The fantastic meal is rarely as good second time around. We often go back to places we have stayed before but it usually turns out to be a triumph of hope over experience. One exception was a home stay we stayed at in Saigon. Musta have stayed there 10+ times and each time it got better as we got to know the owners more as friends than as a commercial relationship . Sadly, we tried to stay there last year en route to Australia and found they had stopped trading during the pandemic # devastated .

as some say, "never go back"

Fingers crossed the next places is even better than the last. They dont deserve your custom.

cdnyul

I am in the "never go back" camp.

My wife and I met in Nice in 76, went back on our honeymoon in 81. It was a mistake.
My Paris is the Paris of Audrey Hepburn and "Charade" that of empty Louvre, and having the Eiffel Tower practically to ourselves.
Have no plans of ever going back.

It is most likey that the intial helpfulness was a business strategy, not a character trait.
With the restaurant on premises, there is a new one.

ekscrunchy

Thanks for the support from you both. You both raise the same issues. I do tend to pester and not just drop things when I should. I get my ire up and almost could not believe the exchanges. What kind of owner (same owner as when we stayed first time) tells a prospective customer that he/she is "rude???"


Crellston, so true about the people who make the experiences memorable. It's not the size of the bathroom or the fact that water splashes over the shower curtain and floods the room.....when I think back to my younger traveling days, the comparison between then and now is stark....back then if you had a room at the Swiss Hotel in Penang, who cared if the bathroom was outside, or that the wall did not reach the ceiling? Reservations for a restaurant? Just unheard of.. Those were the days, eh?? (I do think I am older than you...) Anyway, as usual veering far off topic here...

With my all consuming interest in food, I do tend to go overboard with the planning about where to eat, so consider me guilty as charged...the only reason we wanted to spend 3 nights in that part of Puglia was to eat at certain restaurants...and I do not mean anything "fancy" or with Michelin stars....as if I have to convince you, take my own home turf..I'd just as soon hike out to the part of Queens, NYC, where the main street is lined with the most fantastic variety of food stalls, plates are paper as are napkins and seating is not always a given. Maybe once or twice a year we might go to a more upscale place, but I do not mean $200 a person restaurants.......

Oh, here I go rambling on and on again......

Thank you for responding and I wish you both well and with happy traveling in the near future!

SusanP

That behavior is outrageous! I don't blame you for moving to a different place. Hope it turns out to be great!

Jean

I give hospitality people one chance to deal with an issue or a problem, hoping there will be either a change of attitude or a change in personnel at the other end of the communication. It's different if you're there, standing right in front of them, but rudeness is easier at a distance, especially by email.

Frankly, I think you might have had a less-than-great experience on the return visit, even if you'd acquiesced to the dinner extortion.

macdogmom

We had an amazing trip to Matera and went to Puglia years ago based on how interesting your trip report was. I agree completely about restaurants and our trip in May to London and Paris was mainly going back to some favorites in London (Barrafina, The Barbary and Koya) and trying some new semi casual restaurants in Paris. We’re the same way in Calif.-would rather order at a window and sit in a courtyard or patio and eat great food (usually ethnic) than go to a restaurant and spend a fortune. I got restaurant ideas for last europe trip at Hungry Onion which has a lot of old Chowhound people on it and I immediately said I don’t want tasting menu’s or 150euro prix fixe, Good,luck and have a fabulous trip to Puglia. We stayed at a Masseria in the countryside that only served breakfast and we got some very good very down home suggestions from the owner for dinners. We walked into a place one night that was all Italians and every table stopped talking and swiveled our way. Husband and son are very tall (and handsome) and I think they thought they had got some Hollywood types at their humble abode. It was a really fun evening!

studenttobe

I would have done exactly as you did Ekscrunchy--those rounds of communication would have put me off the place completely.

KTtravel

Well, certainly it is the masseria's right to do business as they wish but I would have been very disappointed in their refusal to be accommodating. I am glad you decided to stay elsewhere. Have a great trip!

progol

I’m with everyone else. I find it hard to understand their reluctance to make reservations for you, especially since you’d been there before and they had no problem with doing it. I think it’s bad business practice for them.

I’m glad you found other accommodations; I would’ve done the same.

Traveler_Nick

It is rude. The only surprising thing IMHO is they mentioned it.

From the sound of it post Covid they invested money on an on site restaurant. Hoping at least a part of the guests used it. The restaurant and maybe even the hotel might only be viable if some number of guests use it. Not really a shock they'd rather have guests using the restaurant.

Are you required to use it? Obviously not but that doesn't mean you need to flaunt the fact you're going some where else.

Would you go to a restaurant eat most of your meal than ask the waiter to book you a table for dessert down the street?

Travel_Nerd

I can see both sides, really. It has been 15 years. What was 2008 is certainly not 2023... and this establishment has changed, and so have their policies. While I do think their response was impolite, I do also see why they initially turned you down and alternatively thought your demands to also be impolite. Especially aince they are running a business that includes a restaurant. Making reservations elsewhere for a guest means they are losing money on those very demands you were requesting of them. I hate to say this, but hotels with on-site restaurants in the US likely would behave the same way.

