pariswat

Ah. It was difficult to read the thread, looks like a TA thread, full of holes.
So the attacks in Paris are being described as anti-jewish ?
The several sources are Foxnews and Guardian I gather ?

kerouac

From Haaretz:

"For French Jews, a new reality: Under attack for being French, not Jewish"

bilboburgler

I'm not sure what the point of the debate is:

is anyone suggesting

1) we stand aside and let them attack the Jews?
2) that's ok after all ......(whatever nonsense one wants to put here)
3) they were idiots for attacking good catholics/white people/baptists etc etc?

I hope not

I would have thought the attack was on the people who were killed and wounded and in an attempt to make non-muslims fear muslims (and visa versa).

It would appear they were nasty enough though clearly not very competent in the human damage and certainly from these very dialogues somewhat effective in the fear-generation, only time will tell if common sense will resolve that.

kerouac

<i>I would have thought the attack was on the people who were killed and wounded and in an attempt to make non-muslims fear muslims (and visa versa).</i>

I don't think that is true. It was an attack on the French way of life, which is shared by just about all faiths (and non faiths) in France -- music, having a good time, men and women allowed to mix together in a stadium, all of those horrible things that Daech hates. Don't forget that they think that most other Muslims are infidels, even Al Qaeda. All of the "fellow" Muslims that they have killed in Iraq and Syria far surpass the number of non Muslim victims around the world.

And, just to take the Stade de France as an example, about half of the French national football team is Muslim as are probably at least 20% of the spectators at a match like that. But maybe somebody else here will try to prove that it is actually a big synagogue.

bilboburgler

kerouac, in a way I hope you are right, but Daesh's most likely recruiting ground is going to be fearful muslims, after all out of 1.5 billion you only need a small part of a percentage to give you a stream of dupes. Like your football team we need to stick together.

pariswat

Don't even need a muslim.

The terrorist girl who got shot in St Denis was a French, totally lost and 'converted' overnight sometimes end 2014 - early 2015 if I understood correctly.

She was just an easy prey and got recruited.

PalenQ

I woukld think Rue Rosiers - long a target of anti-Semitic actions, would be about the safest place in Paris to be - much be tons of open and unseen security here. Rsoier's Jewish merchants should not suffer because of attacks elsewhere out of unfounded IMO fears of this one would think higholy surveilled street - running thru the heart of the Jewish quarter but also a hot spot for going out for many at night.

StCirq

Rue des Rosiers hasn't been the "heart of the Jewish Quarter" for some time now, except for about a two-block stretch. The "Jewish Quarter" has moved elsewhere. Nonetheless, I agree it should be a perfectly safe place to be these days.

PalenQ

It's the symbolic historic heart of the Jewish quarter with synagogues, stores, etc - at least five years ago it were that way when I last visited - regardless due to its history it would be a natural target even though casual and formal dining places yes now are taking over it bit by bit (no pun intended!).

tower

Kerouac wrote "......<i>try to prove it is actually a big synagogue</i>

Uncool, uncalled-for remark, in the wake of such a tragic attack on Paris. Historically, true colors eventually come out. For shame, young man.

pariswat

Tower

Read the other posts and also the other threads before coming to a hasty conclusion.

I found his post absolutely spot on, and funny.
In the wake of such tragic attacks, it is a proof of intelligence to keep both one's intelligence and humour.

For from uncool. Very far.

StCirq

The rue des Rosiers wouldn't be a "natural target" unless Daech were targeting Jews, which they don't appear to be. To add on to kerouac's post, I believe the only statement Daech released regarding their attacks on Paris made it clear that what they opposed was the "pernicious" (their word) lifestyle of Parisians - men and women together, music, dancing...all the things they abhor (but no doubt hypocritically indulge in). They didn't mention Jews. They didn't mention Muslims. Or any other religion. It was a lifestyle they mentioned, and as far as I can recall, only that one statement.

And as far as recruitment goes, I read recently that more than 3,800 French citizens have gone to Syria and elsewhere to be trained for Daech, a good deal more than from any other European nation. So maybe their most fruitful recruiting grounds don't involve fearful Muslims, unless the majority of recruited French are fearful Muslims.

kerouac

However, it has been pointed out that per capita, Belgium is the country that has sent the greatest proportion of Daech recruits to Syria, followed by -- I think but am not sure -- Denmark.

PalenQ

The same folks and ilk who attacked Charlie Hebdo are all gone away? Seems Rue des Rosiers would be target for them but I guess that groups has simply vanished - NOT! That street I would think again has beaucopus security in place simply because of its history and synagogues, large or small. symbolic.

kerouac

The Jewish population of Paris lives mostly in the 19th arrondissement and in the suburb of Sarcelles. Rue des Rosiers is just a symbolic place from the past.

