Aramis

Hmmm. I guess things really can get lost communicating via text. I was actually trying to address the condescension that the other posters delivered. My first three sentences were facetious and not aimed at you.

It is ridiculous to lecture pople on the fact that it takes time to get from one place to another or to tell someone that their dream trip cant be accomplished without ruining the experience. I hate the 'do what I say or you wont have a good trip' approach of many responders.

If I missed the mark that much I apologize. Try reading the responses before mine again and then mine. I think my final line and the fact that I wasnt lecturing youmake my point.

menachem

Why anyone would want to take Venice out of their schedule to "have time somewhere else" is a mystery to me. Skip Bruges, have a Belgian beer in Amsterdam instead of a smoke, buy chocolates in the train station.

BTW, As a Dutch person I've grown to have a dim view of tourists visiting the Amsterdam only because of smokes. The entire area catering to this in Amsterdam is criminal and thrives modern day slavery, so why anyone would find that "fun" is also beyond me. The city is beautiful without smoking yourself silly.

SusannahT

I also endorse Aramis's itinerary. I think Venice is magical and worthy of 2 nights, at least. Enjoy planning!

PAplumber

I would drop Italy all together and spend my two weeks in the Benelux area, with a little Germany or France thrown in to make it interesting. Enjoy your smoke in Amsterdam, I start all my Europe adventures with a smoke in Amsterdam it's the best way to get over jet lag. Italy is worth 2 weeks on it's own imho

Mimar

To answer a question, Siena is easier to get to from Florence. It's a straight bus ride that leaves you in the historic center of Siena. You can also take the train to Siena, where the station is outside the walls. For San Gimignano, you have to bus or train to Poggibonsi, then change to a bus to SG. San Gimignano is a much smaller place than Siena, with less to see.

kybourbon

>>>It is ridiculous to lecture pople on the fact that it takes time to get from one place to another<<<

I disagree, but I don't consider people giving advice on this thread are lecturing either. People that haven't traveled in Europe before don't have a clue how long getting around by public transport might take them. They aren't used to buying tickets in another language, etc. Getting oriented in each new city does take time, often more than you thought it would (even for experienced travelers). Budget flights are a lot more strict about check-in times which typically means not in line to check-in, but completely checked-in.

schampaco01 - I often see cheaper flights into Brussels than Amsterdam so you might consider starting there. You might also find better flight connections from Amsterdam to Italy.

>>>Rome- 4 nights
train to Florence- 4 nights
train to Venice- 1 night
fly home<<<

This might not be the best order or most efficient. Why have you selected the number of nights in Florence? It would seem you should take a night from Florence and add to Venice. I would also plan to end the trip in Rome as the flight options back to the states won't depart as early as from Venice and there are more non-stop flights to the US.

charnees

I agree with kybourbon. that you should fly home from Rome. Getting to the airport at the crack of dawn in Venice is not fun, as the vaporettos are not running often, and water taxis, etc. are pricey. So I would say 2 nights Venice, three in Florence, and four in Rome makes more sense, in that order.

When departing from Rome, hire a limo service such as Romeshuttlelimousine.com. They are reliable, on time, and operate on a fixed price of 40 euros from central Rome. If there are four of you, one will work. If there are eight, you will need two.

Our daughter and her two teenagers went to Bruges and Brussels a couple of weeks ago and though Brussels was nicer. The chocolate and sights are not all that different, but they preferred Brussels.

Going to Amsterdam just to get high seems like a waste of your time and money, not to mention yourself getting wasted. You can do that at home. But if that is your goal, do look carefully at the current laws before you make the commitment to go there.

PAplumber

It's your time and money, have fun with whatever you do, I understand the attraction to go to a coffee shop in Amsterdam

schampaco01

@Aramis, I see what you mean. If your beginning remarks started with italics, I probably wouldn't have misread them. Thanks again for travel time information. This has helped out greatly.

@artstuff, thanks for the positive outlook on the coffee shops and links to the forum.

As a group we would like to start our trip with a little fun. If we can find a place with live music to enjoy, that would be great! We are not going to Amsterdam strictly for coffee shops. It just checks off a couple of my groups 'to do' personal list. Also, I really want to ride a bicycle on the beautiful canals and see the Ann Frank house.

We had planned for 4 nights in Florence to leave time for San Gimignano and Tuscany. The TA had suggested this so I can get to see the medieval towers and Tuscany for a relaxing day in the countryside.


Thank you Charnees for the limo link. It does seem flying out of Rome would make more sense. We will have to look in to it.

BTW, there are 8 adults traveling total.

ekc

Just to give you an idea, here is what you are looking at for the Italy portion of your trip (leaving off the "cafe" portion of the itinerary):

Day 1: pack, check out of hotel, have breakfast, get to airport 2 hours before flight, check in, flight, arrive Venice airport mid-morning (if lucky), baggage, vaporetto to Venice, get to hotel, check-in, unpack, have lunch, wander Venice, dinner, sleep
Day 2: Venice
Day 3: pack, check out of hotel, vaporetto to train station, 2 hr train to Florence, get to hotel, check-in, lunch, afternoon in Florence.
Day 4: Florence
Day 5: Tour of San G and Tuscany (in a BIG van if there are 8 of you), sleep in Florence.
Day 6: pack, check out of hotel, get to train station, 1.5 hr train to Rome, get to hotel, check into hotel, unpack, eat lunch, afternoon wandering in Rome, dinner, sleep.
Day 7: Rome (Ancient Rome)
Day 9: Rome (Vatican/St. Peter's)
Day 10: Rome (everything else you missed)
Day 11: fly home

