bvlenci

I had a lot of trouble with vowels when I lived in the Netherlands. The first syllable of the town of Leiden seemed to be halfway between the English "lied" (long I sound) and "laid". I would pronounce it "LIED en", and people would give me a blank look and then say, to my ears, "Oh, you mean LAID en". So the next time I'd try to shade it more towards LAID, and they'd say, "Oh, you mean LIED en".

I should have just said, "That town where Rembrandt was born."

sandralist

>>>"Then one day, I was angry at my husband, and giving him a good telling off, and those "rr"s just rrrolled rrright off my tongue. I've never had a problem since. "<<<

In the film The King's Speech, the badly stuttering future king loses his stutter when he is instructed to yell angry obsencities at the top of his lungs. So socially acquired inhibitions and pressures to always "behave" create an obstacle to speaking another language. It might be one reason why young children learn more quickly, since they're still largely unaware of people's opinions of their behavior, and people generally tolerate very small children being uninhibited. That of course quickly changes as they get older, and by the time they get to be teenagers, they are barely given space to speak their minds without being pounced on by censorious and disapproving adults. (I'm speaking of America mainly.)

ssander

sandralist...

You are correct that one thing that makes adults harder to teach a language is their inhibitions...particularly their reluctance to sound bad. (Though, obviously, the developmental factors that make it easy for kids to learn language play the most important role.)

Kids--especially young kids--are used to making mistakes, so it doesn't bother them as much to take risks. When in a foreign country, many adults are just plain afraid to sound ridiculous...the most important thing is to try, try, try! It is really worth it.


ssander

jenniferSt

Well of course. Italian is much easier to learn than french. And i believe between English and Italian and a bit of basic french, and of course a useful app - you'll manage just fine.

annhig

Annhig, can't you get angry at your own husband?>>

yes, of course, bvl, but not in Italian! [well, I could, but it probably wouldn't have the desired effect]

<<Well of course. Italian is much easier to learn than french>>.

really, jenniferSt? I've studied italian more than I have french, but IME of learning a number of languages, once you get to a certain stage, how well you progress has got far less to do with the innate difficulty [or otherwise] of learning the language, but much more to do with aptitude, perseverance, the amount you can practice, how much exposure you get to it, etc. etc. To say that one language is much easier to learn than another is a gross over-simplification.

ssander

I think what jenniferST means is that <em>all other things being equal</em> (perseverance, practice, exposure, etc.) Italian is easier than French.

Grammatically, one is probably not easier than the other.

From a reading/pronunciation standpoint, Italian (like Spanish) is much more consistent. With few exceptions, the five vowels are pretty much always pronounced the same...ditto the consonants and consonant pairs (zz, for instance). Once you master the hard and soft C and G rules, you pretty much have it made.

I know I am disregarding a lot of the subtleties of the vowels...I'm talking about being understood, understanding others, and reading.

ssander

StCirq

I agree. Italian pronounciation is far easier than French. It's easy, logical, and pretty much consistent. French is a minefield. First, you have to master the "r" and the "u" and then you have to master things like Limeuil and chevrefeuille. Not easy for an American palate. And then there are all those place names that are either Gallo-Roman or Viking that end in "c," some of which get pronounced and some of which don't. It can be maddening. Italian, on the other hand, is pretty regular and predictable. For that reason alone, I find Italian to be a much simpler language than French, but I'm glad my second language was French because I've got most of its difficulties conquered by now.

I even understood this afternoon when our garagiste, on the phone to a supplier, said "T'a l'heure, bises."

quokka

I agree 100% on the pronunciation being so much easier. In French they write ten letters and pronounce five sounds, and everything sounds the same... this language will never go into my head, while I am quite good in Italian. The only real minefield in Italian is, which syllable is to be stressed. There are some unexpected surprises, especially when it comes to the names of places, for example MOdena.
The grammar of Italian and French is pretty similar and proves just as many problems in either language. Basic Italian is quite easy but if you want to proceed further, then the troubles start.

In order to encourage you, let me tell you that it took me 20 years to learn the "r". Then, all of a sudden, it worked. So don't give up, friends!
I think I owe this to the Polish language, which I started two years ago. Due to lucky circumstances I once got a private lesson on pronunciation from a Polish linguist (on board an Italian regional train, in fact, it was pretty embarrassing, LOL). This guy was able to explain what exactly the tongue has to do to form the different sounds - so I can now do the difference between cz and ci, z with dot and z with accent, sz and si... and also the r. Woohoo!

annhig

I think what jenniferST means is that all other things being equal (perseverance, practice, exposure, etc.) Italian is easier than French.>>

not what she said.

<<In order to encourage you, let me tell you that it took me 20 years to learn the "r". Then, all of a sudden, it worked. So don't give up, friends!>>

you mean I've got to take up Polish in order to learn how to pronounce an italian R properly?

mmm- not likely to happen. In any event, I know WHAT I'm supposed to do, the problem is that my tongue can't do it!

Whathello

I thought I understood English when asked in Manchester if I wanted to drink a glass of water.

The guy looked at me, cocked his head and said 'o' 'er'.

Dutch has a very difficult 'g' and 'r' is not that easy sometimes.