Redlocks

Perhaps you have never driven in a foreign city...even if you study the road signs (and believe me we purchased all the books and did study), it's very difficult to navigate in the city. I think anyone who has been to Florence will agree with me. By doing no harm, I meant we didn't run off the roadway, hit anyone or any objects, cause a traffic accident, etc. Are you this unforgiving to foreign tourists in the USA? Maybe if we were, they would go away. Hey, there's an idea! I live in a high tourist area myself and between spring break, bike week, Nascar, snow birds and family vacationers, we see lots of lost people making their way. I would hate to know that they are being fined for simple (and harmless) driving infractions. I was only replying to the original posting and wondering if anyone else has also been charged from their rental car companies in relationship to the traffic violation. I thought this forum was just a way to find out if this situation is legitimate. How do you know it's not a scam?

tcreath

Redlocks, as I mentioned above, I would consider contacting your rental car dealership. They should have a customer service number here in the US and hopefully will be of help.

Our ticket was for the same thing in Salzburg; driving in a restricted area. We got lost a couple of times in the center of town and I'm assuming we were driving in an area that only locals were supposed to drive in because we were simply following traffic.

I don't know anything about the scams but I wouldn't assume that its all a scam. However, as I mentioned, we didn't pay because we couldn't figure out how to and were basically told by Avis to ignore it. We never heard another word about it and have rented cars in Europe several times since then without any problems.

Tracy

tcreath

Oh, and I wouldn't pay attention to the negative comments. Yes, we had a travel guide and yes, we learned the "rules of the road". But when you are driving in a foreign country, in a city that is trafficy and confusing enough to begin with, without being fluent in that language, its very difficult to know when you are driving in a restricted area. We had absolutely no idea, and I'm sure there are thousands of people like you (the OP) and me who have been in this same position.

Tracy

annhig

hi,

the next question, always supposing you intend to pay is HOW?

a friend of mine [not me, honest injun] incurred a hospital bill in France. being english, she tried to get them to take details of her E111 [an EC document giving EC citizens reciprocal medical treatment] but to no avail.

on return home, she got a bill from the commune for about E100 which she paid in the only way she could think of, with a E100 note. IN THE POST.

about a year later [this is where I come in] she received a second bill for the same amount, threatening her with bailiffs if she didn't pay. after hours on the phone, she and the commune are at stale-mate - they want her to pay, she says she's paid.

Needless to say I have told her not to be so daft [think that's the word I used, it may have been stronger] and tell them to take a running jump [or however that translates in french].

leaving aside the morality of paying or not paying, just how would you set about paying this fine? [assuming you don't have a euro a/c]

what is actually going to happen if you don't?

regards, ann

notbob

As far as paying or not, you might want to actually take a look at your rental agreement. In most of them, you agree to operate the car in a lawful manner. They also give the rental agency the ability to charge you for administrative fees and if the legal authority hits them with the fine, it also lets them charge your credit card for the fine.

janisj

Redlocks: As I posted on your other thread - the $70 is almost certainly the admin fee charged by the rental agency to provide your information to the Italian authorities.

And don't be such a whinger - it is definitely not a scam against American tourists. Until the authroities got the info from Hertz ot whomever, they had no idea you were American. They only knew that someone w/ a rental car broke the rules. You could have been a Brit or Austrian - or even Italian.

So - pay or not - that is your choice. But quit whining about being scammed.

tcreath

annhig, having problems paying was our big problem and why we ended up calling Avis. We tried to get a money order in euros but our bank and local western union claimed they couldn't give them to us. Since we couldn't just write a check, obviously can't send cash, and they didn't accept credit cards we couldn't figure out how to pay. That's when we called Avis, looking for advice, and was told to throw it out. I never did find out how to go about paying something like that.

Tracy

Redlocks

Thanks to those who offered positive advise and suggestions. I guess my frustration was mistaken for whining, but I was just trying to find out what others had experienced. There are so many scams out there that I felt it was reasonable to wonder if this could be one. Even my friends thought it could be and advised that I check it out somehow. That is why I tried this forum. I would like to know from the original poster (kswensson) if their tickets say "Notice of Payment Before Notification". Not sure what that means.

Cowboy1968

How can anyone assume that this is some sort of conspiracy against American tourists?

Many/most tickets in Europe (speeding, unauthorized access, etc) are issued from "video or camera evidence": a camera detects a car entering Florence's ZTL and tries to match the plate with a file of authorized vehicles. If it does not match, a ticket is issued to the owner of the car, in your case the rental car company. They give the police your home address and the ticket gets to your attention.
So there are no mean, angry carabinieri hunting down lost tourists.

