TiggerToo

USAA also has true chip and PIN cards. Citibank also has them - I have one, and no, it's not chip and sig. I also think my Barclay's card is now true chip and PIN.

Citibank's federal credit cards (the ones they issue to the US military and government civilians) are true chip and PIN as well (I also have one of them, being active duty Air Force). Those were the first to switch over.

Once merchants actually start getting nailed with reimbursements from fraud, believe me....things will start changing really quick as the bills begin to pile up.

As Kerouac mentioned, there is a code sent to the European consumer when an online transaction occurs, and failure to answer halts the transaction. Online fraud rates are far, far lower in Europe than in the US, and chip and PIN is most of the reason. (I am married to a Brit, so there are European bank accounts in my family.)

Banks and merchants alike are starting to not look at fraud as a small problem, hence the law changes. It's a HUGE problem, and our backwards system does nothing but propagate it. Just ask Target...and Home Depot....and Best Buy....it is not a victimless crime as some believe (just because you get your money back doesn't negate the fact that a crime was committed against you, although someone tried to convince me otherwise). We all pay in the form of higher fees and higher prices across the board. Fraud costs BILLIONS annually. We're not doing enough to stop it. Chip and PIN will help.

And given the amount of plastic the average Brit carries, I think those banks have no fear of cards going unused - you still have to insert the card in the slot, you just don't sign.

Kerouac, that code thing we use in England feels a bit like ApplePay, but done online. I wonder if that's also coming this way (that would be GREAT IMHO).

Michael

<i>As Kerouac mentioned, there is a code sent to the European consumer when an online transaction occurs, and failure to answer halts the transaction.</i>

That excludes a lot of the population:

"In 2013, 36.7 percent of the French population accessed the internet from their mobile phone. This figure is expected to grow to 65.2 percent in 2017."

xyz123

Tigertoo...Citibank does issue true chip and pin cards only to federal government agencies. They do not issue chip and pin cards to the general public.

As far as USAA...when they first began issuing emv compliant cards in 2013, they indeed were true chip and pin cards. I had one and used it a few times in Europe during the summer of 2013. It was never my favorite card as it had a 1% foreign transaction fee and I have cards with the proper foreign transaction fee namely 0% like in zero percent. But I did enjoy the convenience.

Unfortunately in April 2014, they changed their mind and when I replaced by card before a summer trip in 2014, I discovered much to my chagrin it was now a signature preferred card. CSR after CSR told me they had not made ;a change. Finally I found somebody in the President's office who knew what I was talking about and did tell me yes they had changed their minds. I asked why and they told me for business purposes. If you are lucky enough to have a grandfathered USAA card which is pin preferred, your honeymoon with this will end when the card is renewed. They no longer issue true chip and pin cards but rather chip and signature cards with pin capabilities.

As far as Barclays Bank USA, all their cards are chip and signature with pin capabilities. Their literature explain their reasoning for this decision and it is the usual bunch of lies those of us (including me despite what you may believe) who want chip and pin if only to be universally accepted throughout the world have come to expect. (convenience, forgetting pins, customer preferences yada yada yada).

Although it is repetitive but I'll try again. The only two financial institutions where Americans can get true chip and pin cards today are UNFCU, but it has a 1% ftf and First Tech FCU but the card without an annual fee has no rewards program. Now since I'm on the lookout for a true chip and pin card with no annual fee, no ftf and a decent rewards program available to US residents, if somebody can help me out, I would appreciate it.

kerouac

<i>In 2013, 36.7 percent of the French population accessed the internet from their mobile phone. This figure is expected to grow to 65.2 percent in 2017</i>

I never access the internet from my mobile phone and have no intention of ever doing so, because I hate my mobile phone. But my banks have the phone number, so I receive the code on it when I do a transaction on my computer.

spetho2001

Chip & Pin Credit Cards

3:14 pm, today




I am assuming all credit cards issued by Italian banks use CHIP & PIN technology. I believe, if I am correct, that they only work if you are at an ATM machine where you can punch in your PIN number. My question would be, how do Italians order stuff from a mail order house such as Amazon, using the telephone or the Internet when there is no way to enter their PIN number?
Thank you,
TomS

denmal

I have a capital one card that does not have a chip yet - and I will not get it before I leave for Paris - will it still work ??

