Myer

Thanks to those who?ve commented thus far. Particularly Maribel for all her help. She's amazing.

After being forced to cancel two previous Spain trips we are attempting to resurrect the trip.

In general, we prefer to wander around cities and towns seeing the sights. We walk a lot. While we do visit museums this is not really a priority or necessity. We find smaller (even home-based) museums (such as the Frick Collection in New York) less crowded and quite enjoyable.

Madrid
Arrive Friday May 28th approximately 11:30AM. Hotel - Carlos V (4 nights).

Decisions.
Daytrip. Since we?ll go to the Rastro on Sunday, that leaves only Saturday and Monday for a daytrip. I?m leaning slightly toward Toledo as the first choice (History and shorter train ride I believe). Second choice is Segovia with possibly a visit to La Granja. Normally we wouldn?t want to take a daytrip the day after arriving but Monday has issues with closings both in Toledo and Segovia (La Granja). Then again, if we take the daytrip on Monday, go to Segovia and pass on La Granja, we could add Saturday as a possible Prado visit and avoid crowds in Segovia. Comments?

Prado. Since we probably won?t want to visit a museum the day we arrive, Sunday afternoon is the only possibility. If the line to get in is too long, we?ll pass. But being open until 7PM we may make it.

Day 1. Choices are the Prado, Royal Palace or just take a walking tour (possibly Maribel?s) through Old Madrid. I suspect the walk will win.

Day 2 - Saturday. Most likely a daytrip. If train to Toledo is a hassle due to construction or too many sights are closed for renovation we?ll shift to Segovia and La Granja.

Day 3 ? Sunday. Rastro in the morning, Retiro park in the afternoon, walk around the Museum area and then depending upon the lines, the Prado late afternoon early evening (I believe it?s open until 7PM)

Day 4 ? Monday. The Palace, wandering and possibly some shopping.

Seville
Take the AVE Tuesday morning arriving around noon (plus or minus 30 minutes). Casas de la Juderia (5 nights). Two day trips to Cordoba and Carmona. If 2 ? days plus daytrip evenings isn?t enough for Seville, we could pass on Carmona and stay in Seville.

Day 5 ? 9. Seville and daytrips.

Granada
Decision. Thought of leaving Seville late afternoon on Sat but when it?s on you mind that you have to catch a train, you really don?t enjoy that day. Thought of taking a 9 or 10AM bus, but travel sickness is an issue and we decided to be safe. Train to Granada arriving approximately 3PM (7AM train was not considered).

Day 10 ? Sun. Walk around the Albaicin late afternoon and evening.

Day 11 ? Monday. The Alhambra. If time permits an hour or so around the central area of the city.
Leave by 5PM for a 6:55 plane to Barcelona.

Barcelona.
Decision.
Have reservations in 2 hotels in about the same location and price range. H10 Gravina and H10 Placa Catalunya. Leaning toward Catalunya but haven?t decided yet. Help!!!

Days 12-14 Barcelona.

Return Friday June 11th.

Myer

Love the question marks.

Obviously that wasn't me but the text conversion from one system to another.

Maribel

Hi Myer,
Guess who?
Just I few final thoughts then I'll leave it to others.

If you love the Frick (as I do), you'd
probably really enjoy the Thyssen, a magnificent former private (of the late Baron Heinrich Thyssen) collection-like a short trip through the history of Western Art, very doable in a couple of hrs., a comfortable museum to visit (with very nifty gift shop and handy cafe), well lighted, in beautiful renovated palace, works in chronological order (start at the top floor and work your way down).

Since the Prado is open now til 7 on Sunday, you can leave it til Sun. afternoon. Just a note that you won't find anything of *real* value these days at the Rastro flea market. It's mostly junk (lots of sixties tie die and stuff) these days and please watch
your wallet when making your way through the big crowds. But if you are flea market fans, you may enjoy surveying the scene. What I most enjoy is the apres Rastro/pre tapas lunch scene in the very typical, ancient taverns in the area, like the Taberna de Antonio Sanchez where everyone hangs out, starting around 1.

If you choose Toledo on Saturday, remember that you may have limited train service, depending on how the Madrid-Toledo AVE construction is coming along. Currently there's a departure at 8:30, which would get you into Toledo at 10, just when the monuments open. Then you could return
at 4:05.


