tgy

This board seems to be "pro" independent travel. Is there any advantage to taking tours? It seems like some of the "scary" happenings described on this board could be avoided in a tour group?

Chris

I have taken one tour and traveled to Europe independently 3 other times since 1994. Our 4th trip is next week. <BR> <BR>I think tours are good to get a flavor of things or a lay of the land. Other than that they are too rushed and structured for my taste. Additionally I didn't enjoy getting up before down to board a bus, staying in hotels that were out of the way, or eating with 45 other people everyu day. <BR> <BR>As far as the scary things you reference, I haven't experienced them. I think you'd have a higher probability of "scary" things happening to you in any major city in the US on a given day. <BR> <BR>Independent travel allows you to do what you want when you want. If you have seen too much of one place move on. If you want to stay longer-stay longer. You have a freedom you will not have on a tour. <BR> <BR>Just my thoughts on the subject

elvira

The advantages to tours: <BR>1) All arrangements are made for you. No worries about finding hotels or restaurants or getting from one place to another. <BR>2) The itinerary is done for you: the highpoints are included, and you'll see the best of the best. <BR>3) All admissions are handled for you; the guide gets the tickets (or has them already), either acts as the guide or arranges for one, and gets you into the edifice through the group entrance. <BR>4) They know the good photo ops, and will point them out; they'll stop the bus along the way for spectacular scenery. <BR>5) If you're ill, the guide will arrange for a doctor or a trip to the hospital. <BR>6) No driving! That means everybody gets to enjoy the scenery. <BR>7) No unexpected expenses (if the bus breaks down, another one appears). <BR>8) If something goes awry (hotel isn't available, the restaurant isn't serving), the tour company takes care of the alternate arrangements. <BR>9) No worries about understanding the local language.

Mary Ann

We have taken 3 independent tours of Europe and will continue (as long as we can to do it that way). Most organized tours do everything that Elvira mentioned above but you do lose some flexibility and ambiance. Examples from us and friends include: <BR>1. Going to Venice as a day tripper with a gondola ride with 40 others. Much of the beauty of Venice is after 3pm and at night when the day trippers leave. Unless you stay you really miss a great deal. Similar to other places. <BR>2. Eating is a big part of traveling. Restaurant and food choices are limited to where they can handle the group and food they can serve quickly. <BR>3. Spur of the moment visits to rest at sidewalk cafes or shopping when you want to have to be structured. <BR>4. When we travel we generally stay in smaller B&Bs, lodges, Pubs, etc. Some with as little as 4 rooms. They have a lot of history, wonderful people and great food. Tours need much bigger places, generally more typical hotels that you would see, even in the US. <BR>5. If weather prevents you from doing something (visiting the top of the Alps, river cruise, etc), you can adjust your itinerary to hopefully get it in with independent, not so easy with an organized tour. <BR>6. You can go to the bathroom when you want to. <BR>7. You can plan your own itinerary for the cities you want to visit not just the available packages. Finding out of the way places or going to the norm, if you so choose. Research is half the fun. <BR>8. You may get lost with independent, we have. But it is more of an adventure. In reality it is the less than flawless trip that sometimes makes the memories. (Stopping strangers in Paris who are more than willing to help, getting your car towed in Florence, or having a jogger who speaks no english help push your car to get the dead battery started). We usually have one of these on each trip. <BR>9. Cost. We usually use frequent flyers to get there. On our last 20 night tour we stayed in only locations that had a bath with a double, at most 3*, half had breakfast and averaged $80 a night. We probably did the 1999 trip for two including meals, souvenirs, entrance fees, etc. for about $4,500, sharing car expenses with another couple. Tours that covered what we did would be substantially more due to the items Elvira mentioned. <BR>10. Not all tours cover all admissions. Be sure to check the fine print. <BR> <BR>There are some smaller organized tours that may offset some of the disadvantages of larger groups. Rick Steves seems to do well with this. But again, price will probably be effected. What it boils down to is what ever suits what you want to do, your pocket and how much you want to do the advance work!