Southam

To spetho2001: Chip and Pin is mainly for credit cards, not ATM cards. C&P requires the merchant to have a card reader that recognizes the chip; the user enters the Personal Identification Number. No signature; higher security. While it may be possible to use a C&P credit card in an ATM to extract cash, that money is considered a loan rather than a withdrawal from your chequing account, and the interest on that loan is knee-cracking high. Posts on another thread about this subject suggested some US C&P cards now connect to accounts in an ATM. I wonder if this is just confusion on the terms, or whether some US banks have evolved special technology. Given how American firms have been so far behind in this area, I'm betting on misunderstanding.

hetismij2

you order online exactly as you do with a swipe credit card - fill in the number, name on the card, expiry date and the CVC.
I use Verified by Visa too, as an extra security step.

Credit cards shouldn't be used at ATMs except in an emergency, because you are paying for a cash loan, which is expensive. You should only use a credit card at a POS terminal.

happytourist

We just got back from three weeks in Europe where I used a USAA chip and pin card frequently. The only time I had to enter a PIN was when I was trying to buy a train ticket at Termini Station in Rome. The machine asked for a PIN but refused to recognize it, so I had to buy from the agent. I was afraid that my card was frozen as a result, but it was just a one-time refusal--have no idea why.

Sarastro

<i>I am assuming all credit cards issued by Italian banks use CHIP & PIN technology. </i>

French banks, which should be the same as Italian banks, do not issue credit cards. They issue bank cards instead. Bank cards look the same as credit cards but bank cards, when inserted into an ATM machine, operate in the same way as a USA debit cards. When used to purchase merchandise, bank cards operated in the same way as a USA credit card. There is really little advantage to the consumer to have separate debit cards and credit cards. All European cards are chip & PIN.

Chip & PIN technology is used by banks all over the world, except in the USA.

<i>how do Italians order stuff from a mail order house such as Amazon, using the telephone or the Internet when there is no way to enter their PIN number?</i>

PINs are not used for on line transactions but European banks use other strategies to deter fraud such as requiring a text confirmation of any online purchase.

<i>I have a capital one card that does not have a chip yet - and I will not get it before I leave for Paris - will it still work ?</i>

It will work at manned locations such as store and hotels. It will likely not work at unmanned locations such as ticket kiosks and pay at the pump fuel stations.

<i>Chip and Pin is mainly for credit cards, not ATM cards</i>

True mostly for the US only. ATMs can typically read both formats but ATM cards issued from us banks only have magnetic strips.

spetho2001

Thank you everyone. It is very confusing. First to the long post by XYZ123, chip cards issued in the U.S. are not Chip & Pin technology but are Chip & Signature which is very confusing because no one seems to know if the U.S. is going to Chip & Pin. The U.S. Government required all credit cards to be chip cards by Oct 2015 I believe but I do not know if it is stated that they should be Chip & Pin. Europe and every other country in the world, I believe, are Chip & Pin, and you have to be at the POS or ATM terminal and use a PIN # to use the card. No exception, like in the U.S. where anything goes!
If you get a U.S. issued Chip & Signature card you can call and create a PIN # as I did with my Chase/British Airways Chip & Signature card, and then it works fine in the unmanned kiosk in Italy using the PIN I created. You should create PIN #'s for all your credit cards so you can use them in ATM machines in case of an emergency and you need cash. Like everyone stated it would be a loan with interest because unlike an ATM debit card the money is not coming out of your account. I had to do this one time in Italy as I had my pockets picked and lost my debit card. U.S. banks will not usually send another debit card to your hotel while you are traveling. So you are stuck with no way to get cash.
Again, the long post by XYZ, my British Airways/Chase Chip & Signature card that I created a PIN # for works fine in the kiosk in Italy that does ask me for a PIN.
Sarastro, good info but most cards are not issued with PIN #'s in the U.S.. You have to call the bank and create your own PIN.
Tiger Too, I have a new chip CitiCard and it is a Chip & Signature card. OK I see XYZ says they only issue them to federal Employees.
Sarastro, Good info on the online sales. I had read somewhere or friends in Europe told me that banks in Europe do not issue credit cards as we have in the U.S. where you can charge money you do not have. They issue deposit or bank or bank ATM. prepaid cards in which you have to deposit money in the account to use the card. With a PIN.??
Thank again,
TomS

