TripAdvisor is now warning of hotel manipulation
Oct 7th, 2008, 06:51 AM
#22
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luvtotravel wrote: "... a lot of reviews had the word definitely spelled definately. I think it unlikely so many people would spell the same word wrong."
It's one of the most commonly misspelt words. Do a search on this site for "definately" and you will get hundreds of hits.
It's one of the most commonly misspelt words. Do a search on this site for "definately" and you will get hundreds of hits.
Oct 7th, 2008, 07:56 AM
#23
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It's true that "definately" is a common misspelling, but I think it's a good point that if numerous successive reviews all had both that same word and the same misspelling, it's somewhat suspicious.
Challiman, I was happy to hear you had a good experience in Vienna even in the cold.
Challiman, I was happy to hear you had a good experience in Vienna even in the cold.
Oct 7th, 2008, 08:24 AM
#24
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the misspells are definitely a clue. i will definitely pay more attention to repeat misspells of the same word when looking for a pattern, sp suspicious or anonymous posts. i post on another professional/trade message board where the posters are anonymous and sometimes wonder if the posters are responding to themselves.
back to TA, i've checked it in the past and had been pleased with the objectiveness of the reviews. i posted a review once on a hotel we stayed in asia and received a tshirt from TA ( i wonder: just for posting? ). weird but true...
back to TA, i've checked it in the past and had been pleased with the objectiveness of the reviews. i posted a review once on a hotel we stayed in asia and received a tshirt from TA ( i wonder: just for posting? ). weird but true...
Oct 7th, 2008, 09:50 AM
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I often read tripadvisor for a guide to a hotel, however it's important to remember that these comments are highly subjective and posters will normally only post when they have a very bad experience or a fantastic experience.
Many comments about the number of bacon rashers or the kids toys in the garden were untidy, which are 2 I have seen this week are quite meaningless and should in no way influence a potential visitor either way.lol
So I just read them and take many of the things with a pinch of salt.
The only time they are really meaningful is if there are 20 or so stinkers. Unless the competitors have got there of course !!
Muck
Many comments about the number of bacon rashers or the kids toys in the garden were untidy, which are 2 I have seen this week are quite meaningless and should in no way influence a potential visitor either way.lol
So I just read them and take many of the things with a pinch of salt.
The only time they are really meaningful is if there are 20 or so stinkers. Unless the competitors have got there of course !!
Muck
Oct 7th, 2008, 10:29 AM
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I have been researching for an upcoming trip both on Trip Advisor and Venere and I almost wish I didn't look. Even when there are a number of positives, there will be several negatives that seem to complain about the same issue, so that leads me to give credence to the negatives.
Example: Grand Hotel Menaggio by Lake Como gets some good reviews... it seems to have a good enough reputation on these boards, but several negative reports state the decor is worn, no longer a 4 star, needs updating, noisy, etc. Because of these negatives, I am going with Villa Belvedere in Argegno... and I'm still reconsidering Hotel Antico Doge in Venice in favor of Locanda Orseolo.
One can drive oneself mad with all the conflicting reports and I haven't learned how to do the pinch of salt thing, yet.
Example: Grand Hotel Menaggio by Lake Como gets some good reviews... it seems to have a good enough reputation on these boards, but several negative reports state the decor is worn, no longer a 4 star, needs updating, noisy, etc. Because of these negatives, I am going with Villa Belvedere in Argegno... and I'm still reconsidering Hotel Antico Doge in Venice in favor of Locanda Orseolo.
One can drive oneself mad with all the conflicting reports and I haven't learned how to do the pinch of salt thing, yet.
Oct 7th, 2008, 10:39 AM
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I guess it all depends on what your "comfort level" is when it comes to the negative reviews. Obviously, if I'm paying several hundred euros a night for a room, I expect it to be top-notch. But if I'm looking for a budget lodging, I'm willing to accept certain negatives.
The most common complaints I see on Paris hotels are:
1) Small rooms - but then, some of the posters admit that this was their first time in Paris so they have nothing to compare with
2) Small bathrooms
3) Thin walls
But IME, most of the 2-3* hotels in Paris fit the above criteria!
And then for the London Hotels, the most common complaint was how expensive was breakfast - like £16-20 per person.
All these "negatives" I am willing to overlook, and worn decor is fine with me too, as long as the price is right.
The most common complaints I see on Paris hotels are:
1) Small rooms - but then, some of the posters admit that this was their first time in Paris so they have nothing to compare with
2) Small bathrooms
3) Thin walls
But IME, most of the 2-3* hotels in Paris fit the above criteria!