About Segovia for Sat. or Mon.
There is limited bus transportation from Segovia to La Granja and it's the same bus co., La Sepulvedana, that takes you from Madrid to Segovia, so it would make more sense to bus to Segovia. The bus station is much closer (a nice walk really) to the acueduct than the train station. Also, mr.go has reported that the bus trip now only takes an hr. since they've finished the new motorway to Segovia. The 8:01 train doesn't arrive in Segovia until 10:05. Info on patriomonionacional.es indicates that La Granja should be back open in March with a collection of fountains running on Saturdays, but I'd check the web site before you leave, just to make sure. There is an obligatory under 1 hr. bilingual guided tour.
So, Madrid-Segovia-La Granja makes for a long day, particularly on the first day after arrival!
But, if you travel to Segovia on Mon. La Granja will be closed.
You'll find fewer crowds in Segovia than in Toledo always.

For Day 1, I'd just take an Old Madrid walking tour on your own. You'll pass by the enormous Royal Palace on the Plaza del Oriente, and if you have the energy, you can visit it either with a guided tour or you can wander through on your own (on a small # of rooms are open to visits)-or just save it til Mon.

The day trip from Seville to Carmona can only be by bus-no train. The bus co. is Casal and busses leave from the Prado de San Sebastian station. But you may be so enchanted with wandering around Seville that you'll want to stay put except for the short 40 min,. AVE trip up to Cordoba.

As you know, I haven't seen the H10's new Barcelona property, the Plaza Catalunya, but since it's right on the square, the location would be handier (require less walking) than the H10 Granvina.

Your plans have really come together nicely. Now, I'll keep my fingers crossed that THIS time, your trip comes to fruition. It just has to!

kaudrey

Myer - your trip planning is coming in so handy for me! With Maribel answering my one post (with a bunch of questions) and reading the answers to your questions, I have my trip almost all figured out!

And, I am going in February, so hopefully my trip report may help you a little upon my return. We have pretty similar trips planned. Mine goes like this:

Madrid: 2/7 to 2/11: 4 nights. Madrid Saturday 2/7; day trip to Toledo by bus on Sunday (both the Cathedral and Alcazar seem to be open Sunday - I hope!), Day trip to Segovia by bus on Monday (since things are open there on Monday), and tour Madrid on Tuesday before heading south.

Wed - 2/11-Madrid to Cordoba (AVE train) spend day in Cordoba. AVE train to Sevilla. 3 nights in Sevilla.

Sat 2/14 Rent car, tour pueblos blancos, 2 nights in Ronda.

Monday 2/16 Drive to Granada, drop off rental car, see Albacin.

2/17 - Alhambra, then in the evening fly to Barcelona. I'm taking that 6:55 flight also.

2/17 to 2/21. 4 nights in Barcelona, with a daytrip to Monserrat, before flying home Saturday.

With less than 2 months to go, I am excited already!

Karen

Chad_Ledger

Hi Myer,

If I had to choose between the two, I'd suggest Toledo over Segovia. Toledo is more crowded, and the aqueduct in Segovia is amazing, but all in all we enjoyed Toledo much more.

Even if you aren't a fan of big museums, the Prado really is a must. Just concentrate on a couple of painters (maybe the Spanish Big Three - El Greco, Velazquez, and Goya). Then only visit the rooms of the museum that feature those painters. Personally, I'd rather see part of the Prado than the Thyssen.

Like Maribel, we enjoy Seville so much that we haven't taken day trips out of the city. Be sure to have tapas on the patio at Modesto.

When we travelled from Seville to Granada, we rented a car and spent one night in Ronda. It was great. Ronda was amazing, and by staying the night, we could enjoy the calm after the tour buses left. Also, we really enjoyed visiting a couple of smaller white towns along the way. It's something you might want to consider.

We spent four nights at the Placa Catalunya in July 2002. The hotel is nice, very clean. The staff was very friendly and professional. The location on the Plaza is wonderful. It is very central to everything. The only complaint was that the room was very small. We would stay there again, though. Also, despite the mixed reviews here, don't miss the seafood platter at Botafumeiro.

mr_go

Sounds a lot like my recent trip, Myer. If you haven't read my trip report yet, feel free to search the site...it's here somewhere.