Randall Smith

Hello all, <BR> <BR>I am definitely pro-indepedent travel. We have been on guided tours in other parts of the world i.e. bus tours, but have always rented an auto and made our own arrangements in Europe. I do however recommend guided tours for some people who have never been to Europe or plan on only going once or twice. I also recommend them for older people who might have some trouble getting out on their own. <BR> <BR>That said, to me a guided tour would take away one of the greatest pleasures that I find in travel, the feeling of adventure and the satisfaction of striking out on our own and discovering new people, places, and experiences. I love feeling less like a tourist and trying to get more of the flavor of a country, obviously traveling in a tour group on a bus doesn't allow for that. <BR> <BR>The other reason I might recommend a travel group would be if you have very limited time and want just a quick idea of many different places so that you may return for a fuller experience at a later date. I think the tour groups and first time visitors are more into seeing things than really experiencing the true essence of a country and its people. <BR> <BR>Finally I guess each traveler must decide for his or herself what they want from the travel experience and proceed accordingly. <BR> <BR>Bon Voyage to all. <BR> <BR>Randall Smith <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Bob Brown

I think it depends on the tour and what it has to offer. In the United States, particularly in the West, I almost dread it when I see tour buses roll in to a National Park. The passengers descend for a quick look at some place like Bryce Canyon and then climb back on the bus. <BR>I know they don't really see the beauty of the place or learn much of the geology and history. <BR> <BR>Yet, I hear people praise their tour in glowing terms, and I can understand why some people do it. Tour operators provide structure, scheduling and travel savvy. For some people that is essential. <BR>For example, I would not take a long tour in the US or Western Europe, but I am seriously considering one for St. Petersburg -- mainly because I don't speak the language at all. Perhaps the flame of adventure has died out some, but I don't particularly want the potential hassels of dealing with something about which I know nothing. <BR> <BR>Day trips are a different matter. They can often provide the transportation and the commentary that enhances enjoyment. For example, last year we free lanced our visits to Giverny and Versailles. This year, because of the press of time, I opted to schedule a "canned" tour of Fontainebleau and Vaux-le-Vicomte. The same tour bus goes to both places and the schedule allows adequate time to see the grounds and buildings. <BR>

Lori

As already pointed out there are some advantages to taking tours, personally I believe it depends on where your plan on going. I might consider a tour if I were going to China for instance but do not think it necessary for Europe. Independent travel is just that - you can come and go when you like and that suits us, but of course not everyone is like that. Some people like the "comfort" of a group and a leader and knowing exactly what is going to happen from moment to moment. We allow time for "nothing" when traveling, we wander off to towns that are off the tourist path, etc. It makes for what we consider a better trip. We have a couple of times taken a day tour (when in Spain and Morocco) and that cured us of ever doing that again. It's too regimented, and you do not have any free time to go where you want to go, you must stay with the herd! It all depends on people, some like the adventure of doing it yourself (personally I love planning) and others are not into that. Each has its merits. Tours seem to have you up at dawn, traveling 90% of the day, eating in hotel dining rooms and seeing "highlights" rather than anything in depth. They are probably good to get an overview of a place and then perhaps go back on your own. <BR> <BR>I think perhaps also health and/or age can factor into the tour vs non tour decision. Again, it may be comfortable to travel with a group and no handle decisions due to health and/or age limitations. My next door neighbor left this a.m. for a 3 week tour to Italy. She's a widow, 69 yrs old. She frequently takes tours, she told me yesterday she loves doing it, maybe not quite as much as she loved independent travel when she was married and younger, but it's a great solution for her and allows her to travel without the worry of independent travel. She told me there are always a couple of "singles" on the tours and they end up hanging out so to speak so she is not worried about being alone on a tour. <BR> <BR>Incidentally we've travel independentally forever so it seems and never had a scary incident anyplace, you just need to use street smarts and be aware of what you are doing and where you are.