And then for the London Hotels, the most common complaint was how expensive was breakfast - like £16-20 per person.
All these "negatives" I am willing to overlook, and worn decor is fine with me too, as long as the price is right.
Oct 7th, 2008, 11:17 AM
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I think it is possible to statistically analyze postings to tag premises for further scrutiny for possible manipulations.
I am suspicious about reviews saying the same thing in different words. I crosscheck against many resources as practical. Like subjective evaluations used at some sports competitions, I pay little attentions to extreme outliers - both good or bad.
I am suspicious about reviews saying the same thing in different words. I crosscheck against many resources as practical. Like subjective evaluations used at some sports competitions, I pay little attentions to extreme outliers - both good or bad.
Oct 7th, 2008, 11:57 AM
#29
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I pay little attentions to extreme outliers
Me, too. I always read the 5* comments and the 1* comments first, in part to see when they were written (if all the 1* comments are old, and the 5* comments new, it's likely the hotel has been refurbished, for example). Second, I read to see whether the poster's sensitivities are the same as mine, e.g., I could not care less if breakfast is expensive, because I never eat hotel breakfasts unless its included in the price, but if a lot of people complain about noise from the street or from adjoining rooms, my ears perk up. Third, I try to get an idea about the poster's "background" - as I've said before, if you regularly stay at Super 8 motels on the interstate, a 2* hotel in Europe is likely to look a lot more attractive to you than it will to me. Likewise, if you regularly stay at the Four Seasons, a 3* hotel in Europe is likely to look a lot <i>less</i> attractive to you than it will to me.
And regarding misspellings of the word definitely. The fact that it's regularly misspelled "in life" doesn't mean it will regularly be misspelled in one particular thread on one particular website. I absolutely would not only discount those reviews, but would assume they were written by competitors (if bad) or friends of the hotel (if good). If the latter, like someone else said, I will not stay there even if the place was otherwise high on my list -- why? Because I can't stand liars.
Me, too. I always read the 5* comments and the 1* comments first, in part to see when they were written (if all the 1* comments are old, and the 5* comments new, it's likely the hotel has been refurbished, for example). Second, I read to see whether the poster's sensitivities are the same as mine, e.g., I could not care less if breakfast is expensive, because I never eat hotel breakfasts unless its included in the price, but if a lot of people complain about noise from the street or from adjoining rooms, my ears perk up. Third, I try to get an idea about the poster's "background" - as I've said before, if you regularly stay at Super 8 motels on the interstate, a 2* hotel in Europe is likely to look a lot more attractive to you than it will to me. Likewise, if you regularly stay at the Four Seasons, a 3* hotel in Europe is likely to look a lot <i>less</i> attractive to you than it will to me.
And regarding misspellings of the word definitely. The fact that it's regularly misspelled "in life" doesn't mean it will regularly be misspelled in one particular thread on one particular website. I absolutely would not only discount those reviews, but would assume they were written by competitors (if bad) or friends of the hotel (if good). If the latter, like someone else said, I will not stay there even if the place was otherwise high on my list -- why? Because I can't stand liars.
Oct 7th, 2008, 01:35 PM
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Which is why I toss out the best and the worst reviews. The best reviews are invariably from either a plant or someone with exceedingly low standards. The worst are from either constant complainers or people that had a singular, bad experience. The rest tell you what you need to know.
That being said, I rarely stay at an unknown hotel in Europe. I pretty much rely on Priceline and save so much that I have no reason really complain.
That being said, I rarely stay at an unknown hotel in Europe. I pretty much rely on Priceline and save so much that I have no reason really complain.
Oct 7th, 2008, 03:35 PM
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I have used the facility of e-mailing some of the posters of reviews on TripAdvisor and have found that that is a good way to get a more rounded review of an establishment. It was obvious to me that the posters I e-mailed were genuine and they were able to give me more information which was very useful.
Perhaps e-mailing a suspicious poster and asking specific questions would make it more obvious that the review was a fake?
Perhaps e-mailing a suspicious poster and asking specific questions would make it more obvious that the review was a fake?
Oct 8th, 2008, 05:52 AM
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Whenever I see a review that seems too glowing, I always look at the reviewer. A lot of the time, the review only visited TA for one day and only reviewed that hotel. I quickly discard those reviews and if I see too many I throw out the hotel from my possibility list.
I often notice that those reviews talk about how great the staff is and usually mention no negatives at all.
I often notice that those reviews talk about how great the staff is and usually mention no negatives at all.
