Six of us are planning a two-week trip to Great Britain in September, and have come up with the following tentative itinerary: <BR> <BR>Day 1, 2: London, Tower; Westminster Abbey, V&A Museum; British Museum <BR>Day 3: Leeds Castle & Hastings <BR>Day 4: Salisbury, Stonehenge, Avebury <BR>Day 5: Bath / Glastonbury (I think they're close) <BR>Day 6: Stratford / Warwick Castle <BR>Day 7: Chester / Caernavon <BR>Day 8: Leeds (Royal Armory) <BR>Day 9: York / Fountains Abbey <BR>Day 10, 11, 12 Scotland, Carlisle: Threave Castle, Kirkcudbright, <BR>Caerverloch Castle <BR> Edinburgh: Edinburgh Castle; Stirling Castle; Holyrood <BR>Anything else in the loop between Carlisle, Glasgow, Edinburgh <BR>Day 13: Night Train to London, <BR> Extra Day in London <BR> <BR>Is this too ambitious? We're all medieval history buffs, so the choices were made to reflect that somewhat. Any other must-sees? <BR> <BR>We decided fairly early on that we were not going to manage the Highlands this trip, and two members of the group have ties to Kirkcudbright and Caerverloch Castle. <BR> <BR>We think we have a lead on a cottage in the Cotswolds, and are considering using that as a base for the first part of the trip. If that falls through, we'll look for somewhere outside of London. Or are we better off staying in B&B's closer to the specific areas. We're planning to rent a van for at least a part of the trip, but would like to take advantage of public transport where appropriate. <BR> <BR>Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. <BR> <BR>

Gosh, that is making me tired and I like to move around a lot! You aren't allowing for any driving time between these places (along with finding a new room each day) and then packing in the sights. you will need a vacation when you get home! <BR> <BR>especially your plans to go from Cotswolds, to Wales, then to Leeds, then York - in a couple of days. <BR> <BR>You might want to decide now which ones you COULD do without, and see how your itinerary fits after a few days. Be ready to adjust/drop - and I have found that the adjusting typically comes at the end (in other words, you might not see too much of Scotland at all). <BR> <BR>Don't feel bound to an itinerary. If you are in a certain area and love it, don't think you have to pack up and leave the next day just to keep on track. You'll be back. <BR> <BR>Your idea of day tripping is good - if some of those areas are close enough, stay in one place for a minimum of two nights (more is better). <BR> <BR>PERSONALLY, I would cut off your plans for day 7 and 8, and spend a little more time in the Cotswolds (see Coventry if you can) and York. but you know why you want to go where you want to go. <BR> <BR>have fun...

Janie <BR> <BR>I won't comment on the English part of your trip but as for Scotland... <BR> <BR>I live in Edinburgh and visited the castle only a few months ago - it's still very busy at the time of year you will be visiting but well worth the trip, 3 hour minimum I would say. <BR> <BR>I was also at Threave and Caerlaverock last saturday, both well worth a visit but Threave, including the boat across to the castle should only detain you an hour at the most. Caerlaverock, only 25 mins away from Threave by car, should only take you at most an hour and a half including a walk on the nature trail to the 'old' castle. <BR> <BR>Stirling, half an hour out of Edinburgh up the M9 is stunning and you would also be able to visit Airth castle too. <BR> <BR>For the Scotland part of the trip, I dont think you are doing too much. <BR> <BR>Tony

If you are all olympic athletes and require only 3 or 4 hours sleep a night you should be OK. Seriously, you might want to cut back and use your plan as a wish list rather than what you feel you have to do. If it was my trip I would not go to Scotland, as much as I love it, but spent the bulk of the time south of York. In any event enjoy and let us know how the trip went.