Both Segovia and Toledo are easily, comfortably reachable by bus. Whichever one you go to on Saturday is probably going to be crowded with tourists.

If you do make it to Segovia, and the weather permits, please be sure to walk the beautiful wooded path that meanders below the Alcazar. Very nice.

In Toledo, be sure to give ample time and attention to the interior of the cathedral. Pretty darn gorgeous.

Enjoy your stay at the Carlos V...especially the rich, delicious coffee!

Myer

Thanks for the comments so far.

*** Maribel,

I don?t expect to find anything of real value at the flea market. We went to the flea market in London last year and my daughter mentioned that the one in Madrid was fun. So my wife mentioned that she wouldn?t mind doing that.

Yes, we have discussed that we?ll have to improve our security measures. We have not been careful enough (although we?ve never had a problem).

Since we will still be in May , how bad will the crowds be in Toledo? Also, if we buy a train ticket in advance can you also buy a seat reservation? I think it?s a 2nd class train. What would the down-side be of limited service if we have a pre-purchased ticket?

To Toledo I can see us taking the 10:14 train. If the Renfe.com site is correct the train arrives at 11:44. I thought it was just over an hour. Also, the site indicates from Madrid to Segovia at 2 hours. Are these times correct?

Depending how we do we could either return on the 16:05 or 18:42 train.

I do notice dumb things. Why is the price different going from returning?

Regarding the choice of which one. Part of the choice will be determined by what is open or closed. I think you mentioned in a previous post that several sights are closed (I think for renovations).


I?m trying to get a feel for scale. How far is it from Sol to the Palace in one direction and the Prado in the other?

Also, in Barcelona, how far is the airport shuttle drop-off to the H10 Placa Catalunta hotel?

*** Chad,

I think you're the first person responding (other posts as well) who prefers Toledo to Segovia. What was so much better in Toledo?

Driving through the mountains by car really isn't an option.

I'll take the H10 Catalunya comments as a positive. Great!!!

You mention two places; Seville 'Be sure to have tapas on the patio at Modesto.'
Barcelona 'don't miss the seafood platter at Botafumeiro.'
Where are they?

The bus from Madrid to Segovia seems to be much faster than the train. How smooth a ride is it and how comfortable is the bus (A/C, etc)?

*** Mr_Go

I finally found your report. I?ll read it carefully.

While I don?t drink coffee my wife does. I?m sure she?ll enjoy it.

If you were selecting one of Toledo or Segovia, which and why?

Again, thanks to all.

hax

Hi all and especially Maribel--I see you are back! I am also going to Spain (Barcelona and Mallorca) for the first time this spring, and would appreciate your advice.

My dilemma is that we are traveling with two young teen girls, and want to be in a suite or at least adjoining rooms (with door). Many of the boutique type hotels we prefer do not seem to have adjoining rooms or suites, and the suites in the large hotels like the Majestic or Claris are unbelievably expensive--like 575 euro and up a night!

I had been considering: the AC Diplomat, the America and the Condes de Barcelona (all based on Maribel's reco--I agree, she is amazing!), plus the H10 Plaza Catalunya, the Hispanos Siete Suiza, (suites hotel next to the Sagrada Familia), and the Citadines (apartment hotel on the Rambla).

In my heart I know my girls (and my husband and I) would probably be happiest in the Eixample--for shopping, safety, restaurants, closeness to all the sites and the bus.
BUT-- The AC Diplomat is sold out. The America has rooms, but not with adjoining doors (I called). The Condes is sold out on most hotel sites and no way to request a "family room", suite or adjoining room--may have to call them as well. The H10 Catalunya only appears to have doubles.

The Hispanos Siete Suiza looks great and has good feedback on other sites but none on Fodors. Two bedrooms, two baths, a sitting room and breakfast included for 240 Euro a night. I have a reservation here but am wondering if I will feel off in the boonies at dinner time. (Sagrada Familia area) Will we have to take a metro everywhere--is it safe at night? (BTW, I found this hotel in the Time Out guidebook--they gave it a special sidebar because all of its profits go to cancer research).

