walkinaround

I would not 'blame' it just on Victorian terraces. Even in much more modern housing with garages, in almost all cases the garages are too small to be practically used for cars. With the very newest housing (say 5-10 years or so), you can start to see some with wider garages and even double garages, but it's strange how almost no garages in the UK are wide enough for convenient daily use with even a smaller car - i.e. wide enough that you can pull the car in and exit the car conveniently without being a contortionist or pulling a Dukes of Hazard. Garages are quite common in housing going back over more than 50 years (often rows of them behind blocks of flats, terraces, etc) so if they could be used for cars, that alone would ease some of the issues with far too many cars littered all around our neighbourhoods. Very few garages are used for cars except where it's for longer term storage that doesn't require daily access. As I look around at our housing stock, I see a very bad design mistake in investing all over the land in garages that are unusable for cars. Cars getting bigger over the years is not a sufficient explanation either as even small cars do not fit comfortably in garages and cars have been larger for many decades while tiny garages were still being built.

The UK eagerly awaits the promise of self driving cars that you summon as needed rather than have to own and park at your home. Until then, we'll have cars all over the place and garages that don't fit cars.

walkinaround

Although that reputation is largely inaccurate today, it's really only been in the last 15-20 years where better food started to permeate into typical UK life. Just 25 or so years ago, it was a very different landscape for food. So you can kind of understand the stereotype. It's pretty amazing how relatively quickly the food scene has changed for everyday people but reputation/stereotype is slower to change.

BTW, I would say that it's only been about 10-15 years back (or less) for the mainstreaming of things like orthodontics, regular preventative dentistry, teeth whitening, and other cosmetic treatments among 'regular people'. For example, it's still quite a recent development for parents of teenagers to be sitting around discussing "what are you doing about braces?" Even so, that's still mainly among the independent school set and is yet to permeate downward in society.

bilboburgler

in the UK, in the south, "braces" were normal in the independant sector 45 years ago.

NHS "free service" does not reach majorityof population.

janisj

>>it's really only been in the last 15-20 years where better food started to permeate into typical UK life. Just 25 or so years ago, it was a very different landscape for food.<<

Your dates are a little off -- maybe 40 years ago, yes.

janisj

re the parking every which way -- I just consider it a simple form of traffic calming

(I hope walkinaround isn't going to turn this thread into yet another lecturing yawn . . . )

SenatorSteve

Bilboburgler:
I forgot to add my final funny story. You reminded me, thanks. I put in all of those "drive left, drive left, drive left", which I really did say, to make the point of what I did when I returned to the US. The first two days I drove here, I kept repeating "drive right, drive right, drive right".

Hooameye" I was disagreeing with the stereotype. However, when I was there, everyone was wearing bowler hats with pin striped suits. I found the tied on bowler hats and pin striped nappies on the infants particularly interesting. Was I just in the wrong area?

SenatorSteve

Brief addition.

My wife read the entire thread today.

SenatorSteve

Accidentally hit send. Sorry.

My wife read the entire thread today. She was surprised by how warm the reception was. I wasn't. You guys are great.

She agreed that it was a very accurate description of our trip. However, during and after reading it, she pointed out one thing that I hadn't mentioned that she thought anyone reading this for purposes of making a trip should be aware of. Those of you from there already know this.

London and Edinburgh have places that are open late. In London, you can find places all night. However, she asked me to point out that in most of the small towns that we visited, most of the stores, museums, and other places of interest were open 10-4 or 10-5 (1000-1600 or 1700) . Some opened at 9:00, some were open until 5:00 or even 6:00, but 10:00-4:00 seemed to be the standard. This applied even to a larger city like York. Restaurants stay open later, but you shouldn't overplan, because many of the places that you'd go shopping or sightseeing close earlier than you think they might if you come from a large city.

Thank all of you again. You helped make our trip wonderful because of all of your helpful advice.

janisj

>>She was surprised by how warm the reception was<<

Why was she surprised . . . What terrible tales have you been telling her about us ??

(it really is a lovely report)

I HATE driving the first 3 or 4 days after returning. It is scary sometimes - have to concentrate to drive on the right.

5alive

No, I'd say 30 years was still really bad. I lived there in 1988 and generally the food was not good. Perhaps really wealthy Londoners had their own Wolfgang Puck, but for average folks, there was no escape from what was offered regularly.

The good: Fish and chips when freshly made, was indeed good, but I can only take that much grease so often. A simple ploughman's lunch at a pub -- cheese, ham, apple and bread, was a pleasant, enjoyable lunch, but it wasn't always offered. And a cream tea was the one divine English treat.

Indian food was excellent. This was true in the city and when we tried it in Norwich, where we felt like we'd been transported to another country. Chinese was quite good when in London. It looked sketch in the towns though and talking to my host mum, it was clear that at least some Chinese outlets had a more Anglicized version that was not at all interesting.

The bad: Let's start with apple tarts, where pastry is neither flaky nor buttery (why choose when you can have neither?) and cinnamon is simply AWOL. (Didn't England help develop the spice trade? What happened there?)

