Shooting in Saint Denis
Nov 18th, 2015, 06:09 AM
#21
In fact 7 of the suspects WERE arrested so this was clearly not a "shoot first, ask questions later" type operation.
IMO it is pointless to try to analyse what ISIS want us to do, with the hope of doing the opposite. THEY DO NOT CARE. They are the ultimate nihilists. Once we can come to terms with that, we may actually make some progress.
IMO it is pointless to try to analyse what ISIS want us to do, with the hope of doing the opposite. THEY DO NOT CARE. They are the ultimate nihilists. Once we can come to terms with that, we may actually make some progress.
Nov 18th, 2015, 06:46 AM
#22
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sandralist makes a valid point in the broad, general sense...and I tend to agree with it.
But, in this particular instance, there were several arrests made before this shootout. And one of the suspects blew herself up before she could be arrested. So, the perfectly valid concern may be misapplied in this particular case.
But, in this particular instance, there were several arrests made before this shootout. And one of the suspects blew herself up before she could be arrested. So, the perfectly valid concern may be misapplied in this particular case.
Nov 18th, 2015, 06:47 AM
#23
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Knee jerk? I doubt the French people will criticize the raid on Saint-Denis, but instead, applaud the good police work in dismantling a terrorist cell before they could slaughter more Parisians.
All the ivory-tower banter on police being too "reactive" in the face of real and impending danger is naive and misplaced.
All the ivory-tower banter on police being too "reactive" in the face of real and impending danger is naive and misplaced.
Nov 18th, 2015, 07:14 AM
#24
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Hollande keeps declaring "France is at war". However, since DAECH is not a country, he cannot formally declare war against this organization - as much as he might like to do so.
Frankly, if he wants to bomb the heck out of petroleum reserves, military compounds etc, why not? If France doesn't do it, somebody else surely will - the US was ahead of France on this and Putin is considering action.
The only knee-jerking I've seen has been on CNN, where there is a lot of reactionary supposition with no facts to back it up.
The naked guy was stripped to be certain that he was not carrying weapons, standard practice. He was not fat, but his genitals had certainly migrated back up into his body, which had nothing to do with today's temperature.
The other people living in the building were very fortunate that the police had good intelligence info, otherwise, they might have been shot. The two people who died were in the same apartment, surrounded by weapons and incendiary devices, so it's doubtful that they did not know each other.
Since only bits and pieces of body parts are scattered around the apartment, and since the whole floor collapsed under the blast, it will take time to identify the people involved. It might be wishful thinking to suppose - as CNN keeps insisting - that the "mastermind" would have been dumb enough to find himself stuck in this apartment.
Frankly, if he wants to bomb the heck out of petroleum reserves, military compounds etc, why not? If France doesn't do it, somebody else surely will - the US was ahead of France on this and Putin is considering action.
The only knee-jerking I've seen has been on CNN, where there is a lot of reactionary supposition with no facts to back it up.
The naked guy was stripped to be certain that he was not carrying weapons, standard practice. He was not fat, but his genitals had certainly migrated back up into his body, which had nothing to do with today's temperature.
The other people living in the building were very fortunate that the police had good intelligence info, otherwise, they might have been shot. The two people who died were in the same apartment, surrounded by weapons and incendiary devices, so it's doubtful that they did not know each other.
Since only bits and pieces of body parts are scattered around the apartment, and since the whole floor collapsed under the blast, it will take time to identify the people involved. It might be wishful thinking to suppose - as CNN keeps insisting - that the "mastermind" would have been dumb enough to find himself stuck in this apartment.
Nov 18th, 2015, 07:23 AM
#25
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/...cks/index.html
the body parts will show if the mastermind is one of the dead
the body parts will show if the mastermind is one of the dead
Nov 18th, 2015, 07:31 AM
#26
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I, too, think sandralist makes good points.
<73% of the French think that Hollande has done a good job with this situation. (90% on the left, 63% on the right)>
And the majority of Americans loved the idea of George W. Bush's war on terror--which included not only literal acts of war but an all-out assault on civil liberties of American citizens. Look where that got us.
<73% of the French think that Hollande has done a good job with this situation. (90% on the left, 63% on the right)>
And the majority of Americans loved the idea of George W. Bush's war on terror--which included not only literal acts of war but an all-out assault on civil liberties of American citizens. Look where that got us.
Nov 18th, 2015, 07:45 AM
#28
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'an avenging mob mentality, to the detriment of everyone's security'
Sometimes people talk or write just to hear themselves.
I fell a little bit safer now that some terrorists are into custody and I don't care if one chose to blow her up when asked to show her papers.
Sure, we should ask politely the papers of a suicide bomber :
- 'please milady, can you show us your papers ?'
- 'oh, but I'm half naked, please let me put on my bombvest.'
- 'certainly, lady, take your time'
- 'thank you so much, you are very civil'
BOOM
France has been following rules of a democratic country and have been asking suspected terrorists to accompany them in the cadre of the law.
The suspects chose to not obey.
They fired on the policemen. Hit some. They got return fire and suffered one casualty. Then another one blows itself up.
And you are telling us that you feel insecure after that ?
Some rumours say these nice persons were planning an attack on La Défense (must be confirmed) today.
I was in La Défense this morning. So I might have been blown to pieces had these nice people not been stopped.
And you choose to say that you feel that stopping them is done to the detriment of everybody's security ?