The Citadines, also suites, is not as spiffy looking and is on the Rambla, It's convenient, and I know some Fodorites seem to like it. But I am afraid the rambla will be too noisy and not safe enough with two teenybopper daughters.

Your help and advice please! Adjoining rooms or happening area? Convenience or peace of mind? Quiet or TOO quiet? Thank you!!

Maribel

Hi Myer,
First your questions:
In May in Toledo, you will run into bus loads of day trippers from Madrid (several companies run canned excursions there), but it won't be like the crowds at the Alhambra in July-Aug.
I would do the cathedral first. One buys tickets to visit the sacristry and treasury at the Museum/Musei gift shop across the street and you can also rent an audio guide there. James Michener's Iberia has a wonderful description of the magnificent interior of the Toledo cathedral which last time I took with me to read while wandering around. After the cathedral, I'd head to the Church of Santo Tome to see El Greco's masterpiece, "The Buriel of the Count Orgaz", but if you run into a bus tour group there, you'll have to wait a bit to get up to the front of the very small room to view it properly. Then I'd move on to the House/Museum of El Greco. This takes very little time (not his actual house, just a noble home of the period), as other than a copy of the View of Toledo (original is part of the current El Greco exhibit at the Met which moves on to London's National Gallery in Feb.), there are no other "great masterpieces" there, just some portraits of Toledo noblemen. Also peek in at the tiny Santa Maria la Blanca synagogue. The other synagogue, El Transito and its Sephardic Museum, unfortunately are still closed for renovation with no date set for the reopening. The Alcazar's military museum is also closed. The Monastery of San Juan de los Reyes is worthy of a visit, but if you have limited time, I'd skip it and go instead to the small gem, the Museum of Santa Cruz, which displays a dozen El Grecos plus Flemish tapestries. It's housed in a former Renaissance hospital, has beautiful intricately carved "artesonado" ceilings and is actually my favorite Toledo museum.

When you buy your RENFE tickets in advance, you'll be given an assigned seats. Train and bus seats are assigned. Those www.renfe.es times should be correct, but check right before you leave as they may add more trains by late May. Since you'll need to taxi from station to the center of Toledo, you won't begin your touring until noon, so you'll probably need to take the 6:42 p.m. train back to Madrid, arriving at 8:11. Toledo monuments close up tight during siesta, EXCEPT for the lovely Museum of Santa Cruz.

Yes, it does take a full 2 hrs. to Segovia by train. That's why I always recommend the bus (but I know you have car sickness issues, but it's a non-stop and a very smooth ride-again, assigned seats, buy your ticket at ticket window before getting on) which takes just around an hr. now.

About pricing: When you purchase your r.t. Madrid-Toledo tickets you get a 20% discount. Pricing of trains is different because of the times of day when they run. "Peak" trains are more expensive. There's a non-peak 1 p.m. AVE Madrid-Seville, for example, which costs 7 euros less than the other AVEs.

The walk from Sol to the Royal Palace is easy, about 10 blocks. In the opposite direction, from Sol to the Prado is a tad longer, about 11-12, crossing the wide Paseo del Prado boulevard.

In Seville, "Modesto", a lively, always crowded and mostly locals' tapas bar (seafood) located just steps away from your hotel., "Botafumeiro" is widely considered the best formal seafood restaurant in Barcelona and is located on Gran de Gracia 81 in the Gracia section of the city, north of the Diagonal (taxi). www.botafumeiro.es

The Aerobus shuttle service from the BCN airport takes you directly to the Placa de Catalunya (end of the line) and deposits you in front of El Corte Ingles dept. store-address P de C #14. You should be able to walk from there to the H10 Placa de Catalunya hotel at #7.

Hope this helps.

hax,
I'll be back to try to answer your questions shortly.

Anton

Myer
in October we spent 4 nights in Madrid, 1 in Segovia, a side trip to Toledo, and 4 in Barcelona.

We were disappointed in never getting in the Royal Palace. We went by twice, but both times there were official events taking place. They would reopen in the afternoon, but by then we were someplace else. If open I would go in and not take a chance.