Underhill

Citibank Visa offers a virtual credit card for use in making Internet purchases. The number generated is a one-time-only use; so no worry about having it stolen.

xyz123

spetho...not questioning one thing you wrote. Yes you can get a pin for most every card issued by a US bank. In almost all cases, it is what is called an online pin as opposed to the standard offline pin used in many kiosks. It would be confusing to go through the difference. I will simply say this. Every so often an online pin will work in a kiosk but it is hardly universal. For example, I have a Bank of America travel rewards card. The csr's swore up and down when I requested a pin if I used it, it would cause the transaction to be tagged as a cash advance with all its assorted fees. Lo and behold when I was at the CPH airport last May, I bought a one day transit pass from a kiosk. It asked for my pin I used the cash advance pin. It worked and of course the transaction was a purchase not cash.

For the most part, but nothing is universal, online pins that is the pins issued by US banks for use in ATM's will not work in those kiosks which violate the new mc/visa rules regarding no rejection of emv compliant cards for lack of a pin but obviously there are and will always be exceptions.

JP Morgan Chase, which I believe issues the BA card, has stated emphatically at the present time it has no plans to issue chip and pin cards (despite the fact that early on, they said the would but they've gone back on that). We stand today at least in the USA, where we have stood for a while. The vast majority of US credit cards which have emv chips are primarily chip and signature with many but by no means all having provisions for an offline pin for use in many kiosks.

Finally, there is one other error in your post. The US Government has issued no regulations regarding chipped cards. To avoid such a proclamation by the government, the networks set the 01 October 2015 deadline for what is known as a liability shift. Merchants are not required to have put into use emv compliant terminals. However, if a fraudulent transaction is done at a merchant lacking the new terminal with a chipped card, the liability for fraud shifts to the merchant. Quite frankly, the majority of merchants have ignored the deadline and most places here are still not usig the chipped cards the way they're supposed to.

Hope that clarifies the situation. Sarastro has done a good job trying to explain the difference between an online and offline pin.

Sarastro

<i>chip cards issued in the U.S. are not Chip & Pin technology but are Chip & Signature which is very confusing because no one seems to know if the U.S. is going to Chip & Pin.</i>

The US cards do use the Chip & PIN technology also known as the EMV standard. There are a handful of US banks issuing chip & PIN cards but most banks only use part of the technology, the chip part. This primarily protects the banks from the fraudulent duplication of a stolen credit card. It does little to protect the merchants who must still technically confirm the signature of the user against the signature on his credit card.

What has not been adopted in the US is the PIN portion of the technology when the card is used for purchases.

PINs are available for any credit card. Magnetic strip cards all have PINs. However, PIN use within the US, using a US credit card, is limited mostly to ATM withdrawals. These transactions are handled as instant loans at outrageous rates of interest.

The only place in the USA when you might be asked for a PIN, to complete a purchase, using a chip & PIN credit card, is at Wallmart. Wallmart has completely integrated their credit card operations into the EMV standard.

<i>If you get a U.S. issued Chip & Signature card you can call and create a PIN # as I did</i>

Obtaining a PIN for a chip & signature card, does NOT make your card a chip & PIN card. The difference is in how the default transaction is processed. The default transaction is defined as a purchase made at a manned location such as a restaurant, hotel, or a store. When purchases are made at these types of locations, those with chip & signature cards will sign to complete the transaction. Those with chip & PIN cards will simply input their PIN.

