Talk About Lax Security

Old Sep 13th, 2001, 01:49 PM
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Talk About Lax Security

Earlier this year we flew on an Air France flight in Europe. The cockpit door was open almost the whole flight. I sat in my seat in coach and looked out the cockpit window the whole time it was open. Some passengers were even allowed to enter and talk to the pilots.
It has just been luck on these flights that something hasn't happened before.
Old Sep 13th, 2001, 03:21 PM
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I had no idea security could be so relaxed, what can we as passengers and ticket holders do about it.
We should demand safety procedures!
Old Sep 13th, 2001, 11:58 PM
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Smaller planes (like the ones used for flights within Europe) USUALLY aren't hijacked -- not enough press I guess. However I also noticed on several small planes in the US that the cockpit door was opened for take off and landing.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 01:30 AM
Steve James
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A BBC report said that cockpit doors are rarely 'locked' on internal flights in the USA!! Is this really true??
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 01:38 AM
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Is this really lax? Is the problem not at the gate.

I've been into the cockpit and on longer flights it's common to invite interested parties into the cockpit.

I wouldn't see that as a major issue, however.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 01:54 AM
Steve James
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Hello Sheila,

You're right of course. The problem is at the gate, - especially if, as was also reported, 'security staff' on internal flights are often trainees on the minimum wage.

But it should certainly be an issue from now on, IMO. If the cockpit doors are left open/unlocked, it's an open invitation ...


(P.S. I'm glad to see you've had your 3 coffees this morning!)
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 02:32 AM
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I was on a plane (intra-Europe flight)on the 12th of September (so AFTER the attacks) and the cockpit door was still open during the whole flight. Also, there was no (visible) extra security and the crew acted as if it was a normal day. At first, I found this strange, but I then realised that flying has probably never been more secure than right after the attacks. The problem with terrorists is that they are one step ahead of us. They have used this weapon, next time they will use another one. Gas in a metro system somewhere? Blowing up a few bridges? Introducing billions of fake euros to the market on January 1? I just hope our secret service and law enforcement agencies are busy with identifying possible risks and infiltrating terrorist groups. The truth is, it is impossible to have sufficient "normal" security to guarantee safety. Look at what happens in Israel: they check everything and have soldiers on every corner, and still they have attacks.
We also have to look much more at the reasons why some idiots become violent terrorists. Learn much more about the enemy.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 09:51 AM
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I don't think they'll be doing that any more, probably, and while better security at the gate would be good, I don't think better cockpit security it unnecessary. I have experienced something similar (worse IMO) on a large US jet flying within the US--the pilot actually came out of the cockpit and walked around the cabin talking to people!!!!! Now I don't know much about flying (I picture some puppet strings in the sky) but this made me nervous, even though I'm sure either the co-pilot or automatic pilot was doing the flying. However, having the pilot walk down the aisles, etc, is not very good security, either.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 09:59 AM
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I think we, as the public using this public transportation should be much more vocal and alarmed at the airlines.

If another company was so complacent with our welfare as the buying public, we would be picketing, etc. We are the ones that let them get away with being lax with our safety. We should demand better safety features in whatever form.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 10:21 AM
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I suspect that there will be no more open cockpit doors and the "invitations" to visit may be very limited.
Security doesn't just begin at the gate. All manner of airline personnel have free access to aircraft. Groomers, mechanics etc. could easily place weapons aboard .. and there are lots of hiding places in a large aircraft. I know each employee is supposed to go through an extensive security check, but based on the ease by which drugs are secreted and transported via commercial flights, one has to wonder how thorough these checks really are.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 10:23 AM
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In the last few years I have travelled extensively in Europe and North America.

Security checks *are* very different in those regions.

I have experienced the laxest checks in the southwest USA. I remember lots of people lugging along three or four carry-ons, sending them through the x-ray machines while the security staff were talking anong themselves and hardly looking at the screen.

The most stringent security controls I met were in Scandinavia. They took me aside, asked me to open my carry on, had me remove a knife with a 2" blade, *put it in a box and checked it*. Actually, it was thoughtless of me to put that knife into my carry-on, and their thoroughness really impressed me.

Also my home airport had me send a bag twice through the x-ray machine, just to be sure my hairdryer was a hairdryer (I took it out and showed it to them before they could ask for a third run).

I think that security should be enforced as shown by these Scandinavian airports. That way, there would be no need to discuss open cockpit doors. By the way: these doors are so flimsy, that a good kick has them opened, even when locked.

Sjoerd: excellent point you are making.

Old Sep 14th, 2001, 10:30 AM
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Sjoerd, Re: 'The truth is, it is impossible to have sufficient "normal" security to guarantee safety.'

Unfortunately, all too true. Your point about Israel is a good one; even they, for all their security, cannot prevent terrorist attacks (on the ground at least...apparently they have been able to prevent airliner hijackings.) Every terrorism expert I've seen the past few days has said that, as long as someone is willing to commmit suicide in an attack, it's very difficult to prevent it.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 11:37 AM
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Yes, and it is also impossible to stop a determined burglar. So why bother with security at all? Just leave your front door wide open.

No, you can't guarantee a terrorist hijack will never happen. But we don't have to make ourselves sitting ducks, do we?
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 11:44 AM
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I believe that the American public let the FAA and our local airports know in uncertain terms that we demand more safety and better security checks.

How many of us have listed responses on travel/talk these last few days stating all the lapses in security we have seen?

Do we just shrug and go ahead and board the airplane and talk about it later?
We have all lived to talk about it later, some haven't.
If we really demand higher standards, and if ticket sales back us up, I am sure they would respond.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 11:53 AM
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I agree, alot of us were quite vocal in the 1960's and 1970's about corporate
responsibilities. What has happened to us? We are like complacent lambs filing into the planes.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 12:06 PM
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I heard a suggestion on the radio this morning: ALL pilots go on strike until either the airlines or the government puts sky marshalls on every flight, everywhere.

Hmm... I like that idea.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 01:23 PM
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I think that is a good idea Holly.
Most of us fly as an option not as a necessity. If the airlines hurt enough in profits, something more will be done to protect us.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 02:05 PM
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At CDG in Paris, I was asked for my passport at every corner and although I pass through one "eye" test, anyone that looked like they were from the middle east was stopped and questioned. On thing you must remember about Air France, they are one of the few global airlines that have undercover guards on a lot of their flights. They have guns and if one of these guards was on that plane, he probably was looking into the cockpit along with you.
Old Sep 14th, 2001, 03:40 PM
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Sam, I would like to hope so. I would feel so much better with someone that is in charge of the passengers sitting with us. How much could a stew. do, and what could happen before the passengers
could rise to the occasion?
This isn't an innocent world and we need protection in the skies.
Old Sep 15th, 2001, 04:57 AM
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You want to talk about LAX security?

My mom is one of those people at the airport that scans your bags, is at the metal detector, or opens your suitcases, etc.
I called her last night to see if our airport was open and what changes have been made.
HAH!!! You won't believe it.
Yes, you have to check in at the ticket counter, yes, only passengers go to the gate, yes, some id, but not all luggage is being checked.
Only people checking in that cannot provide an address and phone number, will have their luggage checked.
Since all luggage is not being scanned at my airport, who is to say that only checking those that cannot provide and address are the ones with a bomb.
I am not worried about them having weapons, as they can't use them on board, but a bomb bothers me.
Those pilots that crashed into the towers all had addresses that they could have provided.
Why check luggage at all? If they are not checking everyone, then checking one doesn't help.

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