Bev

My family of three generations, 7 people ages 22 to 72, likes to take a trip together every year or so and I've found the best itinerary for us is part tour/part independent. This fall we will be going to the south of France for a cooking/eating experience called "Cooking with Friends". We stay in Grasse for a week with the mornings learning Provencal cooking, and tours to cheese caves, markets, wineries, hotel kitchens and restaurants. The afternoons and evenings are free so that we can go our separate ways. This seems to work the best for us - part of the time together in an already arranged pan - and part of the time on our own. We did an Alaskan cruise which also worked well because the shore time was on our own. Last year we went to Hawaii independently and found it is rather stressfull deciding where to stay, where to eat, and what to do each day and still please 7 people. So, depending on your situation there are pros and cons to each method of travel. I am just happy to have the opportunity, regardless of the arrangements!

Rex

A middle ground option is a small group tour, whether organized by a professional, semi-amateur or just a member of a group of friends ("do-it-yourself"). Elvira seems to be a prototype of the semi-amateur - - highly experienced yet not her "day job". I am slowly easing myself into the role of small groups tour leader, even though virtually all of my experience has been with family or friends or friends of family. <BR> <BR>I recently took my biggest trip yet (16 adults for 17 days), and I considered it my privilege and good fortune to have four people along (all single women, ages 55-65) who had considerable experience with tour group trips, operated by big(ger) companies, typically by all-bus venues. They graciously offered me a lot of constructive comparison, contrats and feedback, and it gave me a lot of valuable new perspectives. <BR> <BR>It may indeed be true that "you see more" on a bus tour - - and not just driving by, either. The bus tour companies know that they have to "deliver" - - you pais money to see "famous" stuff - - they get you to "it" expeditiously, and they keep you going when independent travel or even small group touring might build in more unstructured time. Not everyone knows how to handle that unstructured time, and in particular, there is the need to get past the fear of barriers posed by language, unfamiliar culture and customs, and simply knowing where to go (and how to get back). <BR> <BR>Keep in mind that on a small group tour where the language expertise is possessed by onnly one or two people that it is not practical or possible for that one person to go everywhere and do everything by all the participants on the trip - - even if it is a dozen or fewer. <BR> <BR>I also learned the wisdom that every minute of every day really ought to be planned - - whether the plan is follwoed or not. This is the framework against which, the "plans B and C" (etc.) get judged. And on a do-it-yourself small group trip, someone has to do this work and exhibit this leadership. It can waste time and create frustrations to throw out 4 options from which the "group" is supposed to choose what to do when (especially when "based" in one location for multiple days). The leader ought to go ahead and (tentatively) decide we're going to do this today, this tomorrow, etc. Then, if weather, or moods, or other circumstances or discoveries result in another choice, it will typically be because that other choice is better than the framework. <BR> <BR>As others have mentioned, bus tours have their negatives. We started leisurely - - often decided the night before, based on our evening dinner and/or entertainment. I was told that we ate better than on any bus trip they had ever taken - - and many of those, by the way WERE in the dining rooms of the hotel I had chosen for the group (almost always small places). And i was particularly surprised to learn that some bus tours established "boundaries" for where NOT to shop or go on their own for lunch. My travelers enjoyed having no such boundaries. <BR> <BR>So, in the balance, I felt like they taught me some positives and some negatives about bus tours I had not previously known. <BR> <BR>For first timers, non-planners, language intimidated, and less experienced, less "hearty" travelers, a bus tour might be just appealing as a small group tour. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex

Simone

This is a great thread - very thoughtful replies. As a person who travels on my own (I believe all the other posts regarding independent travel were 'we'), there can be comfort in small group travel. On my last trip to the UK I spent 10 days on my own and a week on a small group tour (10 people). I really prefer being on my own but I envy people who have a partner to share the travel experience with. Perhaps if we all had travel partners there would be little need for tours.