At unattended locations such as ticket kiosks, parking lots, or pay-at-the-pump gas stations, PINs must be used by everyone who pays. This is why your chip & signature card has a PIN (other than to put your US credit card into an ATM to initiate an instant loan).

For small purchases using some cards, it is possible to complete a purchase without signing or using a PIN.

All of these parameters, chip & PIN vs. chip & signature, off-line PIN vs. on-line PIN, and threshold dollars amounts where no PIN/signature is required at purchase are all determined by the card issuing bank.

<i>banks in Europe do not issue credit cards</i>

This is correct; European banks issue bank cards instead. When a bank card is placed into an ATM, cash is withdrawn from your bank account. When a bank card is used to make a purchase, the total of these purchases, subject to a predetermined cap, is paid from your bank account at a specific monthly date.

European banks do not allow customers unlimited access to funds that they do not have. All accounts are paid in full at least once per month.

<i> The csr's swore up and down when I requested a pin if I used it, it would cause the transaction to be tagged as a cash advance with all its assorted fees.</i>

What the csr did not say is that his description only pertains to ATM use. Using the PIN to complete the transaction at a kiosk will not be tagged as a cash advance as you have found out.

Yours is not the first post by someone who was told the same thing by a bank's customer service. Many of these bank representatives really do not understand the simple mechanics of how EMV technology works. Confused bank customers confuse others when bad advice from the bank is repeated on public forums.

xyz123

sarastro...While most of your information is correct and I am nt looking to nit pick I think you are in error in generalizing that European banks do not issue credit cards. I am quite sure banks in the UK issue credit card. As a matter of fact, and this dates back close to 50 years, from the beginning Barclaycard issued by Barclay Bank in the UK was a credit card and had a reciprocal arrangement with Bank Americard which later became visa to honor each other cards. It was the first credit card (Bank Americard) I could use outside the USA other than the Travel & Entertainment cards (Amex and Diners and Carte Blanche) which had more stringent requirements. In Canada, early on, the reciprocal card issued by several banks which was compatible with BankAmericard was called Chargex. France soon joined in with Carte Bleu but Carte Bleu was more or less a debit card. And then credit card use proliferated throughout much of the civilized world. But the British banks to the best of my knowledge (unless you don't consider Great Britain to be part of Europe which many of our British friends have always claimed; I remember taking the Night Ferry outof London Victoria years ago before the Chunnel and the sign said Europe this way).

One other thing. I've always kidded with people that they can give their emv compliant cards the Walmart test. If the card is pin preferred, the Walmart terminals will always ask for a pin for all transactions no matter how large or small. If OTOH the card is signature preferred, for small purchases it will simply complete the transaction with no cvm. For purchases over $50, a signature will be requested on the signature pad. Not that any clerk ever bothers to look at it and at self service checkouts, there are no clerks. So much for using signatures for security.

hetismij2

Dutch banks, and various other organisations issue credit cards here in the Netherlands. Proper credit cards, but with a credit limit based on your income, payment record etc. You do not have to pay it off every month but interest rates are quite high so it is expensive not to do so. Taking cash from an ATM with one is expensive as I said up thread as it is treated as a cash loan.

We also have bank issued cards, for use in ATMs and POS terminals(shops etc,) and indeed for internet banking as part of the authentication process, linked to our current accounts.

Our Visa cards are issued by our health insurer, but administered by a credit card company. It is a free card, unlike those from the banks for which you pay an annual fee.

British banks also issue proper credit cards. We had a Barclaycard before we moved to the Netherlands, 31 years ago, and kept it for many years until getting our current Visa cards.
DH also has an AmEx card connected to KLM.

chartley

As a long-time British holder of both credit cards and debit cards, I can confirm that British banks issue credit cards. In addition, in recent years store cards have also become general-use credit cards, so I have cards from both John Lewis and Marks & Spencer which I can use as credit cards anywhere in the world, and get rewards in the form of vouchers to spend in those stores.