Going into a sandwich shop, you get a thick layer of butter and a bit of meat on some dry bread. A restaurant we went to in Edinburgh that looked quite cute over in the Georgian area, we had just nasty soup that may have been canned, but if not, I don't know their excuse. And another memory: Pizza is a reason to put corn on top, and that, my friends, is an American-style pizza.

Gyhtson

geetika

walkinaround

5alive is more realistic in their view on this.

Improved quality and variety in restaurants for the masses in working class UK simply did not come to Britain 40 years ago. I stand firmly by less than 25 years ago. And arguably more like 15-20 years.

I would argue that in the UK, 2 things brought a revolution in dining out for the masses (regular people living in regular places outside of cosmopolitan areas or even just outside of London):
1. Surge in expansion of the chain restaurants (roughly around the year 2000)
2. Pubs reinventing themselves into dining destinations (also roughly around the year 2000).

The UK was in a horrid recession with 20% inflation in the early 1980s so a cultural revolution or evolution in dining out among regular working people did not just not happen...it was inconceivable that it would! And it didn't happen until many years later.

Of course our chains have a very mixed quality level but they did generally bring a certain quality standard, expanded the variety, and made dining out more of a regular pastime for regular families. Where were the French restaurants outside of cosmopolitan cities before Cafe Rouge (even if it is pretty dire, many in the masses now have a French restaurant nearby). France is 21 miles away from the UK and even today, there are relatively few French restaurants around the country except for Cafe Rouge and Cote. Spanish food? Where were the Spanish restaurants in Middle England before La Tasca came to the less cosmopolitan areas. Spanish restaurants are still almost nonexistent except for the chains, despite Spain being one of the most popular holiday destinations for Brits. Where did regular, working class families go out for dinner for Italian food before the likes of Zizzi, Ask, and Pizza Express came to Middle England? 'Curry' restaurants started to cater to increasing demand for 'authentic' and higher quality Indian or Bangladeshi food starting about 20 years ago. For example, it was next to impossible to even get Southern Indian food outside of London and the larger cities. Now there is better availability of a variety of different types of 'curry', better quality, and consumers with more sophisticated tastes for it.

Prior to roughly 20 years ago, very few pubs were family dining destinations and for very good reason.

Sher

bilboburgler

Certainly, in Yorkshire and Oxfordshire, the food became much better more than 30 years ago. I agree it was helped by some big chains (often now long gone), but also smaller places came along making a real effort bringing in some real French chefs, and of course access to European chefs from all over. Recessions in these countries opened up the way.

In 1985 I had to spend a lot of time in a Trust House Forte hotel in Yorkshire before the dread, second-generation family-management team joined in. The chef was French and had complete control of the wine cellar. As a long-time resident this was fantastic with menus changing every week. Unfortunately, Rocco then took charge and wanted only 8 whites and 8 reds on his wine lists all over the country. Chef told me and between him and a few other local stalwarts helped empty the cellar of the horrid old (wonderful) wines he had accumulated to be replaced by rubbish. At that time smaller good restaurants opened up locally to entice.

So my date for wonderful food in Yorkshire was 1986.

walkinaround

A hotel restaurant with a wine cellar and an extensive wine list?
Sounds more like a 'fine dining' type establishment than a 'regular' restaurant for everyday people. Especially in the 1980s but even today. Of course Britain has always had a selection of restaurants at the high end. Nobody disputes that. But it sounds like a special occasion type place for regular people rather than the type of place the masses would regularly go out to.

SenatorSteve

JanisJ: I'm stunned. You say when you return, you drive on the right. Do you live in the States? Your encyclopedic knowledge certainly makes it appear that you live in the UK. I would have thought Scotland. Also, my wife knew that I was asking for advice from experts on this forum, but she never knew it was such a family/group of friends/good people.

Gyhtson: Maybe the standard hours are 9:00-5:30, but I'm telling you that even on weekdays in the smaller towns, and with many of the museums, many didn't open until 10:00, and some started closing as early as 4:00, although many closed at 5:00, 5:30, or 6:00.

Gardyloo: You never commented. I hope that I didn't offend you in my initial comments. I was kidding around.

janisj

Nah -- a California girl here. But I did live in the UK for about 5 years and go back at least twice a year. Now only get to Scotland maybe every 3-ish years but it's my favorite place just about anywhere.

(I wasn't permitted to work when I lived there so had a sort of five year vacation -- oh darn -- so I got around a LOT)

bilboburgler

Not fine dining at all at THF, but the Box Tree in Ilkley had a Michelin star back in the 1980s/90s

Certainly, Leeds had good normal people restaurants during the 80s and 90s as did my small town, along with Harrogate and Ilkley. Probably better than the south where I come. Or maybe just cheaper. It, of course, may be down to each town (no competition = no effort).

janisj

bilboburgler - give it up or walkinaround will blow a gasket. Of COURSE there was good and sometimes great food all over the UK long ago. (Maybe he just ate a Aberdeen / Angus Steak Houses and Berni Inns)