Unauthorized porters in Naples train station
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:17 AM
#21
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<i>"If the men perform a service much like a porter why not tip them even if they are not real porters. I always tip doormen and porters, don't you?"</i>
If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you.
Scam artists aren't hanging around "hoping" you'll tip them. They often demand the money and set the price and intimidate until they get paid. This isn't tipping, it's undercover extortion.
<i>"No, this is not an issue in the train stations of Venice and Rome."</i>
It most certainly is an issue in Venice and Rome and has been for many years. There are periods of crackdown but these typically remain temporary. Unfortunately, most of the victims of this scam don't post here on fodors (some have). But, believe me, they're out there.
It's never good to have your guard completely down in any train station around the world. The best advice is try to remain alert at all times. Francesco_m is right to keep the dialogue going.
If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you.
Scam artists aren't hanging around "hoping" you'll tip them. They often demand the money and set the price and intimidate until they get paid. This isn't tipping, it's undercover extortion.
<i>"No, this is not an issue in the train stations of Venice and Rome."</i>
It most certainly is an issue in Venice and Rome and has been for many years. There are periods of crackdown but these typically remain temporary. Unfortunately, most of the victims of this scam don't post here on fodors (some have). But, believe me, they're out there.
It's never good to have your guard completely down in any train station around the world. The best advice is try to remain alert at all times. Francesco_m is right to keep the dialogue going.
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:28 AM
#22
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i agree with NYC completely.
the problem is not about giving tips or not.
i just dont do business with random ppl walking about train stations. especially with ppl i have not approached myself.
maybe some have had their luggeage carryed by them and not stolen..maybe you were lucky, a train manager might have suddenly appeared on the platform or a cop.
my advice is to be very assertive and forget manners or politeness with these likes. they prey on civil and sheepish tourists.
the problem is not about giving tips or not.
i just dont do business with random ppl walking about train stations. especially with ppl i have not approached myself.
maybe some have had their luggeage carryed by them and not stolen..maybe you were lucky, a train manager might have suddenly appeared on the platform or a cop.
my advice is to be very assertive and forget manners or politeness with these likes. they prey on civil and sheepish tourists.
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:37 AM
#23
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finally, if real porters and real waiters scam ppl with change or rob their belongings,or just act arrogant you can always report them to their manager.
who do these crooks have to report to?
PS honest italians help you for free.once i needed directions at a major station, i asked a guy with his wife under an umbrella in a doorway.the guy actually took us with the umbrella to the right place so we wouldnt get wet. wasnt that nice?
who do these crooks have to report to?
PS honest italians help you for free.once i needed directions at a major station, i asked a guy with his wife under an umbrella in a doorway.the guy actually took us with the umbrella to the right place so we wouldnt get wet. wasnt that nice?
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:53 AM
#24
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"If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you."
Someday maybe I'll take the time to study the uniforms and fashions of railway employees and then when I get on a train and a man in a uniform helps me with my bag I will instantly KNOW that he is not wearing the appropriate uniform. But meanwhile, I guess I'm just too stupid to know the difference, so yes, woe is me.
I guess my failure to realize he wasn't a salaried employee is a result of my not asking him to show me a pay stub before he touched my luggage. Next time I'll be sure to do that.
Oh I wish I were as smart as some people who somehow instantly would have known that the person in the uniform was a scam artist and not a salaried employee.
Someday maybe I'll take the time to study the uniforms and fashions of railway employees and then when I get on a train and a man in a uniform helps me with my bag I will instantly KNOW that he is not wearing the appropriate uniform. But meanwhile, I guess I'm just too stupid to know the difference, so yes, woe is me.
I guess my failure to realize he wasn't a salaried employee is a result of my not asking him to show me a pay stub before he touched my luggage. Next time I'll be sure to do that.
Oh I wish I were as smart as some people who somehow instantly would have known that the person in the uniform was a scam artist and not a salaried employee.
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:58 AM
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i dont think NYC was replying to you patrick.
if the conmen disguse themselves then its understandable that you would think they are staff.
however the better their disguise the more they will be risking that trenitalia/circumvesiuviana will ask them to leave the station
if the conmen disguse themselves then its understandable that you would think they are staff.
however the better their disguise the more they will be risking that trenitalia/circumvesiuviana will ask them to leave the station
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:06 AM
#26
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"i dont think NYC was replying to you patrick"
Huh? Nor was I replying to an individual either. I was replying to an open comment, that seemed to suggest anyone should be able to tell the difference. I couldn't, so I took it to apply to me as well as anyone else it was meant for. Shouldn't I have?
Huh? Nor was I replying to an individual either. I was replying to an open comment, that seemed to suggest anyone should be able to tell the difference. I couldn't, so I took it to apply to me as well as anyone else it was meant for. Shouldn't I have?
