aussie 10 - In Switzerland many folks find 2nd class just hunky dory but there is always a difference - first class will have many more empty seats and as very few Swiss trains even take seat reservations this can be a factor - many trains are chockful in 2nd class certain times near large cities as they act as commuter trains that have rush hours.

Some specialty trains only have observation domed panoramic cars in first class and on lake boats only first class passengers can ride on the upper deck open-air seating parts.

Some trains are only first class - well not many but the Chocolate Train is - going from Lausanne to Gruyeres and Broc to visit the Nestle Chocolate factory there.

Most Swiss train rides are fairly short and in mountainous areas trains may be all one class or have very very little first class seating.

So there is always a significant difference between classes but in Switzerland is not as great as in most other countries, where also travel times tend to be longer.

If you can afford it go first class. Right now there is a sale on first class passes where you can get an extra day free but travel has to be in March and April I believe.

Well PalenQ now you are tempting the taste buds!

Chocolate train! I have googled it and now have to see how to work it into the itinerary. Husband is a chocoholic and I love cheese.
After much deliberation had thought that after the Bernina express to stay in Zurich and then catch a train to Thun to pick up a boat to Interlaken and then move on to Wengen from there. But now I am madly trying to see the best way to get to Montreux.

Is it worth the detour, it does sound like a great day trip and good value with the Swiss pass. Sadly the sale will not fit our plans. We will be in Switzerland in September.

Ahh now to get on to the train timetable sites and more researching. But I am loving the ideas and suggestions.
Thank you

But now I am madly trying to see the best way to get to Montreux>

Well the quickest route from Zurich would go via Bern and Laudsanne I think but an extra hour or so lets you take the Golden Pass scenic train there from Spiez (just south of Bern) - perhaps coming back west you could do that - from Montreux to Spiez/Interlaken is the course of the Golden Pass, one of Switzerland's most very popular iconic scenic trains.

We too are going to Switzerland for 10 nights in early September. After much research streamlining choices to one direction, we are focusing on the western half of the country. Comments on your plans:
1. If you are beginning the Switz portion from the Italian Lakes district, can you not originate from Lugano/Como taking the William Tell Express directly up to Lucerne? From there you can easily access Interlaken and the mtn. villages of the Bern Oberlander. We have chosen to stay 3 nts in Interlaken rather than the mtn. villages thinking that in imperfect weather we have more options, including the city of Bern. We might regret this decision, but...
2. Also from the William Tell, believe you can switch onto the Glacier Express which would bring you to Montreux (via Visp). From there you can head north on the Golden Pass bringing you into Interlaken or Lucerne and continue north into Germany. With limited time, do you really want to spend night in Zurich?
3. Montreux- In September the Chocolate Train only operates on Mon, Wed & Thurs. It is pricey at $100 pp but included in the Swiss Pass. However, you can take a local train up to Gruyere regardless and connect to Broc any day of wk. ( We will be in Montreux on a Monday, hurray!)
4. Train Class - We always travel in Europe on 2d class and our legs this trip will be 2 1/2 hrs max. 2d class has always exceeded our expectations. Our 8-day swiss pass is costing $730 for two. The flexipass or BernOberland Regional Pass would not work with our itinerary (Flexi 4 or 6 days might work for you). Of course even with a Swiss Pass or FlexiPass, the top mountain rides are only covered at 50% and 25% depending on destination. But with the trip from Lauterbrunnen up to the Jungfrau at $180 pp, our 8-day Swiss Pass was the most flexible and economical overall (we will have to purchase 28chf pp fare Zurich-Lucerne before activating our 8-day Swiss Pass upon lvg Lucerne).
5. We spent an hour at Swiss Tourist Ofc in NYC (living 30 miles west of Manhattan has its benefits); see www.sbb.ch or SwissTravelSystem.com for full train coverage & schedules. We will buy our SwissPass upon arrival at no add'l cost, one less thing to worry about now.
6. Our itinerary is arrv Zurich, train directly to Lucerne for 2 nts, 3 nts Interlaken, 2 nts Zermatt, 2 nts Montreux and quick overnight in Geneva from where we'll depart.

I think we're all going to LOVE Switzerland!! Good luck-

Thank you for your replies PalenQ and Aliced.