Sheila

I have only been to Europe twice but did enjoy the group tour. Since we were 2 females traveling together with language barriers we felt more safe with the group. Our tour group was very flexible and we had time on our own to explore the cities. The headache of hotels and buying tickets, etc. was left up to someone else. Maybe someday after a few more group trips, I will feel confident to go on my own.

Cindy

Two more observations: <BR> <BR>I did an escorted bus tour of Holland on my first trip to Europe many years ago. There is one major issue that will forever keep me from doing another one: the tour operator can schedule shopping at touristy places. We actually went to a wooden shoe maker to buy wooden shoes, for heavens sake. For people who don't like to be shopping hostages, escorted tours might not be a good fit. <BR> <BR>Second, you might consider a "hosted" tour. These tours package your hotel, air and airport transfers, but you are free to tour independently. It sounds like a nice compromise, and we are trying one this fall.

becky

This is a great thread. I've mixed feelings about tours vs. independent travel but would come down on the side of the latter. <BR> Tours are great for the 1st time traveler abroad & I was most happy to be on one a couple of times when I became ill. It's great to be greeted at an airport & have you & your luggage delivered to a hotel (which can be a problem otherwise). On 1 tour we stayed in a very expensive hotel that we wouldn't have picked on our own (the tour company must have gotten a deep discount). <BR> However, sometimes the inforced sociability (eating together every day, 3 times a day, with the same - sometimes stuffy & dull - people got to be too much. My husband & I often had our best times when we went off on our own. (E.g., our tour group bused to Pompeii & spent a very short time there; we went on our own by train & spent 5 1/2 happy hours there.) <BR> We've also found that we're much more likely to come into contact with local people on our own than sitting on some tour bus looking out at the scenery.

MaureenGP

The choice between tours and independent travel is very individual, and I have found both have their pros and cons. <BR> For instance, we took a tour to Hawaii that was terrific. We could not have afforded to stay at the same hotels and restaurants on our own, since the tour operator gets discounted rates. These were outstanding places (like the Hyatt Regency in Maui and Moana Surfrider in Honolulu), and the tour itself was really wonderful, especially our guide. But, after the tour, we added 4 days on our own on the Big Island, and we really enjoyed not getting up early to meet the group and get on the bus. We liked meandering around on our own schedule. <BR> On an earlier trip to Italy, we also took a tour, and although I have very fond memories, my husband still grouses that we had to race through Pompeii, but we spent an hour in a cameo factory. On that same trip we also visited leather and jewelry factories in Florence, but did not see the Uffizi Gallery. (Similarly, in Hawaii, there were occasions to visit Hilo Hattie's and some jewelry place that sold black pearls, etc., but we did not have to go and elected to skip these stops. Other people were eager to sign up, however.) <BR> Taking all of this into consideration, we opted to do our most recent trip to Spain independently, at the same time a friend of ours took a tour. In retrospect, I still prefer traveling independently, but it involves much more preparation, and more strain on the driver (my husband). We got lost more times than I can recall, and he got very frustrated trying to find his way around the old sections of Toledo, Cordoba, Granada, etc. On the other hand, we were able to see precisely the things we wanted to see, on our own schedule. We felt sorry for the tourist groups being rushed in and out of the same places where we were lingering. When I compared notes with my friend after our trips, I found that ours was more leisurely (though certainly hectic enough) than her trip, but she had received far more information about each place from her tour guide. She told me things I didn't know, although I had done extensive reading for a year before our trip. But--while she never got lost and had such good information--she also was rushed so much that she left some of her belongings behind in hotels in the dash to make the early morning bus, missed out on buying items because she had to choose between grabbing lunch or souvenirs, and was actually insulted by one guide for using her tape recorder. We, on the other hand, were able to take a tour of the Alhambra by moonlight, and then go back the next morning to tour it again by daylight, whereas on a tour, you have one shot at any given site, and a quick one at that. <BR> In the end, I know we will travel independently again, and I will probably also take tours again. It will probably depend upon the transportation options to tour independently, and how accessible the language is. I may be able to navigate in French, Italian or Spanish, but German or Russian would baffle me. It will certainly depend on how intimidated I am--I'd be more prone to travel independently in England, for instance, than in Egypt. <BR>