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:06 AM
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Thanks, francesco, for bringing this up. I've always felt secretly foolish for allowing my husband and me to be scammed by a fake porter in the Naples train station. We're usually very alert travellers and yet this very official-, very helpful-appearing "porter" had our bags out of our hands (with our blessings) in two seconds flat! He led us to our compartment, set our bags down and then proceeded to shake us down for an outrageous tip! He turned aggressive when we did not give him what he wanted (which was the correct tip; we know what's appropriate compensation). We gave him the money he demanded because we wanted to get rid of him. There was no one to complain to or ask help from because we were the first ones on that particular train car. It left a sour taste in my mouth. No one likes being made a fool of.
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:13 AM
#28
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"We gave him the money he demanded because we wanted to get rid of him."
No offense, but I think that is the basic problem. These guys will continue to do what they do because people will break down and give them money. They have no qualms in being demanding because it works for them. I have no qualms about ignoring them, or going to look for a conductor or official to report them while they rant on and on. Or simply going to the door of the train and calling "POLICE" should work very well also.
I feel it is not your fault that you were fooled by them, nor does it indicate you weren't being alert or aware. But once you become aware of the scam, it would be good to stand up to them.
No offense, but I think that is the basic problem. These guys will continue to do what they do because people will break down and give them money. They have no qualms in being demanding because it works for them. I have no qualms about ignoring them, or going to look for a conductor or official to report them while they rant on and on. Or simply going to the door of the train and calling "POLICE" should work very well also.
I feel it is not your fault that you were fooled by them, nor does it indicate you weren't being alert or aware. But once you become aware of the scam, it would be good to stand up to them.
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:20 AM
#29
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" comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist " i think he was referring to the conceptual difference not physical difference, but NYC is the best person to confirm this.
personally i dont think we should encourage unofficial porters /car park attendents/ tour guides etc.i wouldnt choose to use them in my home neighbourhood,let alone when in an unfamiliar country.i think the best framework for the provision of these services is with a business taking responsibility for them and that has a reputation to lose.
personally i dont think we should encourage unofficial porters /car park attendents/ tour guides etc.i wouldnt choose to use them in my home neighbourhood,let alone when in an unfamiliar country.i think the best framework for the provision of these services is with a business taking responsibility for them and that has a reputation to lose.
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:31 AM
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Patrick, you are entirely correct! That's why I stated we felt "secretly foolish." Foolish because we caved in. And that's why I'm glad francesco has posted this. Maybe if other travellers are aware of this, they'd stand firm and not let themselves be taken advantage of. My husband and I are, as I've said, fairly savvy travellers. We were shocked that we fell for such a simple-minded scam and it made us not think.
Feb 26th, 2005, 07:46 AM
#32
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madman:
I think it was stated in at least one post that the fee the scam artists asked for was 5 €.
And no, they don't "do this all over Europe." In my experience, it's mainly an Italian thing. But there are other, similar scams in other countries - witness the guys in train stations in France who prey on people trying to use the sometimes counterintuitive automatic train ticket machines. They'll approach you and offer to buy the ticket for you and then demand money, or they'll offer to sell you metro tickets they pull out of your pockets -already used tickets.
Savvy travelers know that train stations are a breeding ground for scam artists and are accordingly wary of anyone who just walks up and offers to help. That said, I've had perfectly honest Europeans help me out in train stations, too. Learning to tell the difference can be tricky.
I think it was stated in at least one post that the fee the scam artists asked for was 5 €.
And no, they don't "do this all over Europe." In my experience, it's mainly an Italian thing. But there are other, similar scams in other countries - witness the guys in train stations in France who prey on people trying to use the sometimes counterintuitive automatic train ticket machines. They'll approach you and offer to buy the ticket for you and then demand money, or they'll offer to sell you metro tickets they pull out of your pockets -already used tickets.
Savvy travelers know that train stations are a breeding ground for scam artists and are accordingly wary of anyone who just walks up and offers to help. That said, I've had perfectly honest Europeans help me out in train stations, too. Learning to tell the difference can be tricky.
Feb 26th, 2005, 12:29 PM
#33
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I post the entire quote from peeky before I comment on the concept of comparing professionals to scam artists (you were correct, got1tiel) and, still, some people see and hear something entirely different. What can I say? I just consider the source and, well, whatever. Some people enjoy looking foolish.
Let me be clearer (if that's possible); I was NOT offering any opinion on anyone's ability to identify a scam artist who looks and acts like a legitimate porter. I've been a victim of this artful scam and I know first-hand how clever and convincing the good ones are. Please, learn the scams and travel with care.
