kimhe

A couple of recent Guardian articles putting the Greek crisis into perspective.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...suicide-greece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ildren-victims

Begging is not the issue for the "indignados" in Spain and Portugal either. The indignados movement started in Madrid on 15th of May last year, hence the 15-M phenomenon in Spanish politics/news the last year. It inspired many of the later Greek protest and protests around Europe and eventually in the US (Occupy Wall street). http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ement-activism

zeppole

ribierasacra,

I don't find anything out-of-the-blue about chapla's observatiion. There are various ways to phrase this, but the long years of Franco's dictatorship have forged certain attitudes about the utility of public protest in Spain -- both for those protesting and for those in authority, and even for those on the sidelines. Those attitudes are not the same in America, where a considerable effort has been made to insist on the futility of public protest. I don't think Franco's long shadow is quite yet out of the mix of Spain's politics. People can argue about the extent and where it is in play, but the history of Franco is a factor in the way people today are acting and reacting.

The history of Franco's government is more known to people in the US because Americans both openly fought against it, and covertly supported it. It is a part of American history in a way that Portugal's dictatorship was not -- and even absent that, Franco's government was so much more violent and fascist, it made itself more infamous.

clausar/kimhe

I also find bilboburger's attitude shameful, but I don't think he was calling protesters beggars but instead was saying that the economic downturm may mean that you will see more people begging at churches, markets, etc. I guess I must be alone, however, in not having a negative view of a beggar. Poor people are sometimes so desperate they beg, and while people want to blame addicts who beg for not having jobs, etc., people don't understand the reality of those kinds of mental diseases.

Anyway, I've nothing against begging and if Greeks making a fuss is showing other people how to get rid of these idiotic policies that are no solution to anything, one can only applaud the Greeks for their intelligence and courage.

bilboburgler

I'm feeling no shame (some surprise at remarks but hey why not) but Zeppole has understood (and explained) my point very well. I did not say protesters were beggers or beggers were protesters. I see no problem with beggers I just thought the OP should be made aware of what they will find.

The Indignados would more likely claim to have started back at the Anti-Nato demonstrations a couple of years ago when Obama flew in.

I actually feel furious about the incompetence of the Euro founders and the meanderings of German Economists due to the victors of WW1 forcing such problems on Germany (France, USA, UK, Italy and others by the way). Bringing the Euro to countries which have had undisciplined economic governments has had a terrible affect. I leave Greece's government for others to comment on as that is off topic here. Both Spain and Portugal are unusual as Portugal is generally identified within Europe as a tax shelter all of its own (too many of my friends have taken their dollars and fled to the Algarve), while Spain's federal structure is more than capable of ruining a Spanish PM's sleep. None of these issues will overtley affect the OP.

Zeppole well knows that I think the Greeks should leave the Euro asap.

Now we have dealt with the economics and the emotions is there anything else which will help the OP enjoy their holiday?

zeppole

bilbaoburger,

If you can, find a way to read Wolfgang Munchau's most recent piece in the Financial Times about exiting the euro, I sincerely think you would find it interesting You might be able to get a free trial subscription just to read the article, or maybe somebody has it on a blog somewhere. It is called "The Prize for European Political Illiteracy"

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/48d37...#axzz1rXWH6xT6

What is shameful about your first remarks and these subsequent remarks is your failure to note that the people who made a fuss and got bailed out were not the Greek people, but bankers who are not Greeks. What is also shamfeul is the you fail to acknowledge what the post-WW2 western powers did to Greece, Spain and Italy during the Cold War. If you don't this history, even more shame on you and your government for not teaching you.

I got the OP to read the news on the BBC, so my conscience is clear.

kimhe

<The Indignados would more likely claim to have started back at the Anti-Nato demonstrations a couple of years ago when Obama flew in.>

The Indignados movement is directly inspired by the now 94 years old French WWII resistance hero Stéphan Hessels pamphlet "Indignez vous!" from October 2010. Originally printed in some 6000 copies, it has now sold millions of copies world-wide:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-2174676.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Hessel

Aduchamp1

Franco died in 1975. Most of the protestors are under 37 years of age and are concerned about daily living and jobs. And while Franco and the Civil War is still engrained in the Spanish soul, in this case, they have nothing to do with one another.

The Portuguese and the Spanish were among the poorest European countries until the deaths of Franco and Salazar. And during the Spanish economic miracle of the 1980's, Spain tried to become more a diversified and integrated economy. Portugal is still far behind. Spain's GDP is $1.4 billion while Portugal's is $229 billion, smaller than Greece.

There have always been regions of Spain that had high unemployment including Galicia and Badajoz and other southern areas. With universal education, there is a larger educated class with few jobs. It is a matter of expectations without realization.

ribeirasacra

zeppole
You need to make yourself clear and explain <i>People can argue about the extent and where it is in play, but the history of Franco is a factor in the way people today are acting and reacting.</i>
As your views about the Spanish population are coming across as being just a bit "misted up."