Rudy

Grand Circle Travel, Saga, and Sun Holidays offer a nice compromise---their stay-in-one-place holidays. We did one in Majorca last February with Saga, and are going to the Canary Islands with GC next March. Some of these are all-inclusive; some are breakfast and dinner only; some are just breakfast. Grand Circle has an "Eat-Around" arrangement where you can get vouchers to a limited number of local restaurants and have your lunches or dinners there. You stay in one hotel, and there are included bus tours, which you need not take. The included tours vary from about every other day to none, depending on the package. You can rent a car and plan your own itinerary. It has flexibility, but also the presence of a representative who meets you at the airport and gets you to the hotel and back, as well as providing information and help at the hotel. Presently such packages are offered for Spain, Italy, Greece, and Turkey. I believe there is a variation offered for Switzerland as well. Obviously, the independed traveler would still find this too limiting, but we find such packages a nice compromise.

gemmi

Wow, this is a great thread. I've only done independent travel. Although I find it exceptionally economical, and don't mind doing the research, I've wondered if we would have been more relaxed on a tour by not worrying about the driving, looking for parking, having someone give us information about the sites, avoiding some problematic situations like dangerous areas, etc.

Linda

One of the best parts of independent travel is your ability to interact with the people who live in the countries. We played 21 with a German train conductor (our German was not good then but we could count & teach him), talked with women & men who shared our compartment. We decided to stay in Florence and watch what I would call a medieval football/rugby game & changed our itinerary several times for events or because we just liked the town in which we were. Yes, it takes more planning but you really should know about a place before you go & not just be fed the information. When I have gone to Europe, it has been 2 females (different ones but always 2 of us). We have never had a problem; in fact, locals & other tourists seem more protective. With 2, someone can stay with the luggage, etc., if one needs to do something & someone is there is one get sick or go missing. Sometimes you do miss events or places because you have not done enough research or the tours have gotten all the tickets but independent travel assets rank higher than the liabilities.

tina

Tours- good for older people, disorganised people (hehe), families, seeing 'everything' <BR> <BR>Independent- independence!!! <BR> <BR>If you choose to tour, try to keep some independence eg. on 'free days', don't stick with the group, don't eat with teh group when you don't have to, find a place for yourself (somewhere quiet, special).

Sandra

Before I met my husband, I didn't really have anyone to travel with. I thought that organized tours were great for someone like me -- a single woman who had limited experience travelling. I have also been on tours with my mother, who likes the peace of mind and security that goes with an organized tour. <BR> <BR>Now that I am married, my husband and I go independent and we like that. <BR> <BR>So there is good to both.

Mags

Well at the expense of repeating what everyone else has said here is my 'two cents' <BR>Last year my family...husband and 20 yr old daughter did a 26 day bus tour of Europe. It was the first trip to Europe for my family although I had been there many years ago. It really depends on YOU. My husband is not the very adventurous type and was very happy with the tour. He is also by nature an early riser so no problems. This year I decided that I would like to try going independently and spent almost 8 months planning on the internet and with the help of this forum and books and maps from amazon.com, We spent 3 glorious weeks,in Spain and Portugal never got lost,had lots of fun and did EXACTLY what we wanted ... WHEN we wanted! <BR>Our hotels were all in the CENTRE of the cities(not so on the tours) which gave us the freedom and opportunity to REALLY enjoy EVERYTHING.. even just people watching. Also the cost was about 1/3 of what the tour cost so that even though we DID have to buy all our meals it gave us opportunities to try all the little restaurants etc and not have to eat unimaginative meals with 40 other people. <BR>Of course on tour we made some great friends who we correspond with regularly <BR>and the cameraderie was great. <BR>All the other comments from other messages are true as well as to WHERE you travel, age, language barriers etc. By the way we are in our early 50's!!! <BR>