The day trip to Toledo was by train, but the last leg was by bus because of the construction, making the trip longer than we expected. There were no taxis available at the Toledo train station and there was no way of knowing, at least to us, when the local bus was coming so we walked. It does take a while to walk and by the time we were in the city we had spent at least a couple hours or so getting there from madrid. The cathedral was wonderful, but Santo Tome was closed as was the El Greco house. When we arrived at Toledo we wished we had arranged to spend the night: by the end of the day we were glad we hadn't.
The train was full by the way.

Segovia was much easier to navigate. From the bus station it is an easy walk to the aqueduct and the other sights. We were in Segovia over 24 hours and could have spent more time. The Cathedral was having a special exhibit and on weekends the line was long, almost around the plaza. We had gone the evening before when the lines were shorter. The exhibit was a bit on the gloomy side, lots of curcifixes, but we found it interesting. And of course the Alcazar is a must see.

We tried to follow Maribel's walk in old Madrid right after we arrived and were a little disoriented and got lost. Had a great time ambling around anyway.

Have a wonderful time. We did.

Maribel

hax,
As you know, my favorite place to stay in Bcn is the Eixample because of the safety, pleasant, upscale surroundings, the beautiful Modernista architecture, great shopping, lots of terrific dining venues, ease of catching the Aerobus and the Bus Turistic, walkability to the Ramblas (but far away enough from some of the tawdriness and the pickpockets) and also to the Gothic Quarter, no need for extra viligance, etc.
So I would definitely call the Condes de Barcelona. Its location right on the Passeig de Gracia is terrific. Sorry the AC Diplomatic is full because it's another great upmarket choice. Have you considered the new Hotel Berna in the Eixample on Roger de Lluria?
See it at www.travel-in-barcelona.com
Or the less expensive sisters of the Claris, the other 2 Derby hotels, 3 star Astoria and the fancier 3 star Balmes, also in the Eixample?
www.derbyhotels.es

I just looked at the apartments at
www.hispanos7suiza.com I had seen them mentioned in an article in the Guardian regarding new Spanish hip, designer boutique hotels, but I've yet to read a user review. And I can't find a picture of the actually suites themselves, just the lobby, entrance and bar. The trouble with the location is that you'll need to take the metro everywhere, and the Barcelona metro is considerably less convenient for the sights than the bus. The very most convenient way to reach all the sights quickly and easily is to take the Bus Turistic from the Placa de Catalunya.
That area is middle class residential.
I'm personally really all that fond of the Sagrada Familia location.

So again, I would call the C de B, check the Berna, Astoria and Balmes too for adjoining rooms. The ultra hip, minimalist, high tech Hotel Passeig de Gracia's doubles are rather expensive, but you can see it too on
www.travel-in-barcelona.com

Chad_Ledger

Hi Myer,

Toledo v Segovia is a matter of preference. Both have their advantages. Toledo is larger and I think its setting (surrounded on three sides by the river) is more impressive. The itinerary that Maribel outlines is a winner.

I'd also recommend catching a cab to get a view of the city from the other side of the river. If you can time this to correspond to sunset it is amazing.

Maribel gave you the 411 on the locations of Botafumeiro and Modesto, so no need to repeat that. Both are also reviewed in the restaurant section of this web site.

The bus to Segovia was comfortable. The ride when we took it was a bit winding, but from what M says, the new road probably smooths it a bit. The bus did get more cramped than the train to Toledo, though.

cova

Hi Maribel and Myer,

regarding the Sephardic Museum in Toledo, it was reopened around a month ago. They have also opened a Toledo Interpretation Center, but I lost the address The people at the tourist office should know about it.

I like more Segovia than Toledo, maybe because Toledo is much, much more foreign tourist oriented, and those swords ... The exhibition Anton mentioned was "Las Edades del Hombre". The last one will be held next year in the Avila cathedral. This year it was based on the Passion and Resurrection of Jesucrist, and I found it a bit weaker that other exhibitions I have seen. I am particularly fond of the Palencia one ...

Rgds, Cova

Maribel

Thanks for the update Cova!
The Toledo city gov't site doesn't actualize its info very well-indicated the last time I checked that it was still closed and the Museo Sefardi web site (www.museosefardi.net) still indicates it's closed! It's great to know that it's finally reopened!