Oct 8th, 2008, 10:14 AM
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Myownheroine: I do the same thing, particularly for a property which has only a limited number of reviews. When I find one that I think may be too good to be true, I click on the reivwer's name and see what other hotels they have reviewed. I get a certain comfort level when the reviewer has posted multiple reviews, particuarly if it is obvious that multiple reviews were done out of one trip, and feel even better when they have posted photos of at least some of the properties.
Jun 30th, 2010, 07:00 AM
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I have done some investigation here about Tripadvisor. I have worked with hotels for many years and this is what I can say for sure.
Hotel owners, mostly independent hotels, have lost control of their industry. Third parties have taken over while having little or no investment. These third parties, i.e. Tripadvisor, Hotels.com, Expedia and Hotwire, all of which are owned by Barry Diller have turned the independent owner into a pawn by having the ability to manipulate the reviews in such a way that they can actually redirect customers without them even knowing it.
How so? O.K. Go to Tripadvisor pick a city and see what you find. A list of hotels in a rating system from one to whatever number. If we believe the reviews some might have 15 reviews and are rated # 1, 2 or 3 (often these hotels have only recently signed up with these third parties). Then one will have 100 reviews and be rated somewhere in the so so area. Yet the 100 reviews have 75 very good ratings. The highest rated one could very well be an old hotel under new management and it might have been a dump in its previous listing life. The new hotel owner swiftly loads his fake reviews by having his family and associates post fake 5 star reviews. Tripadvisor can not stop these fakes if they are loaded in by different computers with different IP addresses. Think Kinko's, UPS stores, etc. or even office depot while appearing to be looking to purchasing a new laptop.
This also applies to the other side of the picture. Someone loads bad reviews of their competitor. Or a crazy customer that did not get a discount and just creates new email accounts and looks like 30 different people. This all happens on tripadvisor every day. Because they do not require proof of you even having stayed at the hotel.
Now lets look at how Tripadvisor makes money. They make a % of every unit booked on Hotels.com, Expedia, Hotwire or an affiliate. No you say tripadvisor does not get a commission. Well kind of? They get a pay per click fee from most of their links. So the more they keep you going in circles the better. More clicks.
However Expedia, Hotwire and Hotels.com are owned by the same person that owns Tripadvisor. 25-35% of the hotel rate is what they get. Some hotels have contracts that are better for Expedia, etc. so you are now very cleverly directed to these hotels. How? By manipulating the reviews that is how. They remove negative reviews or hold back positive ones. Do they write them? No they just maneuver them. Which is the same thing in my book.
Also most of the time there is no discount at all. You just think you got one. Just check the room rate or call the hotel before booking and you will see that.
Now in the beginning these third parties were great for independent hotels because it got them in with the big boys on the web. Where can a small independent advertize. They could not take ads in every city in the world. So that was good in the start. However when Barry Diller saw the manipulation that was possible he began to purchase these companies and here we sit today all arguing with one another while he rakes in the cash.
The last thing that no one gets is this. Third parties have raised the price of rooms over the years. Hoteliers have adjusted prices to include their third parties commissions. Just a fact of doing business. As usual the angels become the devil and that what third party bookers have become.
Always call the hotel before booking. Because third party bookings get the worst rooms in a hotel because your booking is classified as a bargain hunter. If you book direct you get treated better and you have a direct relationship with the hotel not some third party that holds the hotel, less commission, funds for up to 30 days or more. Many times if there is a problem the hotel will tell Expedia to refund a guest payment. In that event what sometimes happens is the guest is told that the hotel would not refund the money. Then the hotel does not get the funds and Expedia keeps it all. No you say! They would not do that! Well let me show you how far they will go. Lets say you book a $100.00 + tax and the Hotel is paid $70.00 + tax. Where do you think the tax on $30.00 goes. Nowhere Expedia keeps it. Now if a company will cheat every city in the world out of sales taxes what do you think they will do to you. "BARRY DILLER" you are a piece of work!
Hotel owners, mostly independent hotels, have lost control of their industry. Third parties have taken over while having little or no investment. These third parties, i.e. Tripadvisor, Hotels.com, Expedia and Hotwire, all of which are owned by Barry Diller have turned the independent owner into a pawn by having the ability to manipulate the reviews in such a way that they can actually redirect customers without them even knowing it.