Adu...the area with the highest unemployment is Andalusia.

zeppole

You'll have to explain what you mean by "misted up." (Just don't know what it means and I don't think I mentioned "the Spanish population.")

I'm somebody who thinks history counts for a lot in the actions of present day people. None of the young people marching today in America with hoods on their heads were alive during the civil rights movement, but they would not be doing what they are doing today without a consciousness of that history, and a consciousness of what the election of Obama was advertised to be and hasn't been. Please note I said consciousness. I am saying it is a conscious regard for both the history that they did not live through and one they have lived through.

(So I think Aduchamp is just plain wrong.)

I don't know if I can re-phrase my remark to be any clearer. The Rojoy government is both shaped by a history and burdened with a public perception of that history that they wish to bend in a new direction. On the part of the protesters in Spain there is a vigilance about democracy that is unmatched in most other parts of Europe. You can argue how much all this should be understood as having to do with length of time Franco ruled and how democracy regained its strength in Spain after the end of those years, but in my view it is a fact that this history is a wind that is helping to steer the direction in which the protesters behave and the how government reacts to protest, and whether one wants to say that wind is steady or just gusts or whether it is strong or weak is arguable. To say that wind isn't blowing at all isn't true in my view.

bilboburgler

zeppole, interesting article, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I think he confuses two things.

1) the EU is not the Euro
2) that politicians, having got us into this mess, are capable (even around laws, after all EU laws are only binding if the politicans want them to be) of finding a way to get out of the Euro without getting out of the EU.

As a final thought; with Russia making a complete cods of Syria there is a growing possibility that they might lose their Mediteranean port in northern Syria. If they do they will need another. The two obvious ones are northern Cyprus (not a great harbour but oil money can convert anything) or anywhere in Greece. If being in the EU proved to catastrophic would being in political union with Russia be so bad? (I think it would { too much death and corruption in the literature} but I'm not in charge).

ribeirasacra

zeppole
Your lost post certainly conforms you are misted up.
The idea that hooded protesters are only in Spain and only extend from the history related to Franco’s time hence the PP is totally obscured by something.

Do you realise that hooded protesters can be found all over the world?

clausar

What a great political analysis....
Greece will leave the Eurozone and will join a political union with Russia....
Thank you, i had the laugh of the day
Oh, and Northern Cyprus,which is 38% of the surface of Cyprus, is recognized only by Turkey.

zeppole

ribeirasacra,

My reference to "hooded protesters" was specifially about protests today in AMERICA (regarding the shooting death of Trayvon Martin). Maybe you haven't heard of these protests where you are, but please read my posts more carefully lest you appear to be the one whose vision is blocked!


bilbaoburger,

I think Munchau is correct in his reading of the EU treaty. The burden on people like you who want Greeks to quit using the euro or leave the EU entirely is to explain how this would be done legally.

Saying "I personally don't recognize the EU treaty" isn't a real-world answer. To say "Ignoring the law wouldn't be as bad as people think" is unpersuasive to me -- and I've given it considerable thought.

Clausar,

I laughed too, but had been reading other Fodor's threads, so it wasn't my only laugh of the day.

pantsabunch

I think Spain is a beautiful country and one of the most delightful in Europe. Don't let any of this put you off going there.

Aduchamp1

Of course hooded protests are new to Spain. Gee, I wonder where they got the idea?

Maybe it is only hundreds of years old and steeped in religious history. For those of you who do not know, the pictures below are traditional processions and garb during Semana Santa, Holy Week, in Sevilla.

And, of course, the Tayvon Martin murder, occured in the disatnt past-a month ago. Maybe Zeppole also saw the Spanish protestors carrying Skittles and iced tea as well.

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isc...2l8l8l0.pfwe.1.

_____

As far as Greece and Russia is concerned, this is as likely as combining the musicals Grease and Raisin.

thursdaysd

Really, the unfortunate OP is likely to decide that it is Fodors that is dangerous! Most of these ramblings belong in the Lounge, if anywhere, for heaven's sake start a new thread over there.

Aduchamp1

Yes, we would hate for a visitor to Spain, to learn something about Spain besides besides restaurants and hotels.

crckwc1

As the OP, let me thank each of you for reassuring me about travel in Spain and Portugal, and further thank you for the interesting reading on the history, the politics, the economy, and the beggars in said countries. All our reservations are in place and we leave in one month -- looking forward to an interesting and rewarding trip. Now, if I could just figure out the electronic toll roads. LOL

ribeirasacra

Have a great trip...now if I could have written the toll guide clear I would have done..but it is the way it is... Horrible!

crckwc1

ribeirasacra, Your guide was a big help. Don't know what we would have done without that. Thank you!
k

ribeirasacra

Thank you.