Let me be clearer (if that's possible); I was NOT offering any opinion on anyone's ability to identify a scam artist who looks and acts like a legitimate porter. I've been a victim of this artful scam and I know first-hand how clever and convincing the good ones are. Please, learn the scams and travel with care.
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:01 PM
#34
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I didn't care whether the man who helped me was a "professional" hired by the train station or not. He helped me and I appreciated it so he deserved a tip, IMHO. Now that I have thought it over, one time another man helped me lift my bag onto the train, helped me find my seat, kicked out someone sitting in my seat (in Italian) and held out his hand for a tip. Fine with me, I tipped him.
I probably would be singing another tune if one of them had run off with my luggage but it didn't happen and I wouldn't want someone grabbing my luggage and running off to the correct train either, but the fellows who have helped me have always asked permission and I have agreed, so I'll pay the few euro.
I have had someone from the public help me on arrival in St. Petersburg too, he didn't want a tip and I didn't have any money yet either so that worked out ok.
BTW, I don't blindly trust people, I stood by my luggage before the train pulled out in Rome and I am glad I did because I am sure two young men had a scam going re tossing luggage out of the train to someone waiting on the platform.
I probably would be singing another tune if one of them had run off with my luggage but it didn't happen and I wouldn't want someone grabbing my luggage and running off to the correct train either, but the fellows who have helped me have always asked permission and I have agreed, so I'll pay the few euro.
I have had someone from the public help me on arrival in St. Petersburg too, he didn't want a tip and I didn't have any money yet either so that worked out ok.
BTW, I don't blindly trust people, I stood by my luggage before the train pulled out in Rome and I am glad I did because I am sure two young men had a scam going re tossing luggage out of the train to someone waiting on the platform.
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:11 PM
#35
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Author: NYCFoodSnob
Date: 02/26/2005, 10:17 am
Message: "If the men perform a service much like a porter why not tip them even if they are not real porters. I always tip doormen and porters, don't you?"
If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you."
I apologize. What was I thinking? Whatever made me read this post and think the person writing it was suggesting that "If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you."?
Obviously now that I read it again, that isn't what was said at all. Again my apologies for failing to understand what was meant by it.
Date: 02/26/2005, 10:17 am
Message: "If the men perform a service much like a porter why not tip them even if they are not real porters. I always tip doormen and porters, don't you?"
If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you."
I apologize. What was I thinking? Whatever made me read this post and think the person writing it was suggesting that "If you can't comprehend the difference between a salaried employee of any given service business and a scam artist then woe is you."?
Obviously now that I read it again, that isn't what was said at all. Again my apologies for failing to understand what was meant by it.
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:35 PM
#36
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In the first place, you have to think, "help" at an Italian train station? Not going to happen. I have been in and out of Italian train stations too many times to count, but the ONLY time anyone has approached me to "help" me with my baggage was in Naples. I was transferring to the train to take me to Sorrento, and the man, who did appear to be in a uniform, approached me to imply, basically, that at my age, I was too feeble to take my roll-on 21" suitcase down the shallow flight of stairs by myself. I picked the suitcase over my head and replied (in Italian) that I could probably handle this on my own. He still argued, insisting that he, and only he, could show me the way to the correct platform. I said 'basta," and left him in the dust.
I have lived in Italy for six years, and I have visted for the last 20. I have been in most major train strations, and I have only had this scam pulled on me once. In Naples. Trust me. Most train employees are not going to go out of their way to be helpful.
I have lived in Italy for six years, and I have visted for the last 20. I have been in most major train strations, and I have only had this scam pulled on me once. In Naples. Trust me. Most train employees are not going to go out of their way to be helpful.
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:48 PM
#37
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SantaChiara, I am glad that your long experience confirms mine, which also goes back many years.
But you should be aware that NYCFoodSnob has stated that "It [unauthorized-porter-in-uniform scam] most certainly is an issue in Venice and Rome and has been for many years."
But you should be aware that NYCFoodSnob has stated that "It [unauthorized-porter-in-uniform scam] most certainly is an issue in Venice and Rome and has been for many years."
Feb 26th, 2005, 02:34 PM
#38
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"In the first place, you have to think, "help" at an Italian train station? Not going to happen."
(lol) This is true but certainly not always. Maybe my legs are prettier than yours.
But more to the point; is every first-time visitor required to know that Italians don't help at train stations and be absolutely sure of it? (I believe we covered cynical in another thread.)
What about those veteran altruists who continue to travel with hope in their heart? The ones who say, "Maybe today will be the day I meet that nice Italian gentleman who will help me lift my luggage on the train in Rome and not demand 20 Euro."
ps Have I provoked another whizzing match? The insecurity on this thread is almost as funny as the concept of tipping a scam artist. To each his own, I guess.
(lol) This is true but certainly not always. Maybe my legs are prettier than yours.