Bring comfortable shoes - that's alot of walking to/from train stations, etc.! Buon Viaggio!!

annhig

what ekc said. the more places you cram into a trip, the less time you actually have to do or see things, and the more time you spend at boring places like airports and train stations. And that's if all your arrangements work out.

another snag with moving around a lot is that it costs more than staying still. not just with the extra transport costs, but you have less time to find that nice but reasonably priced cafe, the bar with the decent cheap beer, the deli with the lovely sandwiches, etc. etc.

also IMO the itinerary you have at the moment sells Venice in particular very short, and given this week's flooding, we may not have it for much longer. you are losing two whole days just to spend a night in Bruges. it would be much more efficient to skip Bruges, fly straight from amsterdam to Venice, and continue you trip from there. i would also borrow a night from Florence, and then do this:

Day 1 - fly into amsterdam. stay 3 nights.

day 4 - fly to Venice - stay 3 nights

Day 7 - train to Florence [doesn't take long, you will get there in time for lunch of you get an early train] stay 3 nights.

Day 10 - train to Rome - stay 4 nights.

i would leave day trips to another time, but you can always change your minds once you are there.

janisj

OK -I see even bigger problems . . . I thought you meant 2 couples/4 people but now I see it is 4 couples and <B>eight</B> people.

Every additional person adds complications - just the nature of things. Everyone will be on a different 'body clock' especially when talking about jetlag. Some of you may be fine and some of you may suffer quite a lot and for a few days.

Plus organizing a group that size really is like herding cats. Everyone will have to move at the same pace, get to the stations at the same time, etc. Probably ain't going to happen.

I've taken groups from 5 to 13 and TRUST me - the simpler the itinerary the better.

You will be much happier hitting fewer destinations-

annhig

yes, what jj said.

if there are 8 of you, your problems and delays will increase exponentially.

mjs

I like annhg's itinerary. Could also do AMS to FCO and return via Venice if the flights work out better.

annhig

I like annhg's itinerary.>>

mjs - i like it too.

trouble is I'm much better at designing other people's itineraries than I am at doing my own, as like packing, I always try to do too much!

there's a thought - how is an itinerary like a suitcase? - because you always want to pack too much in.

StCirq

Oh boy, 8 people! I've taken groups of 8. Even if they are a compatible group, that's a challenge. Here are just some of the issues I've encountered (and these were on trips where everyone had at least a rough schedule ahead of time and knew the expectations):

Someone always brings way too much luggage

Someone always likes to sleep in

Someone always takes too much time to get ready in the morning

Someone always walks really slowly

Someone always gets tired easily

Someone is always a picky eater

Someone is always chronically late to meet up with the others

Someone always gets lost

Someone is always overcome by being in another culture, and someone else always assumes that it should be just like home

Someone always loses something

Someone always wants to party more than the others

And so on...

If you're being paid to guide a group around and deal with these issues, you expect it and schedule accordingly and handle it as graciously as possible. If you're just a group touring, these issues can become part of the fabric of the trip, and not in a good way. I hope you've all thought about this and figured out in advance what accommodations you may need to make. Not saying that your group won't be perfectly compatible (I hope it is), but you might want to think about this before you go. Last, I would strongly advise not to tour around in a pack.

kybourbon

>>>Someone always likes to sleep in<<<

Someone always wants to go to bed with the chickens (last person I traveled with wanted to go to bed at 8pm).

Someone always needs to eat dinner at 5pm.

robertino

Someone always spends a week sleeping off the hash

charnees

I organized a week's stay at a villa in Italy for 8 people. Based on that, here are some rules you need to impose starting now.

1. Everyone arranges their own transportation to and from Europe. Do not try to book all these yourself and be financially responsible for them.

2. if you are all going to stay in hotels, then everyone should make their own arrangements there, too. if you are going to rent apartments/villas, everyone MUST get travel insurance to cover their share of the rental costs. And everyone must commit NOW to paying their share of costs from here on out. You do not want to have to be stuck with costs of someone who bows out later, for whatever reason. (one person in our group who was in excellent health was diagnosed with a lethal brain tumor after the arrangements were made, did not get travel insurance, and was reduced to poverty by the costs of the illness. This made the rest of us have to pay her obligations.) You may find that your group gets smaller once people face making that financial commitment.

3. If you are going to rent vehicles, the same rule about travel insurance applies. DO rent more than one car. Everyone may not always want to go on the same excursions, and should not be stuck if they don't go. Besides, a van that holds eight people and their luggage will be quite large, and harder to maneuver in narrow streets and tight corners.

4. If you are going to share cooking in a group accommodation. set up a "kitty" at the start with a contribution from each person. It's almost impossible to figure out who owes whom how much if everyone buys stuff out of pocket and then needs to be reimbursed. They should be reimbursed from the kitty immediately -- or carry the kitty around so you can buy directly from it.

5. You also need to decide how to pay in restaurants. Just divide the bill 8 ways? Or spend 15 minutes at the end of the meal figuring out how much each person should pay according to their order? (Joe had three drinks and Sue only had one, but Sue ate dessert and Joe did not. Do you just assume it will
even out at the end, or do you itemize each person's payments?)

As you can see, these financial arrangements can get complicated, and can end up with hard feelings if someone feels put upon.

Mimar

How are you going to handle hotel rooms? Everybody makes their own reservations? One person reserves 4 rooms? Lots of potential problems there. And smaller hotels might not have 4 rooms available for your dates.