Yow! That's a pretty packed itinerary. I think you've picked some wonderful places, but here are some thoughts: <BR> <BR>1. I would recommend putting all your London days together at the end of the trip. Start with the countryside; it's more comfortable and peaceful when you're dealing with adjusting to a new country, jet lag, etc. <BR> <BR>2. Bath deserves a day of its own; don't try to pack it in with Glastonbury, which also warrants a good amount of time. I did a full day in Bath, basing myself there, and then took Badgerline buses the next day to Glastonbury and Wells, returning to Bath for the night. <BR> <BR>3. Basing yourself in/near the Cotswolds for Bath, Stratford, etc., would probably work nicely. You'll be doing a bit of a long drive for Salisbury, though, I would say. Trust me when I say that a drive from, for example, Bath to Chipping Campden (or Chipping Campden to Bath) is a lot longer than you might think. My recommendation would be eliminating Salisbury from this section of your itinerary. <BR> <BR>4. I would definitely *not* stay just outside of London if you're planning to do multiple days in the west country (Bath, Stratford, Glastonbury, etc). The back-and-forthing may be doable but it would be exhausting and pointless. <BR> <BR>I haven't done much traveling in the north of England, so I can't speak personally to the feasibility of that part of your itinerary, but...what do you refer to when you say "Chester/Caernarvon"? Do you plan to drive from the west of England up to Chester, and then see Caernarvon Castle in Wales, all in the same day? I can't imagine that's feasible. <BR> <BR>I know there's a lot you want to see, but at some point you'll need to cut something out or you won't enjoy what you are seeing...you'll just be whizzing past things and trying to stay on schedule.

I agree with Roger, you will be too busy to really enjoy each place. Your idea about spending a week at a cottage is a perfect idea. Get a good map and find an area that is central to some of the places that you want to see. You won't be able to see everywhere that you want to go but you will find places that you did not plan on that will be a wonderful surprise. We did one of those see everything in 11 days kind of trips and we were exhausted by the 9th day (and we were young, 25 yrs if that makes a differnence) You may have to save Scotland for another trip, or just go to Scotland. Don't try to over-do, just tell yourself that you will get back to the places that you weren't able to see someday. Europe isn't going anywhere.

If you can stand even more agreement, you need to give yourselves more time in Bath. I spent only 1-1/2 days there and wished for at least one more. I drove there from the Cotswolds and it's quite a distance. Organizing a group of six also requires a bit more time than traveling solo or as a duo. Plus, if you've never navigated a van on the opposite side of the road, it takes a little getting used to it. If you're interested in a place in the Cotswolds, we stayed at a fabulous place 10 minutes from Chipping Camden & 20 minutes from Stratford-on-Avon (an excellent place, with terrific owners and beautiful surroundings). I agree with the earlier message that you should group all of your London days at the end. Easing into the trip in the countryside is so relaxing. <BR> <BR>Feel free to email if you would like more info on England (I haven't been to Scotland yet). Though, I'm out of the country from tomorrow through mid-June. Whatever you do, have a wonderful vacation.

Whew...I'm just tired thinking about this itinerary. It is extremely ambitious. <BR> <BR>I would spend time in London last - get out to the countryside to get acclimated to the time change. <BR> <BR>Note on your Chester/Caernavon. Chester is at the eastern border of Wales and Caernavon is on the western coast. That would be pushing it.

<BR> You really should consider a sidetrip to the Lake District. Have been there twice and will go again. Truly magical. Think you could fit it in but may have to omit a castle or two. You may want to consider renting the van outside London. Traffic is bad...

If you want to see more than just the roads, choose a location and use it as a touring base - the last poster has it right there. Bath's great, but it's strongest on roman and georgian architecture; if mediaeval is your main interest then the Cotswold area is a better base; the roman's were pretty strong there, too - lots of good remains in pretty scenery. I recommend a day spent between Stow-on-the-Wold (mediaeval buldings & church) and Cirencester (roman museum, amphitheatre and mediaeval town / church) calling in at the Chedworth Roman Villa and Northleach Church en route from one to the other. You could also take in Bourton-on-the-Water at the same time; it's a tourist trap but a picturesque one. Worth buying the Ordanance Survey Tourist Map of The Cotswolds and really exploring; nearly every town and village has its gems. My favourite mediaeval Cathedral is Wells, about two hours' drive to the south; stunning staircase to Library and x-shaped internal arches plus ancient clock and swans who swim to the gatehouse of the Bishops'Palace and ring a bell to be fed! Oxford's good on mediaval college buildings and modern bookshops. Glastonbury is nearby, geographically, although possibly off-the-map culturally - new-age hype tending to hide genuine interest, but once you've seen the Tor rising from the plain you'll just have to go there and quite right too. Stonehenge and Avebury could similarly make a day trip from a Cotswold base. Tewksbury is also worth a look; Abbey Church holds tombs assorted nobles killed in battle, 1471, including Prince of Wales (this was a decider in the Wars of the Roses). Ruins of Hales Abbey not as spectacular as the northern Cistercian foundations at Fountains and Riveaux, it's true, but overall you'll get a lot of history in a managable area. I've got friends in the area; e-mail me if you like! A van would be a better option for getting around than public transport; more flexible and probably more economical between six. Would you like me to try and find out possible hire rates? I've got to make some similar enquiries for myself soon.