But more to the point; is every first-time visitor required to know that Italians don't help at train stations and be absolutely sure of it? (I believe we covered cynical in another thread.)
What about those veteran altruists who continue to travel with hope in their heart? The ones who say, "Maybe today will be the day I meet that nice Italian gentleman who will help me lift my luggage on the train in Rome and not demand 20 Euro."
ps Have I provoked another whizzing match? The insecurity on this thread is almost as funny as the concept of tipping a scam artist. To each his own, I guess.
Feb 26th, 2005, 03:46 PM
#39
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I'm finding out few people have had some experience with the "unauthorized porters". In my opinion it would be fair to tip somebody who provides you a service, if you believe he deserves it, even if the local burocracy has not given that guy an official permit or license (I know of many people who have a licenses just because they knew the right people or paied the right person under the table, and other guys who deserved a sort of authorization, and ended up having nothing. So...). What I don't think is fair (and that happens in Naples station, and maybe other places too), is when one of this guys looks like he wants to help you, and ends up asking you money: that's not a deal, expecially when he would NOT want to leave. And we know that people won't feel as confident to say "NO, GO AWAY" when just arrived in a new city where they don't really know how things work and what the customs are. That's why I'm glad this post is being read and answered so when people will get to Naples station will already know what that is about!
These porters ask different amount of money after they've seen wether you were on 1st or 2nd class, wether you are in your 20s or in your 50s, wether you have a back-pack or a Luis Vitton suitcase, wether you're on your own or you have a driver waiting for you. I remember of one of them asking for 50000 lire (25Euros) few years ago for carrying 3 pieces of luggage on his shoulder and sweating like a fountain (maybe he could do that on command!), and probably he tried because he thought those people were not familiar with liras...
One more thing: "In the first place, you have to think, "help" at an Italian train station? Not going to happen." ...I'm not sure on what basis you say that. Southern people particularly are well known to go out of their way to help people out...and I'd have plenty of examples for that, so, please, don't generalize...
These porters ask different amount of money after they've seen wether you were on 1st or 2nd class, wether you are in your 20s or in your 50s, wether you have a back-pack or a Luis Vitton suitcase, wether you're on your own or you have a driver waiting for you. I remember of one of them asking for 50000 lire (25Euros) few years ago for carrying 3 pieces of luggage on his shoulder and sweating like a fountain (maybe he could do that on command!), and probably he tried because he thought those people were not familiar with liras...
One more thing: "In the first place, you have to think, "help" at an Italian train station? Not going to happen." ...I'm not sure on what basis you say that. Southern people particularly are well known to go out of their way to help people out...and I'd have plenty of examples for that, so, please, don't generalize...
Feb 27th, 2005, 03:49 AM
#40
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I must completely agree with Francesco said about Southern people being helpful in Italy. On fact on my very first trip to Naples, I was lucky to sit next to a lovely Neapolitan couple on the plane, they were gracious and friendly, and stayed with me in the Rome airport to make sure I changed planes with no problem. And I must say that in the Naples train station, I have often asked local commuters for help. Directions, help with a cell phone problem, how to get to the CIrcumsuviana, and directing me to the right bus for the ferries. In all of those interactions, I've never had anyone be less than polite and helpful. Although the general Naples personality sometimes might seem aggressive, it is the normal means of exprssion for local people. Being frim NYC might have helped me, because I wasn't put off by this at all.
I would never accept help with my luggage in any train station, unless I approached the person first, to me, that is just basic common sense, isn't it?
If I do accept help from that person, I would feel fine about giving a tip, in an amount I think is right, and if they got pushy about it, I would mirror that right back at them, no problem,
I will also add that some of the elderly gentlemen in blue jackets in the Naples train station are probably not there for the fun of it, they actually need to make a dollar somehow!
I am also glad that Francesco has explained that many times, under the Italian system, some people are able to get licenses for various professions just by having the right connections, while other equally or more qualified fellows have no hope of getting in the door. It's always good when someone shows us how to look beyond the surface of things into the realities of local culture. Thanks for your valuable insights, Francesco.
I would never accept help with my luggage in any train station, unless I approached the person first, to me, that is just basic common sense, isn't it?
If I do accept help from that person, I would feel fine about giving a tip, in an amount I think is right, and if they got pushy about it, I would mirror that right back at them, no problem,
I will also add that some of the elderly gentlemen in blue jackets in the Naples train station are probably not there for the fun of it, they actually need to make a dollar somehow!
I am also glad that Francesco has explained that many times, under the Italian system, some people are able to get licenses for various professions just by having the right connections, while other equally or more qualified fellows have no hope of getting in the door. It's always good when someone shows us how to look beyond the surface of things into the realities of local culture. Thanks for your valuable insights, Francesco.