Well after Pals last post I did some more researching and reading and realised that I was not using our 8 day Swiss Pass to its best use.

I watched the 3 little videos on the Swiss site of the vast possibilities of the Swiss Pass. So

After staying in Bellagio we will train it to Tirano and catch the Bernina Express to Chur (Yes Aliced I did look at the William Tell train but we really wanted to do the Bernina Express, the highest rail trip in the world).

From Chur we will travel by train to either Zurich or Lucerne and stay overnight. The Bernina Epress does not get in to Chur until 6.30 so we will not want to train it too far. We would like to do a boat trip (using the pass) on either Lake Brienz or Lake Thun, finishing in Interlaken. From there we will spend 4 nights in Wengen.

After Wengen we will go via Spiez and pick up the Golden Pass train to Montreux,arriving lunchtime and stay overnight.
I think we will have to give the Chocolate train a miss.
We will then travel back up north heading to Germany and our next destination the Black Forest.

Points to consider:
- If we want to make the most of our 8 day pass I think we will have another day to use up. Does the 8 days start from the time of the first train trip?
- Where to add this day? Lucerne (although we have been there before many, many years ago) OR Berne OR somewhere else. I am open for suggestions.
- this is only a rough itinerary nothing booked yet, so lots of flexibility.

If you haven't already, you can check train schedules using the Swiss fed Rail site www.sbb.ch/en

You will notice there are several timings leaving Chur at or after 1830 in the evening that will get you to Luzern in about 2 hours; some go through Zurich; others require a change at Thalwil which is an easy change.

You may find Luzern to be somewhat more picturesque what with its wooden bridges and the setting right on the lake (of the four forest cantons).

I think you will not regret choosing the Bernina. It affords absolutely spectacular scenery.

Yes, 8 day Swiss Pass begins on 1st day chosen to validate, not necessarily on day purchased. More economical for us to pay outright Zurich-Lucerne leg and save the 8 days from Lucerne-Interlaken and right through our last day getting around Lk Geneva and to airport. ( Lastly, Bellagio was wonderful, there about 15 yrs ago at Hotel du Lac! )

- If we want to make the most of our 8 day pass I think we will have another day to use up. Does the 8 days start from the time of the first train trip?>

well to be clear it is a calendar day and not an 8-day period from the exact time you take the first train - not like a car rental would be - so yes as alcied says it starts using your first unlimited travel day the day you take you first train, after you validate the pass to start on that day - you can validate the pass ahead of time for convenience when buying the Zurich to Lucerne cheap ticket but be sure the clerk knows you want to activate it for starting the next day and not the day you are going to Lucerne.

> Where to add this day? Lucerne (although we have been there before many, many years ago) OR Berne OR somewhere else. I am open for suggestions

What are your interests? What kinds of things to you most want to see or experience on this extra day?

Thanks Aliced for sharing your trip itinerary and yes we are looking forward to Bellagio coming off our 24 hours flight.

PalenQ thanks for the clarification of the count of the 8 day pass.

kja not sure what to do on the extra day. Maybe add it to Lucerne? But we have been there, although many many years ago. Not sure whether it is worth adding an extra day down Lausanne way. We hope to get our mountain fix whilst in Wengen for 4 nights.

Really it is open to all options. Not a big fan of 1 night stays in places. But that said if it is worth moving on then we will do it. Is Berne worth a stop?

Maybe add it to Lucerne? -if you have not taken a lake boat ride around Lake Lucerne add a day here to do it perhaps - classic cruise is to the end of the fjord-like part of the lake to Fluelen or go to Vitznau and take the mountain train up to famed Mt Rigi - one of the most celebrated vista points in all of Switzerland - the Kulm, or summit, is not so high as many Alpine peaks but the lateral view over the rocky spine of central Switzerland to the west is spellbinding! Passes are valid in full on the lake boats.

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes a boat trip on Lake Lucerne does look nice.
Would the mountain trip up to Mt Rigi also be covered with the pass?

Would you consider taking a half-day very scenic trip up to Engleberg and then the ascent of Mt. Titlis? The pass will cover the rail journey but it only gives you a 50% discount on the three-stage ascent on the cableways.