As a native, I must admit that I don't have the same violent reaction to your suggested itinerary that the others have had, although some of your drives will be a bit long. Provided that you don't mind being on the move, plan the route properly and don't use a base, but instead stay in places in a logical order, it should be okay. However, I would make the following changes to your running order in England: <BR> <BR>Day 3: Leeds Castle & Hastings (delete Hastings - it is a long way from anywhere and not really worth going to - the trip to Salisbury from Hastings will be very hard work, although you will see a lot of Southern England)(why don't you drive the 150 miles or so and stay overnight in Oxford? Then....) <BR>Day 6: Stratford / Warwick Castle <BR>Day 4: Salisbury, Stonehenge, Avebury (Stratford to Salisbury takes you right through the Cotswolds - a slow drive though) <BR>Day 5: Bath / Glastonbury (I think Glastonbury is overrated) <BR>Day 7: Chester / Caernavon <BR>Day 8: Leeds (Royal Armory)(Caernarfon to Leeds is another very long drive) <BR>Day 9: York / Fountains Abbey (Fountains is magnificent) <BR>Hope this makes sense.

I won't beat a dead horse as far as your itinerary goes, so I'll just recommend that you don't miss the Ceremony of the Keys at the Tower. It's a great slice of history, and a completely different experience than you'd get during the day.

Hi, Janie, <BR>At the risk of being the skunk, etc., (but I'm really a nice guy) herewith some observations: <BR> <BR>1. These places have been here for hundreds of years and are not about to vanish. The planes fly every day. Plan your next visit instead of getting frantic with your schedule. <BR> <BR>2. With a big group some logistic issues will arise, such as not everyone mustering in the hotel lobby simultaneously, needing 2 cabs for everything, somebody having a migraine, etc.. Using bases and day trips instead of the forced-march approach can reduce the risk of needing sudden major rescheduling for days ahead because of some (maybe minor) logistic problem. You can switch destinations for a day or simply hang out while the rest of the group goes off to rub brass or something. <BR> <BR>3. It will all blur. If you're coming from the US you will be tired for the first few days anyway, and by starting with the London sights I fear the fatigue may even last longer. There are no quiet days at the Tower of London, trust me, and London has more than its share of big city hassles. The British Museum is a half to full day experience alone, unless you want to dash from mummy to manuscript to Magna Carta at a trot. <BR> <BR>4. Julian's point about zigzags is right on. The distances look small on the map, but add parking searches, lunch, banking, missed turns, relativistic time dilation in a few roundabouts, and you may find yourselves dashing through the countryside in order to get to the next stopover, never mind the best part of rural Britain, which is not on the A- or M- routes. <BR> <BR>So, Mr. LePew, what's your solution? <BR> <BR>Well, a couple of (off the wall? and quite personal) recommendations. <BR> <BR>Do London last. Lose the wheels, each to follow their own drummer, be it to the Tower or Liberty’s. You will be ready for city and culture, rested (or not) and after a few days on the road you will be less likely to look left and miss the big red bus coming from the right. <BR> <BR>Consider going east and north instead of south and west. Now I know everybody loves Bath and the Cotswolds (me too) but that's the problem. Many warriors, kimosabe. East Anglia, on the other hand, is far less touristy, great medieval towns and villages, scenic drives, and generally drier than the west. Cambridge is a magical place, day trips possible to Ely or even Lincoln for the cathedral-hungry, but many country lanes for exploring or paths for walking. Why not find a nice place near Cambridge (from Heathrow it’s a couple of hours drive) and settle in there for a peaceful introductory two or three days. Use the AA’s hotel/B&B/pub accommodation listings at www.theaa.co.uk/hotels/. <BR> <BR>From there York is easily reached, day trips to Leeds or Durham (You want cathedral? We got cathedral!) Then up to Scotland, Edinburgh for the base. (Look for Culross on the map for a restored medieval Scottish village). <BR> <BR>Go back down the west side if you want, even to the Bath/Cotswolds area, finishing up in the south of England. If you still want Stonehenge (I think overrated personally) you can do a day tour from London, or Salisbury or (one of my faves) Brighton for the Royal Pavilion, or… <BR> <BR>Consider this as a great introduction to a wonderful island, and keep thinking about what you want to see on the next visit. <BR> <BR>All the best.