There is one common difference in European signage: Whenever a traffic sign comes with the word "ZONE", it means that the regulation (speed limit, access limitation etc.) will not be repeated anywhere beyond that sign - until you pass the same sign crossed out, i.e. the end of the "zone".

ira

>Perhaps you have never driven in a foreign city...Are you this unforgiving to foreign tourists in the USA? <

Yes and Yes.

grapes

Foreign drivers are responsible to know, understand and follow traffic laws in the United States. Citizens of the Unites States are responsible to know, understand and follow traffic laws in Europe. If you receive and do not pay a traffic fine, I wonder if some countries might arrest you during a future traffic stop because of outstanding traffic violations? There are places in the U.S.that do this. I once had a friend arrested,cuffed and hauled out of the Anchorage airport for unresolved violations when she was caught there parking illegally.

paulsc1

We join the long list of drivers who have fallen into the ZTL trap. This system of extracting huge sums from unsuspecting motorists is prevalent from Rome northward. We rented a car in Pisa this past March and toured Tuscany to Venice. We thought all went well until about 3 months ago when we received a charge on our credit card of 50 euros from the rental co. This was followed by 7 more charges of 50 euros each. 6 of the charges were on one day in Pisa over the course of an hour. There should be a warning when you rent a car and travel in Northern Italy that these Zona Transporta Limita signs mean that you will be photgraphed and fined large amounts of money if you enter these areas. The best thing to do is stay out of that part of Italy if you are renting a car. Our experience is going to cost upwards of $2000!!! There is nothing in Italy that is worth paying that kind of money. As far as I know, we don't have areas in the US where you can be fined just for driving on the city streets. This is something that should be published in the tour guide books in BIG letters.

kybourbon

>>>The best thing to do is stay out of that part of Italy if you are renting a car.<<<

The best thing to do is learn to read the traffic signs. Almost every official tourism website for the major cities in Italy have information about driving in the cities including about the ZTL.

daveesl

The next time, make yourself a James Bond, rotating license tag holder. Make up a couple of numbers, but always have the real one, then if you see the police you can switch back to the real number, but the rest of the time have the fake ones showing.

I also have ideas on using jet packs to get around cities. Way better than either buses or metro.

:-0

dave

StCirq

<<Zona Transporta Limita signs>>

This wasn't a clue to you that maybe you shouldn't be there?

<<The best thing to do is stay out of that part of Italy if you are renting a car.>>

No, the best thing to do is either learn the laws ahead of time or stop and ask someone if you can't figure out what the sign means.

paulsc1

Actually the sign reads Zona Traffico Limitato. My wife and I never saw the signs. We learned about them researching the reason for the fines. When your driving along in traffic trying to avoid an accident it's easy to miss a sign. It's not like it's posted in the middle of the road and they only put one sign at the beginning of the zone. My purpose of the post is to alert other drivers. We definitely won't be driving in Northern Italy again. There are a lot of drivers, including Italians,who receive these fines.

markrosy

paulsc1

You are absolutely right but they will not do this as it restricts their ability to charge the admin fees.

Best advice in each and every case of Italian traffic ticket (unless you are an Italian resident) is sit it out and do not pay. They will find it impossible to recover.

"No, the best thing to do is either learn the laws ahead of time or stop and ask someone if you can't figure out what the sign means"

and this is while you are in a city you have never visited, with jet lag and whilst having 20 Fiat Puntos screaming at you for not travelling at 50% above the speed limit.

I don't think so...

Cowboy1968

One of the few signs worth remembering is the red/white circle that comes with uncounted add-ons or exceptions like on this ZTL sign:
http://italyfaves.typepad.com/.a/6a0...3252970b-320wi

But it is also used for roads restricted to residents, pedestrians, roads closed on certain days or hours, etc.
It means no motorized traffic beyond this point, unless/except reason a, b, x qualifies. Even if you can't figure out whether you belong any of those groups or if it's the right hour or day, the basic message stays the same: No motorized traffic beyond this point.

Whenever you see that sign, it can pay off to err on the safe side and refrain from entering a road designated this way.

greg

My experience point out the ZTL along with other additional considerations with driving not encountered in the U.S. to those going to Italy for the first time has not been positive.

Their responses usually go like this:

We have driven elsewhere in Europe.
We have never gotten traffic tickets.
Therefore, we will be fine driving into Florence and Pisa.

Of course, 8 months after the trip, they curse up and down how rotten and sneaky the ZTL fines are.

I can't think of anything that can alert these folks before venturing into Florence unprepared.

By the way, Rick Steves warns about ZTL in his Italy guidebook.

janisj

"<i>The best thing to do is stay out of that part of Italy if you are renting a car.</i>"

Ridiculous advice IMHO. Absolutely ridiculous. And how about driving in other European countries w/ all the speed cameras etc.?

What you should do is not drive <i><u>anywhere</i></u> unless you understand the rules of the road . . . . .