You can see what is fully covered with a Swiss pass, and what is 50% (or 25%) on ths synoptic map:

http://www.swissrailways.com/downloa...tskarte_en.pdf

It shows the Mt. Rigi railways, as well as the cablecar from Rigi Kaltbad down to Weggis, as fully covered.

This makes for a great day: boat from Luzern to Vitznau, train up Rigi to the Kulm, (maybe have lunch?), train back down to Rigi Kaltbad, take a walk on one of sevaral nice trails there, for gorgous views over the lake, ride the cablecar down to Weggis, and take the boat back to Luzern.

In Wengen we love the Hotel Bären. It is more casual, less upscale than many of the Wengen hotels, but it is also less expensive. The restaurant is known for its food, which is fantastic, and the half-board option (dinner for 20 CHF) is one of the best deals around. The rooms are simply furnished but have all you need---including a balcony which is one of my "musts" in Switzerland.

Thanks again PalenQ, Dukey and Enzian for the great ideas and suggestions.

Well after much reading and studying of maps I think we have narrowed it down.
Thanks enzian for the map link it is very helpful and the Lucerne day itinerary.
So here goes:
Bernina Express to Lucerne 2 nights in Lucerne
4 nights in Wengen
1 night Montreux or would Lausanne be better?
Then train to Freiburg Germany.

I think that will take care of our 8 day Swiss Pass. Of course we will use the pass each day to the max and I am excited about all the various trains, boats, Gondolas etc. Such great hints and knowledge you all have provided

I will now have to look at accommodation

Bernina Express to Lucerne 2 nights in Lucerne>

Of course the Bernina Express doesn't go to Lucerne - to Chur at the most then regular trains - you could easily go via Zurich and backtrack to Lucerne or for a lovelier way there hop on at Pfaffikion SZ a sideline railway that rolls thru bucolic countryside to Lucerne - no need to change in the hectic Zurich HB.

Yes PalenQ I will look into the other way to get to Lucerne

One more question. Should we buy our pass well ahead of time. Can we just purchase it from the Swiss rail site. Is it correct that we will need to book seats ahead of time on the Bernina Express. Do we need to have purchased the Swiss Pass before purchasing the seat reservations?

Also reserving seats on the Golden Pass train, did I read somewhere that the seats right up front are best? When reserving seats can we pick them ourselves?

Would love to have a Swiss travel office here in Oz to ask all these questions.

Thank you for your help

You can make your Bernina Express reservations on their website:

http://www.rhb.ch/Bernina-Express.2188.0.html?&L=4

It does not appear that you need your Swiss Pass in hand to make the seat reservation. Note that there are many regional trains running on this route that do not require a seat reservation; but if you want the special Bernina Express train then reservations (9 CHF each) are a good idea.

Since you will be entering Switzerland from Tirano, you will need to either buy yor pass online in advance and have it shipped to you, or ascertain for sure that you can buy it in Italy. I could not find the informatin on sales outlets in Italy on the Swiss Travel System website, but maybe someone else knows where to look.

I could not find the informatin on sales outlets in Italy on the Swiss Travel System website, but maybe someone else knows where to look>

there is Swiss train station in Torino, Italy, right opposite the Italian station - it is not a SBB Swiss Federal Railways station so not sure they sell Swiss Passes though suspect they do.

A quick check of comparison of pass prices for passes bought in the U S and in Switzerland shows that at least on the one I checked - the popular 3-day Swiss Saver Flexipass - that pass could cost $250 p.p. if bought in the U S and 260 CH francs if bought in Switzerland - using $1.10 to the CHF means that pass in Switzerland would cost 260 x 1.10 = $286 plus whatever foreign transaction fee your c card - often 3% or another $8.50 or about $295 total vs $260 if bought in states - most agents have no mailing fee on Swiss Passes I think - for two folks the savings is significant - $70 or so total - I will have to re-check that I guess as it seems too significant. Will report back later.

You do NOT need to backtrack from Chur to Luzern through Zurich..DO NOT DO THIS!

you can check the schedules at www.sbb.ch/en

you can change in Thalwil and as I said earlier that is an easy change.

I often stay in Lausanne BUT for your purposes I would recommend staying in Montreux.

Here is a "spectacular scenery" possibility if you are in Montreux long enough. Take the trip by rail up to Rochers de Naye. Your pass will get you a discount. Believe me, this is worth the time and effort.