IMDonehere

Kerouac also wrote:

"Real" Jewish places would have been closed for the Sabbath.

And

Since the Jewish population was not at all targeted in the most recent attacks of November 13th, I think that the Jews of Paris are feeling more relieved than worried.

_____________________________________________


It is pure arrogance to speak for anyone else, let alone a group to which you do not belong. The crack about a "real" Jews is an ongoing debate and the religious fundamentalists in Israel are trying to redefine it something that has been generally accepted for centuries. It is also a source a derision among the different movements within Judaism. It is also been an excuse to expand persecution in the past including France. Kerouac's insensitivity and ignorance is just another nettle.

And to say that the Jews worried relieved than worried about November 13, is pure arrogance and self-serving.

Maybe the better question is why are Jews leaving France at the greatest rate since the end of WWII and that was before Nov. 13.

Arrogance could be part of that answer.

Here is article dated Oct 24

http://www.timesofisrael.com/3-jews-...ack-in-france/

Here is an article from this summer,

http://www.ibtimes.com/attacks-franc...europe-2006003

Indeed, Kerouac, the Jews must be relieved someone else is being attacked.

fuzzbucket

Many of you are quoting articles written by people who live in places far from rue des Rosiers, or who are relying on ancient information.

I live around the corner from this street, my veterinarian is 2 doors off rue des Rosiers, I frequent the food shops here on a weekly basis, and I know that kerouac and ParisWat are regular visitors here.

The people who live on this street and run the businesses (no matter what their religious affiliation) have not changed the way they live or work. There is an increased amount of armed soldiers and undercover police covering not only rue des Rosiers, but rue des Francs-Bourgeois, Place des Vosges, rue des Tournelles and most of the rest of the Marais. This is to protect not only Jewish temples and businesses that have been threatened previously, but also many VIPs in the entertainment industry, ministers, museums, childcare facilities and schools of all denominations.

I walked around the 11th arrondissement this afternoon, and saw the same number of armed soldiers patrolling this area, which is mainly populated by Arabs, Muslims, Africans and other immigrants.

I have to say that most of you who do not live here - and especially journalists who do not live in Paris - don't know what you're talking about.

IMDonehere

So, Paris and the French, should be judged by a few blocks while there are severe problems nearby?

The articles I cited were about more than Rue Des Rosiers and unless Scotty can beam you directly to a falafel stand, one must pass through other areas.

Disprove the facts stated in the articles above.

pariswat

Will not try to disprove any commetn we can find in any newspaper - I just don't care if people are Jews or Muslims and don't give a toss about journalists writing from thousands of miles away whose aim is to sell (well maybe not them but their articles will not be published if it doesn't sell).

There is absolutely nothing to substantiate that the attacks were done where they took place because of Jewish owners.

Now, yes there are antisemitic attacks in Paris, in France, in Belgium (we had a series of desecration of jewish cemeteries - in France or in Belgium I forget) and justice took care of it because France is not more antisemitic than antimuslim.

I'm tired of these discussions about minorities.
If people are afraid of going into specific areas because these areas are 'classified' as 'belonging' to a specific group by people aware or not of what they say, so be it.

I just don't pay attention, I will go into these areas, as well as in 'no go zones' defined such by other writers.

You'll always have some stupid racist basterds (some kind of redudancy here, aren't they all?) who will attack another religion/ethnic group/colour of skin.

So what ? There is no more risk going in rue des Gosiers as in any other street in Paris.

Are Jews more at risk in Paris ? I don't know and I don't know how racists spot Jews - personnaly I can't.

My wife just told me that one of our friends had been invited by her family living in Israel who told her that maybe she'd feel safer in Israel.
I found this funny, then I asked my wife and said, 'ah, she is jewish ?'. Been knowing her for 25 years. The friend, not my wife ;-)

IMDonehere

Pariswat writes:

I'm tired of these discussions about minorities.
____

Well too bad. We are talking about people's lives here. And just because you cannot face reality does not mean deep problems do not exist

Here are facts from the French, not some damn foreigner whose support, sympathy, and money you gladly accept.

Fact:

Jews are leaving France at the highest rate since WWII

Fact:
The number of reported anti-Semitic incidents in France increased exponentially during the first quarter of 2015, compared to the corresponding period the year before, a French watchdog group found. The country has seen an 84 percent uptick in anti-Semitic hate crimes since four Jewish shoppers at a kosher supermarket in Paris were killed by an Islamist gunman after the Charlie Hebdo murders, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported.

The watchdog, Service de Protection de la Communauté Juive (SPCJ), counted 508 anti-Semitic incidents between January and May this year, compared to just 276 incidents the year earlier. Almost a quarter of those attacks were classified by the organization as violent. Most of the other incidents were reportedly death threats, JTA said.
_________
One might suspect that arrogance and resistance to facts part of the problem in France.