The basic trip is planned - 14 days in Germany/Austria with overnights - in order, Regensburg (1) in Salzburg (2), Munich (2), Rothenburg (2), Bamberg (3), Oberwesel/Rhine (3). <BR> <BR>I picked those cities from my thorough research of what I wanted to see and do - mainly Germany itself as the museum with some fun, some salt, and some wine on the Rhein added. <BR> <BR>Now I am wondering about those little places that don't make it into the guide books or web searches. Places that have "made" vacations for people, places they will treasure forever that they may have found by accident or by following the suggestion of a local and changing their plans ( I do intend to ask around when I get there!). <BR> <BR>Can anyone offer up some gems near the plkaces I will be visiting? <BR> <BR>Thank you very much! <BR> <BR>2 weeks to go, yeeehawww!

I think you should not miss Salzkamergutt Lakes (Austria), especially a village called Halstatt. As I wrote some days ago in this forum, it is the most beautiful place I know in Europe (but Rothenburg, in a different way, is close).

Your sentiment is in the right place, and maybe someone else will provide you a name of a place or two that they just visited last week. But by definition, you have to "discover" your own "undiscovered" gems. You SHOULD do, what you say you intend to do - - strike up conversations with Europeans, and ask them the places they like to eat, take walks, shop, whatever. <BR> <BR>Hallstatt is beautiful. But not in guidebooks or websites? Maybe not in books on Australia! And a Yahoo search lists 860 websites, most of them touristic in nature. That doesn't mean it isn't worth your time. <BR> <BR>Buy Rick Steves' latest book (Postcards...) on the paradoz of "sharing" info about "undiscovered" places. "Undiscovered" destinations, at least in Europe - - may be largely in your own head - - they will be undiscovered by you, and that's what's important. Places in Europe where they have never seen a non-European would likely be comparable to virginity in a red light district - - very, very rare - - and maybe not all that great, if you did find it! <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex

I think that this forum is useful for people changing opinion about places, hotels, routes, etc. <BR>Of course, everybody has different tastes and preferences, and each person will decide what to do. <BR>When I wrote “you should go to Halstatt”, I only intended to show that I´m convinced it would be a good advice for most people. Some friends of mine I recommended Halstatt were very grateful, because otherwise they would never have gone there (when brazilians like me travel to Austria, they only visit Viena/Salzburg/Innsbruck). <BR>

If you vemnture into the little villages outside Salzburg you will be overwhelmed with the beauty. Here is the URL for my photos of some of the out of the way places we visited as well as the cities. <BR>AUSTRIA http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...3732&a=2701545 <BR>regards Peg.

I was not attacking you Helio - - I was commenting on the elusive goal (yet still very "findable", for each of us, in our own way) of "undiscovered" gems. Many of us find them - - and think that they are "little known". They may be at their best when they have no expectations attached to them whatsoever. <BR> <BR>I have no disagreements with Hallstatt, nor any destination. But in general, and more and more everyday, what Europe has to offer IS "in the books" and if not, it's on the Internet. Not in every case - - but the goal need not be to find some place "undocumented", that's all!

Well, I'll stay out of the theoretical fray here. Since I'm not writing a guidebook (yet) I can guiltlessly send you to my favorite find, as long as you promise not to write a guidebook either. <BR>Pappenheim lies in the Altmühl River valley between Munich and Nuremberg on a piece of land where the river makes a large horseshoe turn. I've never seen it mentioned in any travel literature, but it has a fascinating history, which you'll encounter mostly at its castle, perched in the middle of town high on a hill (helps if you know a little German.) Be sure to see the birds of prey show while you're there (2 per day.) The oldest Carolingian church building in Franconia, the St. Galluskirche, is just across the river from the center of town; it's quite beautiful in its simplicity. Have a beer or a meal at the outdoor terrace restaurant at the Hotel Krone on the river. There's a station there if you're going by train. The town has a helpful tourist office and a website (which was down last time I checked) at www.pappenheim.de. Nearby is Eichstaett with its Residenz palace and the attractive, walled town of Weissenburg, both of which are great for a stroll and a short visit. <BR> <BR>Merry Christmas, happy birthday, and happy travels! <BR> <BR>Russ

Hi! You posed an interesting question. I have been traveling for many years and occasionally have found interesting places, that most Americans have not been to visit. In Austria, we found Graz. A university city in the south of Austria. We went there to spend one night and wound up spending two. It has a baroque facade on many of the buildings. Its old castle was destroyed many years ago and was turned into apleasant restaurant and viewing area of the city. Please read up on it and decide if you would like to visit. there are many other places we have "discovered" including Pirano in Slovenia and Kutna Hora and Telc in the Czech Rep. <BR>Enjoy Austria and Germany, I agree with the choices. Alan

I understand exactly what you mean in gems. You want to soemthing apecialo that not everybody finds and is not touristy. My advice is go to the smaller towns. In Germany outside Munich there is a wonderful place called Konig Sea. It is a place only germans seem to know of. It is a small lake that resembles the fiords of Norway <BR>and has wonderful electric wooden boats that take you to this island. It was one of my most favorite memories of my first trip to Germany 15 years ago. I spent three weeks in Bavaria. Also try <BR>Hintserzarten. It's in the Black Forest. <BR>Have a great trip.