It's alot of driving, but I think you can do it. <BR> <BR>I agree that Hastings isn't much (actually I think Battle is where you might want to go, although not much there either) <BR> <BR>Half a day in Bath was enough for me. (See the Wells Cathdral on way from Glastonbury). <BR> <BR>You can drive through the Cotswolds with a couple of short stops and see quite a bit (I know, you can spend much more time there - I hope for a couple of weeks some year). Straford can be done in a couple of hours as can Warwick. <BR> <BR>I'm glad to see you include Threave Castle - My Favorite. As Tony mentioned, Caeverlock is nearby and can be seen the same morning/afternoon. Have a great trip

Hi-- If you are interested in the 1066 stuff you want to go to Battle. Battle Abbey and the battlefield around it are wonderful. Pevensey castle is also nearby as is my favorite garden around the ruins of Scotney Castle. You might also want to check out Rye. But I wouldn't skip Battle-- it was a highlight for me and I'm a doctoral student in medieval history.

Hi, <BR> <BR>to add in another opinion, I'll tell you my experiences & judge for yourself: <BR> <BR>One trip to the UK I spent three weeks there, with a car for 2 weeks only. <BR> <BR>I spent one day in London to get one good night's sleep before I drove anywhere. (and, quite by chance, met a person who has since become a good friend and traveling companion) <BR> <BR>I picked up the car & took off. I had only a rough itinerary, which was arranged in logical driving order. I wasn't worried about number of days spent, I figured I would adjust as I went along (which I did - it pays to be flexible. of course traveling alone you can do whatever you want). <BR> <BR>First stop - drove from London to Land's End (Marazion) in one fell swoop. If I remember correctly, it may have been a 5-6 hour drive (this was 4 years ago). I stayed overnight, checked out Land's End, Marazion/St. Michael's Mount, etc. <BR> <BR>I took off for the Cotswolds. I stopped in Exeter briefly to see the Cathedral there on the way, and kept going. I stayed in Sherbourne (more or less central to Stratford, Warwick castle, Coventry) for a few days. The B&B was lovely, I can give you info if you like. (I have posted info on it here, elsewhere too). <BR> <BR>After that, I took off for North Wales. I stayed in Betwys-y-Coed & explored from there - Llanberis & Snowdon National Park. I took a train up & hiked down Mount Snowdon (highly recommended, I hope I have the names correct). <BR> <BR>After that, I spent some time in the Lake District, staying in Windermere. Marvelous hiking there, BEAUTIFUL lake views. <BR> <BR>I went straight up to Scotland after that, stayed one night on the western side, in Irvine. Got up early the next morning & headed to Edinburgh - it was August so I spent a few days there, checking out various performances at the Edinburgh International Festival. (do not miss this if you go in August!) <BR> <BR>After that, on to York (via Hadrian's Wall - a good stop). I spent a few days in York & poked around there - including a day's country drive into "James Herriot Country" - I loved this, you really get off the beaten track and see a lot of pretty views. <BR> <BR>Off to Cambridge next, spent a few days there (partially cuz I got sick & spent a full day in bed, too! uck). <BR> <BR>By that time my two weeks was up & I took the car back to London. My last full week was in London. <BR> <BR>I hope I haven't bored you with this - I can give you more interesting details if you like - but I will say, that itinerary was just fine. I did not feel stressed out and constantly on the go - I did drive a lot, explore all the little backroads & etc - but I made a point of staying at least 2 nights everywhere (with a couple of exceptions) and that really helped. It is much better to stay at least 2 nights - otherwise you are packing up EVERY morning, and EVERY night you are making calls ahead to see who can take you next for the night. <BR> <BR>anyway... give us a trip report! <BR> <BR>Beth

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions. We're getting together this weekend, and this will help quite a bit. I like the idea of doing London last, and think I see a couple of things we can cull. <BR> <BR>We can't cull Scotland - my husband will go on strike if we do since he's a member of Clan Maxwell. <BR> <BR>I thought this looked a bit too ambitious. I will post again once we've made revisions. <BR> <BR>Corinne: Any information you come up with on van hire rates would be appreciated. Thanks for the offer!