Alas, you have every right to take your business elsewhere and sounds as if you did. What if you hadn't though and this hotel would not have done this for you? Couldn't you possibly have made reservations with the respective restaurants when you arrived in town? Or, called them ahead of time?

Granted, you took your business elsewhere and got the result you wanted, an establishment to help you with this service. In the end, did you really lose? I do hope you are able to once again enjoy Puglia and really hope returning to these restaurants will give you the meals that you've remembered for 15 years.

rialtogrl

Everyone is so busy right now. I’d cut them a little slack. I don’t think it is too common for people to ask that a front desk person make reservations way in advance, perhaps if you’d shown up and asked it would have been different. Maybe she is already overworked. Many places are now understaffed.

And he may have not called you rude, maybe a different word and was translated that way.

it sounds like you were in Spain and “gave them your list” when you were there? That is a lot different..

There is a hotel I used to stay at in Piedmont that has now put in a restaurant that actually DOES require eating dinners on-site which your masseria does not. They need to do what they can to survive.

I communicate with quite a few restaurants on WhatsApp now.. you could try to do it this way in the future. If the restaurant website has a mobile number listed, you can add it as a contact in WhatsApp and if they are on WhatsApp, they’ll show up. If they aren’t, they won’t.

bilboburgler

I think you have done correctly, however

much as I love Puglia, I got married there, they do not operate a North or Northern European business culture. I always recommend a more chilled laid back attitude in the area. Yes it feels horribly wrong, but all you are seeing is a culture clash.

Que sera sera

It's your dollar, you should spend it like you want to but if you wanted everything to be like it is at home then....

ekscrunchy

Thanks for all the comments. Just to insert a couple of my own:

I live in NYC where many of the top hotels have on-site restaurants. The concierges there are used to booking outside restaurants, so it is not true that USA hotels do not have this service. I do not travel much in the US, but even when we stay in Hampton Inns along the eastern NY-Florida I-95 corridor, they have always booked a restaurant or two if I ask. (Mostly we eat at rustic BBQ places along that route, so no advance bookings needed.)


RialtoGirl: Appreciate your take on this. You always have sane advice and comments. Just to correct one small thing...when I go to Spain I give the hotels my list of restaurants at the time of booking or shortly thereafter. They do know that I travel with food as a primary interest. Last March, the hotels in Jerez, in Vejer, and in Madrid, all of which had restaurants on site, were most gracious to booking outside restaurants. Yes, when I arrived in Madrid, the front desk person mentioned that the hotel had a top restaurant on site, with a Michelin 2-star chef. If I had had more time in the city, I might have tried it, to be courteous. I hope to return next spring so maybe will do that. Your tip on What's App is really appreciated. I have to look into how to do t his because I notice that this app is widely used in Europe. Also Facebook, which I am not on: many smaller restaurants have Facebook pages but not websites.... Honestly I should have just picked up the phone and called these restaurants myself! But now will try to use What's App..

I keep going back to the fact that it would have taken this masserie about 5 minutes or less to phone the restaurants I wanted to visit. One of them is owned by a friend of the masserie owner; this restaurant, in Montegrosso, is famous in Italy and not easy to book. As I said, the only way is to phone them.

I could have phoned the restaurants in question, in Puglia. A tad more difficult and pricey to phone from US but in retrospect, maybe I should have done that in this case. The owner of the masseria knows that food is my interest and we had talks about that years ago.

Again, I appreciate all the comments and think I did the right thing in booking somewhere else.

rialtogrl

Definitely check out WhatsApp. If you are using AirBnB or guesthouses and need to communicate, it is a really good tool. You can see if they read the message, not like an email where you have no idea if they got it or not. It really is how many people are communicating. And if you have a wifi connection, no charge to use it..

joan

"We often go back to places we have stayed before but it usually turns out to be a triumph of hope over experience. "

Uh Oh. Those sound like such words of wisdom. I am scared now! Just re-booked a really cool house in New Jersey for 10 days in September, a quirky place we enjoyed four years ago. Will quirky become irritating? What have I done?

hetismij2

If you use Whatsapp you can also make voice calls with it. I use it to call my family in the UK, no charge.
I hate restaurants that only have a Facebook page. I never use them because I am not on Facebook. I understand why they do it, because it is cheap, but it puts me, and many others off them.

crellston

"I think I did the right thing in booking somewhere else" I am sure you did.

I always used to give restaurants, hotels etc the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to put things right. However, experience has taught me that when thing start off badly, then they usually tend to continue on that same trajectory.Why waste your valuable time on those that dont want to provide the service and facilities you want? There are too many good, professional operations out there that can provide good service and do care for their guest's experiences, to waste time on those that put their own interests before that of their guests.