You mean yourself ? Miles away ? Or me, just where the attack could have taken place.
Something I don't get here.
Show me one parisian who feels bad about 2 terrorists shot by police when 129 of us are being buried.
N'importe quoi.
Sometimes people talk or write just to hear themselves.
I fell a little bit safer now that some terrorists are into custody and I don't care if one chose to blow her up when asked to show her papers.
Sure, we should ask politely the papers of a suicide bomber :
- 'please milady, can you show us your papers ?'
- 'oh, but I'm half naked, please let me put on my bombvest.'
- 'certainly, lady, take your time'
- 'thank you so much, you are very civil'
BOOM
France has been following rules of a democratic country and have been asking suspected terrorists to accompany them in the cadre of the law.
The suspects chose to not obey.
They fired on the policemen. Hit some. They got return fire and suffered one casualty. Then another one blows itself up.
And you are telling us that you feel insecure after that ?
Some rumours say these nice persons were planning an attack on La Défense (must be confirmed) today.
I was in La Défense this morning. So I might have been blown to pieces had these nice people not been stopped.
And you choose to say that you feel that stopping them is done to the detriment of everybody's security ?
You mean yourself ? Miles away ? Or me, just where the attack could have taken place.
Something I don't get here.
Show me one parisian who feels bad about 2 terrorists shot by police when 129 of us are being buried.
N'importe quoi.
Nov 18th, 2015, 07:50 AM
#30
It might be wishful thinking to suppose - as CNN keeps insisting - that the "mastermind" would have been dumb enough to find himself stuck in this apartment.>>
It appears that rarely do these so-called "masterminds" put themselves in danger - you'd think that their followers would notice that, but credulity seems to have few bounds in these organisations.
Still waiting to find out what SL thinks the French government should have done given the circumstances.
It appears that rarely do these so-called "masterminds" put themselves in danger - you'd think that their followers would notice that, but credulity seems to have few bounds in these organisations.
Still waiting to find out what SL thinks the French government should have done given the circumstances.
Nov 18th, 2015, 08:42 AM
#33
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Thank God for the raid in Saint Denis. Bravo to the French police. Hopefully more raids are coming to stop these lunatics.
66 suspects rounded up here in the U.S.
2 bomb threats to Air France yesterday. Planes had to be diverted and searched. One was from LA and the other from DC. My flight next year is DC to Paris. Scares the crap out of me. Anything the police can do to corral these people is fine with me.
66 suspects rounded up here in the U.S.
2 bomb threats to Air France yesterday. Planes had to be diverted and searched. One was from LA and the other from DC. My flight next year is DC to Paris. Scares the crap out of me. Anything the police can do to corral these people is fine with me.
Nov 18th, 2015, 09:02 AM
#35
One reason ISIS/Daech is attracting so many recruits is because it claims to be a caliphate. Control of territory is a pre-requisite to that claim. Dislodging ISIS from the territory it controls would therefore diminish its attraction. Not that that is enough on its own, but anything else is inadequate without it.
Nov 18th, 2015, 09:36 AM
#36
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GraceCO, no, I am not comparing the French response in the first few days after the attacks to what GWB and company achieved over the course of months and years. All I'm saying is, beware of all the bravo-ing.
It starts with legitimate actions to protect the citizenry, but it can end somewhere very different.
Conduct raids to apprehend suspects? Of course, who would disagree with this??
Bomb ISIS targets in Syria, and encourage allies to do so as well? Of course, why not take the battle to them?
Get embroiled in multiple wars in multiple countries with no clear end in sight? Not so fast...
Surveil citizens without their consent? If they're bad guys, yeah, but...
Frightened people are quick to give up what they think they don't need if they are told doing so will make them safer.
It starts with legitimate actions to protect the citizenry, but it can end somewhere very different.
Conduct raids to apprehend suspects? Of course, who would disagree with this??
Bomb ISIS targets in Syria, and encourage allies to do so as well? Of course, why not take the battle to them?
Get embroiled in multiple wars in multiple countries with no clear end in sight? Not so fast...
Surveil citizens without their consent? If they're bad guys, yeah, but...
Frightened people are quick to give up what they think they don't need if they are told doing so will make them safer.
Nov 18th, 2015, 09:39 AM
#38
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"66 suspects rounded up in the US"
That's one approach we tried with the IRA : internment .
Instead of putting up with continued, sickening violence aimed at innocent civilians, we decided to round them all up based on intelligence, rumour, knowledge of organisational structures.
It didn't work.
In the end, the IRA doctrine ran out probably because they realised that they wanted their kids to grow up with a four bedroom house and a BMW not facing the threat of death morning, noon and night.
That's one approach we tried with the IRA : internment .
Instead of putting up with continued, sickening violence aimed at innocent civilians, we decided to round them all up based on intelligence, rumour, knowledge of organisational structures.
It didn't work.
In the end, the IRA doctrine ran out probably because they realised that they wanted their kids to grow up with a four bedroom house and a BMW not facing the threat of death morning, noon and night.
Nov 18th, 2015, 09:56 AM
#40
Newbe, years ago I was under surveillance by the FBI
unknownst to me til they paid me a visit. I was hanging out with a Russian Metalurigist here on an exchange program. They wanted to know about his friends I met and whatever.
unknownst to me til they paid me a visit. I was hanging out with a Russian Metalurigist here on an exchange program. They wanted to know about his friends I met and whatever.