How so? O.K. Go to Tripadvisor pick a city and see what you find. A list of hotels in a rating system from one to whatever number. If we believe the reviews some might have 15 reviews and are rated # 1, 2 or 3 (often these hotels have only recently signed up with these third parties). Then one will have 100 reviews and be rated somewhere in the so so area. Yet the 100 reviews have 75 very good ratings. The highest rated one could very well be an old hotel under new management and it might have been a dump in its previous listing life. The new hotel owner swiftly loads his fake reviews by having his family and associates post fake 5 star reviews. Tripadvisor can not stop these fakes if they are loaded in by different computers with different IP addresses. Think Kinko's, UPS stores, etc. or even office depot while appearing to be looking to purchasing a new laptop.
This also applies to the other side of the picture. Someone loads bad reviews of their competitor. Or a crazy customer that did not get a discount and just creates new email accounts and looks like 30 different people. This all happens on tripadvisor every day. Because they do not require proof of you even having stayed at the hotel.
Now lets look at how Tripadvisor makes money. They make a % of every unit booked on Hotels.com, Expedia, Hotwire or an affiliate. No you say tripadvisor does not get a commission. Well kind of? They get a pay per click fee from most of their links. So the more they keep you going in circles the better. More clicks.
However Expedia, Hotwire and Hotels.com are owned by the same person that owns Tripadvisor. 25-35% of the hotel rate is what they get. Some hotels have contracts that are better for Expedia, etc. so you are now very cleverly directed to these hotels. How? By manipulating the reviews that is how. They remove negative reviews or hold back positive ones. Do they write them? No they just maneuver them. Which is the same thing in my book.
Also most of the time there is no discount at all. You just think you got one. Just check the room rate or call the hotel before booking and you will see that.
Now in the beginning these third parties were great for independent hotels because it got them in with the big boys on the web. Where can a small independent advertize. They could not take ads in every city in the world. So that was good in the start. However when Barry Diller saw the manipulation that was possible he began to purchase these companies and here we sit today all arguing with one another while he rakes in the cash.
The last thing that no one gets is this. Third parties have raised the price of rooms over the years. Hoteliers have adjusted prices to include their third parties commissions. Just a fact of doing business. As usual the angels become the devil and that what third party bookers have become.
Always call the hotel before booking. Because third party bookings get the worst rooms in a hotel because your booking is classified as a bargain hunter. If you book direct you get treated better and you have a direct relationship with the hotel not some third party that holds the hotel, less commission, funds for up to 30 days or more. Many times if there is a problem the hotel will tell Expedia to refund a guest payment. In that event what sometimes happens is the guest is told that the hotel would not refund the money. Then the hotel does not get the funds and Expedia keeps it all. No you say! They would not do that! Well let me show you how far they will go. Lets say you book a $100.00 + tax and the Hotel is paid $70.00 + tax. Where do you think the tax on $30.00 goes. Nowhere Expedia keeps it. Now if a company will cheat every city in the world out of sales taxes what do you think they will do to you. "BARRY DILLER" you are a piece of work!
Jun 30th, 2010, 07:13 AM
#36
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I am not sure I understand wny, if at all, there might be some correlation with a hotel's star/pricce level and the typicality of the reviews.
I assume this means that hotels with more stars or which cost more would "typically" get higher/better reviews than cheaper ones? I think there are certainly times when THAT isn't true and therefore I find it interesting that there might be some "average" for each level and when a place doesn't get that it might mean there is some sort of manipulation going on.
Lots of agents and others get MONEY when someone books and stays in a hotel. If the hotel is BAD and not worth the money there are many ways to address that. Is TripAdvisor BLOCKING a bunch of bad reviews these days?
Blaming TripAdvisor or any other outside force for the quality of a hotel including the staff? Sorry just as the establishment cannot block out these people who bring their own sheets, spray everything with Lysol and think that a staff member who doesn't wipe their butt is "rude."
I assume this means that hotels with more stars or which cost more would "typically" get higher/better reviews than cheaper ones? I think there are certainly times when THAT isn't true and therefore I find it interesting that there might be some "average" for each level and when a place doesn't get that it might mean there is some sort of manipulation going on.
Lots of agents and others get MONEY when someone books and stays in a hotel. If the hotel is BAD and not worth the money there are many ways to address that. Is TripAdvisor BLOCKING a bunch of bad reviews these days?
Blaming TripAdvisor or any other outside force for the quality of a hotel including the staff? Sorry just as the establishment cannot block out these people who bring their own sheets, spray everything with Lysol and think that a staff member who doesn't wipe their butt is "rude."