Surovy

1. Madrid is boring. Don't plan to spend much time there. Even the locals think that the Prado is dull and prefer the other museims.

2. Toledo is far better than Segovia. Toledo is a don't miss.

3. Don't go straight to Seville and then double back to Cordoba. Just get off the AVE in Cordoba, and check your bags. Look around Then get back on later in the day and go to Seville.

4. Carmona is not worth a day trip. Ronda would be far better (but further).

5. Don't even think about Barcelona unless you plan to fly. It just doesn't fit on a Castile-Analusia interary.

cova

Hi Maribel,
you are right about the Toledo websites. It's a bit difficult to get updated information from them. One of the best ones I have found (but only in spanish) is www.zocodover.com, but it can come handy in order to preprint the Toledo map and get used to the different places.

Rgds, Cova

Myer

Surovy,

Since we get to Madrid noon on a Friday and plan to go to Toledo (or Segovia) on Saturday and stay in Madrid Sunday - Rastro (my wife liked Portobello in London just to walk around), are you suggesting we not stay in Madrid Monday and perhaps add Segovia then?

If we wander Old Madrid the day we get there and possibly get to the Royal Palace that day we could do the obligatory museum late Sunday afternoon after the Rastro and Retiro Park and free up Monday.

I don't think a bus to Ronda is an option for us. What didn't you like about Carmona? I read that it's close and is a nice town to wander in for a day. Lot's of nice homes, etc.

Could you suggest another day trip that is no more than an hour away that would be more interesting?

Since the current plan is to spend 2 1/2 days plus the evenings of any daytrips in Seville, we could always skip the second daytrip and stay in Seville if we feel there's more to see. I haven't gotten to the details of Seville (haven't read Maribel's note yet).

Seville-Cordoba. While it's tempting to stop in Cordoba on the way to Seville (more travel efficient), I don't like the idea of checking our luggage.

It's only 40 minutes from Seville and if we leave Madrid at 10:00 we wouldn't get to Cordoba until 11:42 where as if we left Seville at 10 we'd get to Cordoba at 10:42.

That just doesn't leave much time to wander the town and see the sights.

Yes, we are flying from Granada to Barcelona. 6:55PM flight.

hax

Maribel--Thanks for your reply.
(and sorry to Myer for hitching onto your thread--it started because of the H10 Catalunya!)

Maribel, did you mean you are really NOT all that fond of the Sagrada Familia location? ( I think that's what you meant.) The website to see their suites is www.hispanos7suiza.com.
They look very nice (though the cars in the lobby are a little strange.) I will call the other hotels--again, it is not just finding rooms, but
connecting rooms or a (affordable) suite because of the girls.
Thanks!

Surovy

"What didn't you like about Carmona?"

Nothing. I've even stayed there overnight. It was fine. There just isn't anything special or noteworthy enough to make it worth the trip. They do have the best tourist office for Anadlusia, however.

"Could you suggest another day trip that is no more than an hour away that would be more interesting?"

I would attempt Ronda if at all possible. Otherwise, maybe Jerez. You can try some sherry and see them train the Royal Equestrian horses. If you are there in the right day (Thurday?) you can see the actual show. One of the best Spain experiences. Sandeman Sherry tasting is next door to the arena and there is an interesting clock museum nearby.

"I don't like the idea of checking our luggage."

If you read thhis board, a lot of people check baggage at train stations. I'm not sure if any have had bad experiences, but you might check.

"That just doesn't leave much time to wander the town and see the sights."

I don't follow. Trains run frequently, so you reall have as much time as you want. I'm sure that we spent at least 6 hours there.

Myer

The responses are making me think a bit.

Presntly we arrive in Madrid Friday at noon and walk around Old Madrid, Saturday is a daytrip, Sunday el Rastro, Retiro and Prado, Monday Royal Palace, shopping, wandering and leave for Seville Tuesday AM.

I'm wondering if instead of leaving Madrid for Seville on a Tuesday morning, we change it to the evening and then have time for both Toledo (Saturday) and Segovia (Monday - we would skip La Granja) or if we're brave take a late train to Seville and do Segovia on Tuesday (with La Granja).

That way we would have 3 full days in Seville (plus a daytrip to Cordoba) and we would drop the second daytrip from Seville.

Any comments?