All of my credit cards are chip & pin, as is the debit card issued by my bank. This is used both to get cash and to use when buying things in person, online or over the phone. It also has an RFID chip, so can be used as wave and pay for smaller amounts. There is no pre-set limit when used as chip & pin, and as the banks charge the receiver of the funds a set fee, rather than a percentage, this type of card is popular for certain transactions. For example, easyJet charge a fee if you use a credit card, but not if you use a debit card. The consumer protection is less than with a credit card, so there is a judgement to make.

Different European countries have different practices and attitudes, so it is not easy to describe a particular system as European. However, as far as I am aware, all use chip & pin, which has the advantage in a multi-lingual situation of not requiring conversation or approval of a signature - it either works or it doesn't, and can be blamed on the system if necessary.

A few years back, I was involved in accepting card payments. The commission we were charged depended on the method used, and its security. Chip & pin by machine was charged the lowest commission, while the highest was on "card not present" transactions, where the card number was keyed in. Card and signature was somewhere in-between. This may explain a reluctance to accept card with signature in certain situations, just as some retailers do not accept Amex because the commission is higher.

I am always intrigued by the statement that Mastercard and Visa require the universal acceptance of signature-verified cards. My understanding of British law is that credit card acceptance is a service offered by a supplier, and would not be considered "legal tender" in the settlement of a debt. Similarly, a retailer is not obliged to sell you something at a particular price just because that is the price displayed. There are safeguards to this rule in terms of fraud or discriminatory practices, but if an unstaffed ticket machine refuses your card because you cannot input a pin, it will be up to you to find an alternative payment method. I cannot see the rest of the world indefinitely accepting the increased costs of an insecure American payment system. If it really isn't a problem, then let's all give up on security all the time.

xyz123

All the visa/mc merchant agreements worldwide have a statement that local and national laws supersede the merchant agreements. For example, the agreements while allowing a merchant to request ID state that a merchant should not refuse to complete a credit card transaction if the customer refuses to show ID. In Spain, for example, it is extremely common for merchants to ask for ID. I wonder if this is because Spanish aw states merchants can ask for ID superseding the merchant agreement. Of course it is never a good idea to show ID to make a credit card purchase. While credit card fraud can be a little bit of an inconvenience, it is easy to remedy and ultimately the customer has zero liability for such fraud. ID theft is a horse of a different color and by showing say your passport, a clerk can see your birth date and passport number and could conceivably use that information for identity theft; a much more difficult problem to deal with. Chances of this happening are small, granted, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

Danish merchants charge higher surcharges for foreign issued cards than domestic ons because the banks do. Different countries have their own peculiarities on issues such as this. BTW the kiosks I deal with in the UK say those at the main line train stations do not require pins. They complete transactions with no cvm at least for transactions the size I do (say the train from Victoria to and from Gatwick Airport).

But wouldn't refusing to accept American chip and signature cards be like cutting off your nose to spite your face? Think of the lost revenue. It just will most likely not happen in tourist spots. And also Britain has the same handicapped groups screaming bloody murder all the time and when the UK went over to chip and pin a decade ago, these groups were able to force the banking regulators to insert a provision that the banks must issue cards which didn't require pins for some handicapped people. The solution was to issue chip and signature cards. Of course, that means that US citizens with chip and signature cards are handicapped because the banks don't issue pin preferred cards here. <g>

bvlenci

<i> ... the vast majority of my online transactions in Europe are now governed by an SMS code that I receive on my mobile phone within 10 seconds of engaging in a purchase. </i>

How does this prevent a thief from registering as a new client using their own cell phone number and then making false purchases with your credit card?

fuzzbucket

I just received my new US debit and credit cards from CapitalOne and both now have chips. As always, a PIN is used for ATM withdrawals, but a signature is required to complete purchases. Anytime I use an ATM to withdraw cash, I will be charged a $2 fee plus a 3% transaction fee. Purchases are supposed to be free of these charges. Needless to say, I don't use these cards unless it's an absolute emergency.

My French bank card - which works like a debit card - is equipped with chip and PIN technology and there are no transaction fees.