Jun 30th, 2010, 08:17 AM
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Jun 30th, 2010, 09:50 AM
#38
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Marly10, I can assure you that Hotwire very often gives significant discounts over any hotel rate you can get through transparent channels, including phoning directly. Even with other third-party transparent channels like Orbitz and HRS, I have had hotels tell me they can't match that rate. If a hotel decides to treat a guest who uses a third-party service badly, as you suggest they will do, then the hotel will rightly suffer on TripAdvisor for doing that. In my experience, I have not been treated badly, perhaps because the hotels realize that would be really stupid.
So far as I know, there's no compulsion for a hotel to use Expedia, Hotwire, Hotels.com, or any other service. It's always been industry practice that third parties, including conventional travel agents, get a cut of the proceeds. Any hotel is free to do all of their own advertising and booking if they want to do so, and then they get to keep everything. It seems to me that you are virtually libelling Barry Diller.
So far as I know, there's no compulsion for a hotel to use Expedia, Hotwire, Hotels.com, or any other service. It's always been industry practice that third parties, including conventional travel agents, get a cut of the proceeds. Any hotel is free to do all of their own advertising and booking if they want to do so, and then they get to keep everything. It seems to me that you are virtually libelling Barry Diller.
Jun 30th, 2010, 09:59 AM
#39
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It might be a sad reflection on the economy, but in my experience, hotel rates have not risen over the years. I remember that my parents paid about $55/night for a nice hotel in downtown Minneapolis over 30 years ago. Now I just recently used Priceline, and I got the Crowne Plaza in downtown Minneapolis for $44/night. I can think of other similar examples in southern California or just about anywhere.
Jun 30th, 2010, 02:39 PM
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Your missing the point. Independant companies should make money. These are not independant companies. They are owned by one person. Tripadvisor in not unbiased. Even if you look at all of the so called affiliates they are also controlled by the same person "DILLER". Diller continues to purchase these other he does not own.
I am not saying that no one ever gets a deal. They seed them out. Every con man in the world knows that someone has to win sometime or someone would get wise.
There are many things I have said in my previous post. Check them all out.
I personally would never use Hotwire because it is a crapshoot. Not even when Hotwire was not owned by "Diller".
As far as there being no compulsion to join Expedia, etc. There is, it is called a stacked deck. If you had your life invested like some nice small hotel owners do. You might have to play with the manipulated system or fail. The lesser of two evils; the other is going broke.
Remember I said before it was owed by "Diller" it was good for the hotel industry.
As far as tripadvisor goes. You do not join. They put you on like it or not. Claiming that tripadvisor is an independant open forum and not responsible for what is said on it. You can't be called independant when you control the industry. You also can not get taken off by you requesting so. Only they can take you off or on or off and so on and on and on.
Why do they not make people prove that they stayed at a hotel prior to putting it on the web. They don't because that would kill the golden goose. They need reviews, any kind of reviews, even fake reviews to keep things hopping. To keep control.
Even "Diller's" Hotels.com reqires you to prove you stayed at the hotel. Now compair the same Hotel at both Hotel.com and Tripadvisor. I would bet that the rating for that hotel is always 15% higher or lower on Hotels.com. Even Expedia does it. Tripadvisor is the little bully that makes "Diller" money.
So why does he not do it. Because it is the greatest manipulation tool in the industry. That is why.
I am not saying that no one ever gets a deal. They seed them out. Every con man in the world knows that someone has to win sometime or someone would get wise.
There are many things I have said in my previous post. Check them all out.
I personally would never use Hotwire because it is a crapshoot. Not even when Hotwire was not owned by "Diller".
As far as there being no compulsion to join Expedia, etc. There is, it is called a stacked deck. If you had your life invested like some nice small hotel owners do. You might have to play with the manipulated system or fail. The lesser of two evils; the other is going broke.
Remember I said before it was owed by "Diller" it was good for the hotel industry.
As far as tripadvisor goes. You do not join. They put you on like it or not. Claiming that tripadvisor is an independant open forum and not responsible for what is said on it. You can't be called independant when you control the industry. You also can not get taken off by you requesting so. Only they can take you off or on or off and so on and on and on.
Why do they not make people prove that they stayed at a hotel prior to putting it on the web. They don't because that would kill the golden goose. They need reviews, any kind of reviews, even fake reviews to keep things hopping. To keep control.
Even "Diller's" Hotels.com reqires you to prove you stayed at the hotel. Now compair the same Hotel at both Hotel.com and Tripadvisor. I would bet that the rating for that hotel is always 15% higher or lower on Hotels.com. Even Expedia does it. Tripadvisor is the little bully that makes "Diller" money.
So why does he not do it. Because it is the greatest manipulation tool in the industry. That is why.