While Rex may be correct that most of the places regarded as worth seeing are in the guide books, we tend to be creatures of habit and to follow like sheep in the tracks of those who have gone to Europe before us. <BR>Whoever heard of an American tourist going to the Harz Mountains, the Eifel, the Westerwald, the Rhoen, the Schwaebische Alb, the Bayerischer Wald etc etc in Germany? I bet they are all written up somewhere, but nobody wants to know. <BR>Do me a favour please Aramis, and when you are in Regensburg take the short trip down the Danube to Walhalla,and then let us know your reaction. I won't say what it is and wont make any promises. <BR>Koenigssee, recommended by Diane is an exraordinarily beautiful lake. It is also reputed to be the place where the Nazis dumped a large amount of their treasure in the closing days of the war, being suitably deep (around 600 ft).

Harzer; <BR> <BR>I have seen many of your postings and I appreciate your efforts to get tourists to see some of the lesser known sites. I have, on occassion, become extremely frustrated in planning this vacation because of a desire not to miss anything special. I think mot people simply do not have enough time, or money to see everything they would like each time they visit Europe - assuming they are lucky enough to be able to return. It often comes down to "bang for buck". <BR> <BR>I have read all of the negative things about Rothenburg so i have planned to not be there in the afternoons when the tour buses disgorge. I will be in Crailsheim, or Nordlingen, or hopefully, som other place I am not aware of theat someone can point me to. <BR> <BR>But I know I have to walk the streets of Rothenburg late in the evening <BR> <BR>I am really only using the cities mentioned as bases and welcome the opportunity to "discover" ( I never thought I was opening a can of worms with that word but I understand the resposnse posted) little known wonders nearby. That is why I would not consider doing this vacation without a car. <BR> <BR>I will do my best to take the trip you suggested - I wish i could spend more time in Regensburg, perhaps I will venture down from Bamberg, but then Coburg..... <BR> <BR>Ah, well, there are worse problems to have, aren't there. <BR> <BR>My next dream vacation is to take the kids over for a month and settle in to a long term apartment rental in a small village. <BR> <BR>May I be so lucky. <BR> <BR>

May you be so lucky Aramis! I did just that in 1974. I had a sabbatical year and took the wife and kids off with me to Europe heading for Germany with no particular place to stay in mind. We ended up in a little spot on the Rhine called Rhoendorf on the opposite side of the river to Bad Godesberg. We rented a very modest flat for a year, went to the local car dealer and bought a second-hand Opel Kadett, and travelled as far as afield as Cadiz, Dubrovnik, UK and Copenhagen on our various trips. We 'discovered' a heap of 'secret places' on day excursions. And we also became something of a feature in the local community. <BR>Hope you make it too.

Your original posting reminds me of many tourists I encounter in America. They come complete with a list of "must-sees" and almost panic when I recommend things that are not on their list. "But how can I keep my schedule if I don't cover things on my list?" they say. One of the finer travel experiences is to encounter the unexpected. Have you checked the Michelin Green Guide to Germany? There are enough places in the vicinity of Bamberg alone to fill 14 days. Be sure to go over to Bayreuth, see nutty Wagner's home, the theatres, and the castle with its water gardens. In Wurzburg, be sure to the Residenz of the Prince-Bishops of Franconia for starters. Rothenburg, often overcrowded with tourists, is worth a day but there are so many off-the-beaten-track places nearby. Schloss Weikersheim, for example.

Ssshhhh, Jim... <BR>http://www.eurotrip.com/destinations...tt2/index.html

Good point KK. But I must say, having just gone down to the local library and borrowed and flipped through the 'Rough Guide to Germany', there are more than enough 'undiscovered gems' in Germany to keep us all busy travelling into the next millennium. Having never looked at a guide book on Germany before, I could almost weep at finding how many places there are that I never been to or even heard of. And Iphofen and Pappenheim which have been mentioned on this forum don't even rate a mention in the index to this pretty comprehensive guide. <BR> <BR>One more poinr: people are forever talking about 'must-sees' and 'must- do's'. There are no 'must-sees' and 'must do's', but there an awful lot of 'must-meets' out there.

This may be a bit late, but here is my two cents worth. My family and I spent a week in Konigsee two years ago. Like Diane mentioned, it is a wonderful place. We were there in mid June and the only tourists we saw were the Germans who came by every morning to ride the boat on the lake. We stayed at the Hotel Schiefmeister (?) It is directly across from the boat ramp and a great hotel. We had two large adjoining rooms - one with a balcony overlooking the lake. Cost for both rooms, with breakfast, was around $100/night. We made several day trips to Salzburg (25 minutes away) and Halstadt. If you do stay in Konigsee, do take the boat ride to the far end of the lake. There is a smaller lake just up from where the boat lets you off. You can walk around this lake and far off into the fields towards a beautiful waterfall. We did this during the week and almost had the whole countryside to ourselves. It was wonderful. <BR>

I think it's wonderful you are going to Bamberg already, since it's not exactly on the top of everybody's list. In that vein, I would also recommend tiny Bad Wimpfen, beautifully placed atop the Neckar River valley and also Schwabish Hall, not too far away and also near the Neckar. Driving along the Neckar River, for my money, is far better than the Rhine. Very pure and pristine. (I've not been along the Mosel yet, alas.) I think the tinier the place, the purer the experience.

My favourite German city is Wuerzberg which would be between Rothenburg and Frankfurt. I didn't notice it on your itinerary. <BR> <BR>The gem would be Creglingen, a small-town near Rothenburg which contains the Riemenschneider altar in the Herrgottkirche. A masterpiece.

That's a great idea, the Riemenschneider altar. It is truly wonderous. Worth going far out of your way to see.