PalenQ

none of my many in-laws for French friends would ever think of tipping and when I even leave some small change they chide me as a 'rich American' for so doing. Perhaps my in-laws are cheapskates but I think they represent what normal French folks would do at normal restaurants - just like kerouac's buds. I have even heard that some waiters do not like tipping - considering themselves to be professional wait staff and not some lowly paid lapdog like we have where wait people have to mollycoddle customers and grovel for tips.

That said IME expect more formal service than the friendly 'oh is there anything else I can do' attitude back home.

kerouac

Michel_Paris, you are indeed correct. I was a partner in a café for several years. (Yes, I can drag up the report that I made if anybody wants to see it again.) The employees earned minimum wage (because we could not pay more for a neighborhood café), but they never considered tips to be of importance. All tips were thrown into a coffee can and shared equally once a month among the salaried employees (not me or any of the other partners).

Naturally, they were happy to receive extra money, but they never found it normal to be tipped more than a few cents. Frankly, they were shocked by the tips after 9-11 because there was an Orion apartment hotel down the street, with quite a few Americans stuck there when all flights were cancelled. A number of them chose our café to come and have breakfast every morning and pore over the IHT for hours. They had no idea what to do with their days and no longer much interest in doing "tourist stuff." They seemed to think that they should tip extra for hanging out so long in the café, and often our head waiter, Vincent, had to refuse their big tips. He felt insulted that they thought he was in need when they were the unhappy ones.

Elainee

Just returned from 3 weeks in Bruge, Paris, Sicily,and Rome. (Yes, a bit too much running around, but we were only in Rome one day to have dinner with friends.) We had no indication that money beyond the included service charge was expected, except for one restaurant in Paris where most of the clients were Americans. Then and only then did the waiter "wait" after we signed the credit card. I watched carefully the local clients and they did not tip. In places where we had included breakfast and where we stayed several days, still no expectation of tip, even if we had to sign a restaurant bill.

PalenQ

Yes waiters, like any sane person, will work folks for money they do not deserve if folks are foolish or naive enough to give it to them. At least I would.

Paul1950

The average salary for a restaurant worker in western Europe is about 15,000 euros a year. I doubt that the average restaurant worker is living high off the hog with that amount of money. Still, I go with the local customs when it comes to tipping--which means little or no tip in most countries.

kerouac

You should know that in major tourist areas, the waiters buy their jobs from each other for significant amounts. That should "tip" you off on whether you should be tipping excessively.

PalenQ

Paul - but in France a waiter I understand gets full medical care and benefits = priceless in many ways - I often see the same wait people at ordinary cafes like in the Saran train station - for years - they are I understand well paid and with benefits as well - one reason I think prices at say McDonalds and cafes are so high compared to the U.S. is that first service is included - here we basically pay the salary of the waiters with tips - but in France at least I think any employee has great benefits by law - at least permanent employees over a young age, etc.

anyway waiters I think consider themselves professionals in France - unlike the folks here who have to grovel for tips - I also think this at times results in service that is not so patronizing to the customer as where the wait folk depend on the customers for their salaries - I do prefer the French system where all waiters I believe get full benefits like the best medical care in the world at little cost to them.

Pvoyageuse

"I do prefer the French system where all waiters I believe get full benefits like the best medical care in the world at little cost to them."

Little cost? approx 23% of all employees'gross salary is deducted for various social benefits (health care, retirement pension etc...).

StuDudley

>>the folks here who have to grovel for tips<<<

How do I identify a US waiter "groveling"? At the restaurants we frequent here in San Francisco, waiters don't act any differently then they do in France, IMO.

Stu Dudley

Leely2

I have been told by Parisians (not waiters, but people I was dining with, including some who are pretty into food and eat out a lot) to tip "what you like, if you like, what you think is good if the service was good, but not <i>too</i> much." How's that for clarification?

I had lunch at a restaurant recommended here on Fodor's right underneath the apartment we had rented in Rome this April. Paid with a credit card. The waiter came over and said, "Oh, there is a space here for you to add your tip." Never heard that one before. Not anywhere.

AnthonyGA

At restaurants, the tip is included in your bill. This is by law, not just by custom.

Some waiters will fraudulently attempt to convince you otherwise if they see that you are a tourist, so beware.

You can tip taxi drivers, however, and this is customary.

PalenQ

Well why not tip everyone who does any service to you - train ticket window clerks, bus drivers, metro drivers, supermarket clerks - they all make about the same as waiters probably.

Even though the employee may pay 23% the employer pays a whole lot more - lots of American wait folk would love to pay 23% of their wages and get the creme de la creme health care French workers get -most of the cost paid for by their employer I believe.

Pvoyageuse

"At restaurants, the tip is included in your bill. This is by law, not just by custom."

Service is included by law, tips are not.

AnthonyGA

Service and tips are the same thing.

kerouac

No, I disagree about that. Service is a very vague idea that exists for reasons of taxation of food and drink establishments. I do not understand the exact workings, but I have seen 16% to 10% as the amount marked on receipts and very often "service gratuit" in ethnic restaurants. And as you know, there is no service in places like McDonald's or the other fast food and/or takeaway places.

It has no bearing on the perfectly decent salaries of the waiters, other than -- as I wrote -- perhaps modifying the taxation of the employer.

Tips are different. Thank god, French waiters do not work for tips. In fact, the most common method is for tips to be thrown into a common pot for all of the employees to share -- including the cooks and dishwashers, which are just as important as the front line staff, if not more.

This little extra bit is nice, but not really a part of the culture. Visitors to France, please do not abuse the concept of tips as they may be practiced in your own country. Round up to the next euro, of if everything is wonderful, 2 euros is a wonderful tip. Anything more is an insult to local culture and implies that you consider the employees to be serfs.

kerouac

That should be "or if everything is wonderful"

baladeuse

The "tip-off" (pun intended) for us was that when we paid by credit card in restaurants in Paris, the usual line on the receipt where you add the tip in North American restaurants was missing. So it was clear that a tip was not expected. My husband still left a euro or two on the table anyway. We try to respect local custom while acknowledging the irresistible North American urge to tip.

StuDudley

baladeuse
There may be another reason for not having a place for a tip on the "receipt". When you receive the receipt, your CC has already been "charged" - so the restaurant can't go back and add "more" if you want to include a tip on the CC transaction. Thus, if you want to tip - people leave cash.

In the US, I believe that the actual CC transaction does not occur until the customer has signed the "bill" and adds in the tip.

I was at a restaurant in San Francisco last Wednesday where the menu said that they will automatically add an 18% tip for parties of 6 or more (normal practice). It also said that they will add an 18% "tip" charge if the customer takes both copies of the CC "bill", and leaves no copies for the waiter to process.

Stu Dudley

Nikki

"Anything more is an insult to local culture and implies that you consider the employees to be serfs."

I am all in favor of respecting local customs but don't go around imputing motives to those who don't know what they are or have received confusing accounts of them from guidebooks, discussions such as this, or whatever sources are out there (including conflicting advice from locals). I would venture to say that not a single person who has said they leave a larger tip than the amount cited by kerouac considers restaurant employees to be serfs.

kerouac

And of course, you will agree that it is only because I purposely used an obsolete word. ;-)